All Ireland Senior Hurling Championship (Liam McCarthy Cup) 2021

Figerty

Clareman wrote: »

Absolutely, its something Clare should have done but didn't. In rugby you'll often see kickers take the full minute, couple of delayed scrums and stuff like that, game management, something Clare didn't do.

Yep. And that is a major flaw in the rule.

Clareman

Figerty wrote: »

Yep. And that is a major flaw in the rule.

I think 10 minutes is too long in hurling, 5 minutes would probably be fairer considering the penalty is awarded as well

Mantis Toboggan

Clareman wrote: »

I think 10 minutes is too long in hurling, 5 minutes would probably be fairer considering the penalty is awarded as well

There's no need for a sin bin, the penalty and yellow card is punishment enough.

formerlyET

Mantis Toboggan wrote: »

There's no need for a sin bin, the penalty and yellow card is punishment enough.

I'm coming around to that idea. But what do you if it's a bad strike.

Mantis Toboggan

formerlyET wrote: »

I'm coming around to that idea. But what do you if it's a bad strike.

Red card

Happyilylost

formerlyET wrote:

I'm coming around to that idea. But what do you if it's a bad strike.

Smart an idea as there is. Point of a defender pulling someone down is to stop a goal. Giving a penalty negates the offence (clear cut chance to score a goal) teams if set up correctly can rack up a decent score in ten minutes.

Teams will always adapt to all of this as it becomes more prevalent. Training matches to deal with it, 14 behind the ball, time wasting and so on. Straight cut penalty and get on with it might suit hurling better.

breezy1985

blackcard wrote: »

How could grabbing a person's hurley be interpreted as pulling down?

Well if you pull his hurley down 5cm that's still pulling it down.
Bad wording though as I already said

breezy1985

Mantis Toboggan wrote: »

There's no need for a sin bin, the penalty and yellow card is punishment enough.

I'm repeating myself I know but I think a bigger penalty area would have been better.

pajoguy

breezy1985 wrote: »

I'm repeating myself I know but I think a bigger penalty area would have been better.

Maybe a line parallel with the sideline 15/20 yards in from each sideline from the 21 to the end line. It seemed extreme as he was almost on the sideline on sunday. Penalty would have been enough of a punishment although it was wreckless in fairness and a red may have been in Owens mind too.... Not a fan of his at all but he has been hung out to dry.

dastardly00

Mantis Toboggan wrote: »

There's no need for a sin bin, the penalty and yellow card is punishment enough.

I'm not so sure. If there is no sin bin, and since there is always the chance that the penalty can be missed or saved (like Horgan's one), then the defending team will have no second thoughts about cynically fouling an attacker who is more than likely to score.

pajoguy

dastardly00 wrote: »

I'm not so sure. If there is no sin bin, and since there is always the chance that the penalty can be missed or saved (like Horgan's one), then the defending team will have no second thoughts about cynically fouling an attacker who is more than likely to score.

Not too many penalties are saved though. It was far from a guaranteee he was going to score had he not been taken down. 1 on 1 from 21 yards is reward enough after nearly been in row A of the mackey stand.

breezy1985

pajoguy wrote: »

Maybe a line parallel with the sideline 15/20 yards in from each sideline from the 21 to the end line. It seemed extreme as he was almost on the sideline on sunday. Penalty would have been enough of a punishment although it was wreckless in fairness and a red may have been in Owens mind too.... Not a fan of his at all but he has been hung out to dry.

Ide go similar dimensions to the basketball 3 point line on the sides where there is little room between the penalty line and end line. The current D is probably enough round the front of goal

Pogue eile

pajoguy wrote: »

Not too many penalties are saved though. It was far from a guaranteee he was going to score had he not been taken down. 1 on 1 from 21 yards is reward enough after nearly been in row A of the mackey stand.

And herein lies the biggest problem, you are giving the same punishment for what Eoin Murphy did and what McCarthy did. Imagine if the Wexford penalty was saved and Murphy hadn't been sin binned, that would be very wrong.

Charlie69

Pogue eile wrote: »

And herein lies the biggest problem, you are giving the same punishment for what Eoin Murphy did and what McCarthy did. Imagine if the Wexford penalty was saved and Murphy hadn't been sin binned, that would be very wrong.

Spot on, totally agree.... but surely the very severe punishment of a conceded penalty and a man sin binned has to be for a cynical foul on a player who was prevented from scoring a certain goal, not for a foul on a player who had... let's face it very little chance of scoring a goal.

I'm not saying you're suggesting otherwise by the way pogue eile.

Mantis Toboggan

The wally Walsh goal, when he won the ball out wide did we think that a goal chance? He was further out than Morris.

Charlie69

Mantis Toboggan wrote: »

The wally Walsh goal, when he won the ball out wide did we think that a goal chance? He was further out than Morris.

No... but had he been fouled while attempting to field the ball do you think he should have been awarded a penalty and his opponent sent to the line? ... Absolutely no chance. That's the whole point I suppose.

Charlie69

Charlie69 wrote: »

No... but had he been fouled while attempting to field the ball do you think he should have been awarded a penalty and his opponent sent to the line? ... Absolutely no chance.

Double post deleted

Charlie69

Pogue eile wrote: »

And herein lies the biggest problem, you are giving the same punishment for what Eoin Murphy did and what McCarthy did. Imagine if the Wexford penalty was saved and Murphy hadn't been sin binned, that would be very wrong.

I suppose I'm flipping your point the other way... to give McCarthy the same punishment as Murphy got is just crazy.

formerlyET

Charlie69 wrote: »

I suppose I'm flipping your point the other way... to give McCarthy the same punishment as Murphy got is just crazy.

How can you justify using the word crazy? Nothing crazy about it, read the rule.

formerlyET

Charlie69 wrote: »

Spot on, totally agree.... but surely the very severe punishment of a conceded penalty and a man sin binned has to be for a cynical foul on a player who was prevented from scoring a certain goal, not for a foul on a player who had... let's face it very little chance of scoring a goal.

I'm not saying you're suggesting otherwise by the way pogue eile.

Is that the terminology of the rule, is it?

'a certain goal' and 'very little chance of scoring a goal.'

Would it be hypocritical to change the wording of a rule or its logic to suit a "line of thinking", to prove a point?

In your opinion, he had very little chance of scoring a goal.

And in the opinion of Fergal Horgan - any inter-county player in possession past the 20 is capable of producing a goal scoring opportunity.

And in the opinion of Owens, he obviously thought he had a goal scoring opportunity.

Two inter county all-ireland referees with decades of experience at the highest level...two of best modern refs we have...

Charlie69

formerlyET wrote: »

How can you justify using the word crazy? Nothing crazy about it, read the rule.

Listen ET.... I'm all for punishing cynical fouls... stop taking this personally, I genuinely believe we want the same thing... to improve the game.

But the punishment has to fit the crime.... to issue the same sanction for the two fouls mentioned is just wrong and if the rule is that vauge then its wrong and needs to be changed or modified.
As I said we want to improve the game... if referees are going to give penalties and sin bins for a tackle that far from goal out on the sideline then the game is in trouble. You can't give a penalty and a sin bin based on the premise that a forward might score a sensational goal of the season contender.
In my opinion it has to be a clear cut open goal opportunity. Otherwise every foul inside the 20 metre line is now a penalty and a sin bin.... that can't be right.

formerlyET

I think the sin bin element might have to be gotten rid of. Perhaps the rule could be changed to subbing the player for ten mins - but the team does not go down to 14 or just get rid of it of the ten min binning. But there must be a deterrent to get rid of cynical fouling - there was too much of it last year.

breezy1985

formerlyET wrote: »

I think the sin bin element might have to be gotten rid of. Perhaps the rule could be changed to subbing the player for ten mins - but the team does not go down to 14 or just get rid of it of the ten min binning. But there must be a deterrent to get rid of cynical fouling - there was too much of it last year.

I don't think the sin bin bit is the controversial part under the current rule rather the penalty bit

Charlie69

formerlyET wrote: »

I think the sin bin element might have to be gotten rid of. Perhaps the rule could be changed to subbing the player for ten mins - but the team does not go down to 14 or just get rid of it of the ten min binning. But there must be a deterrent to get rid of cynical fouling - there was too much of it last year.

I completely agree but as I said the punishment has to fit the crime. For a foul like the one on Jake Morris a free (and a fairly certain point conceded) and a yellow card is a fitting sanction and no need for any rule change. In no way was McCarthy trying to cynically prevent a goal scoring opportunity.

Charlie69

breezy1985 wrote: »

I don't think the sin bin bit is the controversial part under the current rule rather the penalty bit

I have no problem with both penalty and sin bin for a blatant cynical foul on a certain goal chance.... We already have rules to deal with every other type of foul.

terryrogers

formerlyET wrote: »

Is that the terminology of the rule, is it?

'a certain goal' and 'very little chance of scoring a goal.'

Would it be hypocritical to change the wording of a rule or its logic to suit a "line of thinking", to prove a point?

In your opinion, he had very little chance of scoring a goal.

And in the opinion of Fergal Horgan - any inter-county player in possession past the 20 is capable of producing a goal scoring opportunity.

And in the opinion of Owens, he obviously thought he had a goal scoring opportunity.

Two inter county all-ireland referees with decades of experience at the highest level...two of best modern refs we have...

Disingenuous post. You make it sound like it is Horgan's opinion that Owens made the right decision. No referee or knowledgeable hurling person has come out and said that Owens' call was correct, as far as I'm aware. And he's not one of the best modern refs we have in my opinion, far from it. I've no idea how he's gotten 3 AI finals His performance in the last 10 mins of the '18 final was his worst display for me, where he almost won Galway the game.

People need to stop this nonsense of trying to back Owens on this, it was a ludicrous call as Jackie Tyrell put it. It's just a relief that it wasn't knockout and at least McCarthy and Clare live to fight another day.

formerlyET

Charlie69 wrote: »

Listen ET.... I'm all for punishing cynical fouls... stop taking this personally,

Fair enough. Any ill feeling on my part is squashed.

Charlie69

formerlyET wrote: »

Fair enough. Any ill feeling on my part is squashed.

Fair play.... Never any ill feeling here ET.... as I said we both want the same thing..

Sheep breeder

Grats wrote: »

Former ref Barry Kelly in support of Owens says that the sin bin rule was rushed in. Refs didn't have time to assess it such as in the Walsh Cup.

He also says - “It was a blatant yellow card but I couldn’t believe it was a sin-bin and a penalty. It wasn’t a cynical foul, it wasn’t Seán Cavanagh on (Conor) McManus. It was very rough but cynical has to be that there is a bit of time to think, ‘I’m pulling this lad down’ and it’s pre-meditated. McCarthy’s actions were instinctive and it was a huge moment in a game,” Kelly said.

As I said previously, the episode is about Clare, not Tipp. In acknowledging that Owens got it wrong, nobody is having a go at Tipp. But some in the minority arguing that Owens was correct are trying to make it an anti Tipp issue. Pundits, former refs, majority of supporters etc agree that Owens got it wrong. Singling out a particular pundit or supporter for unnecessary vitriol.

Good post, nail on the head

formerlyET

https://twitter.com/gaaleinster/status/1412504696997175296?s=20

Something happening in Kildare

PTH2009

formerlyET wrote: »

https://twitter.com/gaaleinster/status/1412504696997175296?s=20

Something happening in Kildare

Fair play to Kildare, now playing Offaly in the QFs

Under 20/21 grade can throw up some shocks now and again. Westmeath beating an Eddie Brennan managed Kilkenny team a few years ago

External Association

PTH2009 wrote: »

Fair play to Kildare, now playing Offaly in the QFs

Under 20/21 grade can throw up some shocks now and again. Westmeath beating an Eddie Brennan managed Kilkenny team a few years ago

That Kildare win tops that as Westmeath would usually be a tier ahead of Kildare.

Absolutely brilliant to see a result like that. Kildare have produced some great hurlers, like Pat Dunny, over the years.

Very good win for Laois too. Big score but maybe Antrim aren't good this year.

External Association

Regarding Kildare's U20s win over Wexford, the senior hurling championship is great as is but if 4 or 5 more teams reached the top tier it would be amazing.

PTH2009

Great weekend of hurling awaits

Waterford vs Laois in the qualifiers should be a straight forward win for Waterford but same was said a few years ago and Laois beat Dublin in the Championship. Really hope Waterford score big in this match as its badly needed. Heeding up to this and its feel great finally getting back to games. Feel Laois will put up a massive fight. Hoping for Waterford by 5+ but a loss would be damaging

Wexford vs Clare will be a close one and is very hard to call. Clare have be a torn in Wexfords side the last few years in the Championship beating them twice in the last few years. Thjnk Davy will go If Wexford lose here but I'd say Lohans job is safe no matter the result. Feel this game could go to extra time with Wexford getting the win

Dublin vs Kilkenny in the Leinster Final is a bit of a novel pairing for the final. You'd expect Kilkenny to win it but Dublin have no fear of them and are in bonus territory. Kilkenny by 3

Limerick vs Tipperary in the Munster final could be a cracker and it's the one game Sheedy will be gunning to win. Limerick going for historic 3 in a row. Going for Tipp by 2 in a great game

formerlyET

Davy not naming the wexford team until midnight again?

conor05

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117620427#Comment_117620427

The Joe McDonagh final is live on TV at 5pm.

Westmeath V Kerry.

Should be a good game, both teams have some really good forwards.

PTH2009

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117622307#Comment_117622307

Yeah should be a good game and Kerry would of learnt a lot from playing in last years final and Westmeath beaten in 2 finals in the past few years. Ill be delighted for whoever comes out the winners

If Kerry win it they will play in the Leinster Championship instead of going into Munster

TheMilkyPirate

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117622228#Comment_117622228

Waiting even longer this time by the looks of it

breezy1985

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117622430#Comment_117622430

Will that still happen if we are back to round robin ?

PTH2009

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117623538#Comment_117623538

Yep think so

Farcical as it would also be giving the Leinster group an extra team (Galway,Dublin, Kilkenny, Wexford, Laois and Kerry/Westmeath)

gormdubhgorm

Just scanned the first few pages of this thread some poster had Antrim to beat Dublin. 🤨

Another poster said Galway were a team to watch - pedestrian win in Leinster predicted 😃

Fast forward a few weeks and I see a poster has predicted KK by 3 against Dublin for today's game. Suddenly in a few weeks there is less underestimation of the boys in blue! Now some seem to think KK will put it up to KK!

But for me for Dublin to have to stand a chance of winning today. They have to work like dogs and hassle KK non stop. Will be very difficult to do in this heat. Plus the vast majority of Dublin’s frees have to go over though stranger things have happened!

breezy1985

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117623692#Comment_117623692

Im pretty sure that Kerry in Leinster would only have been for the pandemic knockout championship

TheMilkyPirate

Terrible from Wexford so far. Clare running riot

awec

Clare strolling this.

PTH2009

Up in Nowlan Park now myself and very surprised with the score in the Clare game

Who will be replacing Davy? What will his next move be?

citykat

That’s two strikes from O’Connor and no card.

Brian017

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117623692#Comment_117623692

I’m sick and tired of the GAA shoehorning teams into the Leinster Championship. Kerry is in Munster, there’s a Munster championship. Kerry should be playing in it whenever they get promoted. What’s so sacrilegious about a member county board playing in the Munster Championship?

TheMilkyPirate

Wexford getting going now set up for a box office second half

Boom__Boom

Biggest surprise in the Waterford game is that the ref actually blew for a thrown hand-pass.

1-8 to 0-4 at the water-break.

Waterford a bit wasteful with 6 wides in the quarter.