Encouraging girls and women into certain fields

joseywhales

As someone who has always been stem focused for the last 20 years at least, I always find these programs to be well intended but a bit too busy. As a kid I attended endless "fun science" events intended to encourage interest. But if you really have a curiosity about these subjects, the most important thing to teach a child is simple maths with a pencil and paper, problems to solve with interesting and curious twists, critical thinking, some general outline in classical philosophical ideas and why in general we do what we do. The desire will come from these "Aha" moments and building the mental framework and having confidence in their ability, it will not be done by telling them they should be interested in science or by the promise of money or status. We want people to do their jobs because they like them if we can, not pushing square pegs in round holes.

joseywhales

Hamsterchops wrote: »

We have a field near us but it's full of nettles.

You might want a good sized blanket handy

conorhal

biko wrote: »

From HBR https://hbr.org/2015/03/the-5-biases-pushing-women-out-of-stem
Pattern 1: Prove-it-Again. Two-thirds of the women interviewed, and two-thirds of the women surveyed, reported having to prove themselves over and over again – their successes discounted, their expertise questioned.
Pattern 2: The Tightrope. Women need to behave in masculine ways in order to be seen as competent—but women are expected to be feminine.
Pattern 3: The Maternal Wall. When professional women have children, they often find themselves running into a wall: their commitment and competence are questioned, and opportunities start drying up.
Pattern 3: The Maternal Wall. When professional women have children, they often find themselves running into a wall: their commitment and competence are questioned, and opportunities start drying up.
Pattern 5: Isolation. Our new study uncovered a fifth pattern of bias that seems to apply mainly to black and Latina women. On our survey, 42% of black women agreed that “I feel that socially engaging with my colleagues may negatively affect perceptions of my competence

I've worked with some extremely competent women in engineering fields, possibly the very best engineer I ever worked with was a woman.

I've also worked some extremely incompetent women in the field, I'll let you guess which would routinely rattle off those talking points....

fits

I knew before opening it that this thread would annoy me and it hasn’t disappointed.

Did STEM degree a good few years ago. All of my classmates are doing very well for themselves. Not really comparable to men doing ballet A good basic STEm degree can open all sorts of doors.

jrosen

Should we be introducing science and more critical thinking in primary school? Have an actual science teacher in the school and every class takes science twice a week?

Or 1st years having to take all subjects for first year and only choosing in 2nd year? If kids are not being exposed to these topics then we cant really expect them to show an interest.

.anon.

Leg End Reject wrote: »

Pitch to aptitudes and interests, not genders. It's that simple.

And do it from an early age. I went to an all-boys secondary school, but there were two girls in our physics class because the subject wasn't available in the local girls' school.

mohawk

jrosen wrote: »

Should we be introducing science and more critical thinking in primary school? Have an actual science teacher in the school and every class takes science twice a week?

Or 1st years having to take all subjects for first year and only choosing in 2nd year? If kids are not being exposed to these topics then we cant really expect them to show an interest.

My secondary school made science mandatory until Junior Cert. Friends in other schools didn’t go near science because they thought it would be too hard. Give kids a taste of everything and let them follow their interests and strengths then.

joseywhales

biko wrote: »

From HBR https://hbr.org/2015/03/the-5-biases-pushing-women-out-of-stem
Pattern 1: Prove-it-Again. Two-thirds of the women interviewed, and two-thirds of the women surveyed, reported having to prove themselves over and over again – their successes discounted, their expertise questioned.
Pattern 2: The Tightrope. Women need to behave in masculine ways in order to be seen as competent—but women are expected to be feminine.
Pattern 3: The Maternal Wall. When professional women have children, they often find themselves running into a wall: their commitment and competence are questioned, and opportunities start drying up.
Pattern 3: The Maternal Wall. When professional women have children, they often find themselves running into a wall: their commitment and competence are questioned, and opportunities start drying up.
Pattern 5: Isolation. Our new study uncovered a fifth pattern of bias that seems to apply mainly to black and Latina women. On our survey, 42% of black women agreed that “I feel that socially engaging with my colleagues may negatively affect perceptions of my competence

What I find interesting about this is that as a man I experience all of these patterns except for pattern 3 obviously. Pattern 2 annoys me, pattern 5 is just good judgement, socialising with work people is something I've always kept to a minimum. Pattern 1 is a positive I believe, if you want a high performing team, you must constantly be reviewing, questioning, challenging everyone, noone can be safe from criticism and they should not take it personally.

Coillte_Bhoy

Anyone else see the thread title and think of that scene with Bridie in The Ballroom of Romance?

Kermit.de.frog

Was about to post an "in before the lock" based solely on the thread title and wish the OP farewell :eek:

biko

biko wrote: »

From HBR https://hbr.org/2015/03/the-5-biases-pushing-women-out-of-stem
Pattern 1: Prove-it-Again. Two-thirds of the women interviewed, and two-thirds of the women surveyed, reported having to prove themselves over and over again – their successes discounted, their expertise questioned

As a man I knew once I was given a start date I just had to show up at 8.30 and I'd never be asked anything again.

jam_mac_jam

jrosen wrote: »

Should we be introducing science and more critical thinking in primary school? Have an actual science teacher in the school and every class takes science twice a week?

Or 1st years having to take all subjects for first year and only choosing in 2nd year? If kids are not being exposed to these topics then we cant really expect them to show an interest.

I completely agree with this. Get them interested as young as possible and they are more likely to know if they are good at it.

Kids have a natural curiosity and generally like science and are interested in nature at primary school level. Let them do some fun experiments and not leave it till secondary.

rightmove

.anon. wrote: »

And do it from an early age. I went to an all-boys secondary school, but there were two girls in our physics class because the subject wasn't available in the local girls' school.

If yo look at linked in learning you'd swear men didnt even exist. Search TED up on youtube and first 10 vidz will be diverse. Diverse is everyone but white men. Saying that black men dont seem to get any platform time either.

ByTheSea2019

I definitely don't agree that if you've any interest in STEM you've probably been interested in from childhood. As someone who is entering a mathematical career later than most, thank God I was incentivised to do honours maths by the school system because this would not be an option now if I had not and I had no interest at the time.

CageWager

jrosen wrote: »

Should we be introducing science and more critical thinking in primary school? Have an actual science teacher in the school and every class takes science twice a week?

That would all go great until the day the critical thinking science teacher shows up to teach biology.

Yellow_Fern

Can we stop telling kids that there are loads of jobs in STEM as its just a misleading statement as so many fields in STEM have terrible job prospects. Certain areas like quality control in pharma and IT have loads of jobs but many other niches in biology and physics have far too many graduates for the available openings.

khalessi

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

I completely agree with this. Get them interested as young as possible and they are more likely to know if they are good at it.

Kids have a natural curiosity and generally like science and are interested in nature at primary school level. Let them do some fun experiments and not leave it till secondary.

We've been doing STEM for a few years in school and the kids love it. Great buzz watching them discussing planning, designing and constructing whatever project it is. It is a class they love forward to because they can get up move around, work in groups and have a bit of fun while they are doing it. We have a STEM programme from Jnr to 6th.

jrosen

khalessi wrote: »

We've been doing STEM for a few years in school and the kids love it. Great buzz watching them discussing planning, designing and constructing whatever project it is. It is a class they love forward to because they can get up move around, work in groups and have a bit of fun while they are doing it. We have a STEM programme from Jnr to 6th.

Sounds great.
Its not something thats across all schools though is it?

amen

amen wrote: »

Both my wife and I are science grads with some friends lecturing in universities and the ITs. We both graduated over 25 years ago. Approx 18% of my class was female. Engineers running at 10%

Yet after 20+ years of programmes to encourage stem it seems that the number of females in stem has actually decreased.

For some reason the interest in females pursing stem has dramatically decreased.

From talking to my daughters some of it relates to the stem promotion , others with engineering seen as a dirty manual job, boring lab jobs st.

Jordan Peterson was saying that in Sweden, where people have the most freedom to do what they want, there is increasingly a split where both men and women seem to prefer to follow traditional men/women careers. In other words, women are LESS likely to work in STEM careers, despite having the greatest opportunity to do so.

Which is completely fine. I feel sorry for any girl who feels a pressure to follow a STEM career in order to be a good feminist. Nobody needs that type of pressure. Vive la difference!

Galwayguy35

Often wondered why more women don't train to become electricians, the money seems to be good once qualified.

growleaves

meeeeh wrote: »

This thread is very old farts whinging how things were so much better when they were young.

Anyway I have a daughter who is very good at maths and a son who is very good at being pretty. It would be stupid not to let them reach their potential.

If you think the posters here are old farts, consider that George Bernard Shaw was making these same complaints in 1894. He claimed that women were being kept-out and denied the opportunity to compete with men as mathematicians. That was over 120 years ago.

It was shortly after Philipa Fawcett placed top in the Cambridge Tripos in 1890. Madame Curie was studying mathematics at the University of Paris in the 1890s.

kowloon

soupandpoitin wrote: »

My daughter's riding classes are 99% girls. No amount of advertising will change this.

The ad could just be that first line in it and there would be teenaged boys lining up around the block.

joseywhales

kowloon wrote: »

The ad could just be that first line in it and there would be teenaged boys lining up around the block.

Unfortunately there's a latency between hormonal development and smarts.

99nsr125

KaneToad wrote: »

I disagree with your assertion that some degrees are "useless" and that non STEM degrees are "easy" and "box ticking".

I say this as someone with a STEM degree.

I disagree with your disagreement

/Nelson
Ha ha

99nsr125

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

Can we stop telling kids that there are loads of jobs in STEM as its just a misleading statement as so many fields in STEM have terrible job prospects. Certain areas like quality control in pharma and IT have loads of jobs but many other niches in biology and physics have far too many graduates for the available openings.

Not a truer word said

Andrewf20

Deleted User wrote: »

Jordan Peterson was saying that in Sweden, where people have the most freedom to do what they want, there is increasingly a split where both men and women seem to prefer to follow traditional men/women careers. In other words, women are LESS likely to work in STEM careers, despite having the greatest opportunity to do so.

Which is completely fine. I feel sorry for any girl who feels a pressure to follow a STEM career in order to be a good feminist. Nobody needs that type of pressure. Vive la difference!

13:15 is where Jordan addresses the gender equality argument & I agree with him:

0lddog

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Often wondered why more women don't train to become electricians, the money seems to be good once qualified.

There are some, of course, but in many ways its a rotten life with a lot of 'out of hours' work needed. Site work is draining and can be really hard. Design work with stable office hours would be better ( very few women are fools when it comes to what matters in life - unlike men )

Two high paying professions where women are very well represented are IME solicitors & accountants.

So, who would rather run a filthy civil engineering site rather than work in a quiet solicitors office ?

99nsr125

0lddog wrote: »

There are some, of course, but in many ways its a rotten life with a lot of 'out of hours' work needed. Site work is draining and can be really hard. Design work with stable office hours would be better ( very few women are fools when it comes to what matters in life - unlike men )

Two high paying professions where women are very well represented are IME solicitors & accountants.

So, who would rather run a filthy civil engineering site rather than work in a quiet solicitors office ?

Somone who wants to do something real.

It's productive v parasitic

Pa ElGrande

The driving ideology behind pushing women into STEM subjects seems to be equity -- i.e equality of outcome. Since ~50% of the population is male therefore 50% of the people in STEM must be female and further subdivided along the lines of an intersectional victim hierarchy, yet when given a choice women pursue roles that suit them along sex typed roles.

The real head scratcher is Iran where 70% of of Iran's science and engineering students are women, also Saudi Arabia.

The STEM Paradox: Why are Muslim-Majority Countries Producing So Many Female Engineers?. The reason may not be what you expect part of it may be to delay getting married. As soon as you turn ~20 the family will force you to get married, however if you are going to university . . . "She doesn't want to get married yet, she is studying." and you get to pick a better class of husband. As well as that modern Iranian society and government policies put a lot of emphasis on university degrees and with high unemployment and not many opportunities for women this is something to differentiate themselves.

0lddog

99nsr125 wrote: »

Somone who wants to do something real.

It's productive v parasitic

Let us know how you get on explaining this to the good people that inhabit the legal and accountancy forums