US Police killing of 15 yo black girl Makiah Bryant MOD NOTE IN OP

EddieN75

Unfortunately this thread has descended into a disingenuous farce.

Good evening gentlemen.

Did you smash it

EddieN75 wrote: »

Unfortunately this thread has descended into a disingenuous farce.

Good evening gentlemen.

Descended?

beauf

Overheal wrote: »

The cartel killings we are discussing. Aren't they murder?

This thread is not about the cartel. You're trying to associate words which are not factually correct.

beauf

Overheal wrote: »

If the suspect does not die then she is not dead and her death is not excused as a lawful execution.

The intent of the officer can indeed be "shoot until the threat is no longer a threat" etc. but that does not mean the suspects death if it occurs cannot be lawfully justified. Since it is lawfully justified, I put forward that it is simply put an execution. To apply it to another context, a parent could lawfully execute an burglar that was an immediate threat to his/her family.

It's not an execution either.

Overheal

Donald Trump wrote: »

Simple question for you.


Does the deceased bear any responsibility or portion of the blame for her demise in your opinion?


0%, 1%, 10%, 100% etc. What would you say?

Yes, of course. It's not 0 and it's not 100% of blame. Under the law it could well be determined to be 100% of liability. "blame for her demise" is a big gray term. You could as well start veering off into foster care and abortions in that big gray space as guns and woke liberalism or the manufacturer of the knife and bullets or the color of someone's skin.

Overheal

beauf wrote: »

It's not an execution either.

Let's disagree to agree. Or, the other way around.

Overheal

beauf wrote: »

This thread is not about the cartel. You're trying to associate words which are not factually correct.

No, the question was about the Cartel, though.

I have argued how I believe it is factually correct. Anyone is welcome to disagree or strongly state their argument for refutation.

cloudatlas

Donald Trump wrote: »

You can see it clearly if you pause around 8.5 seconds.

But you wouldn't do that if you were just watching it on social media, you would just think that girl wanted to hit the other girl and he shot her. I don't know why people are getting upset with me there was a thread on reddit where they blew up the section with the knife, so it's as plain as day that loads of people could not see the knife on casual inspection.

Danzy

Overheal wrote: »

Since it is lawfully justified, I put forward that it is simply put an execution. To apply it to another context, a parent could lawfully execute an burglar that was an immediate threat to his/her family.

“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.” “The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.” “The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master – – that's all.”

Overheal

New video from the neighbors CCTV device shows Bryant/the suspect yelling "I'm gonna stab the **** out of you"

That's enough evidence in itself tbh that I don't see prosecutors attributing any charges to the officer.

A new video of the shooting by a police officer of 16-year-old Ma’Khia Bryant, taken by a neighbor’s security camera, has provided additional angles of the deadly incident from Tuesday.

The neighbor, Donovan Brinson, lives across the street and had a camera in his garage. In an interview with Fox News anchor Harris Faulkner, Brinson said that he and his wife had witnessed the argument that preceded the shooting, describing how Bryant and another girl (the one seen in the video in the bright pink outfit) were “upset about something” and “exchanging words” in the front yard.

In the video, Bryant can be heard shouting, “I’m gonna stab the f*ck out of you” before she lunges at the girl in pink with what appears to be a knife in her hand. The police officer then fired four shots, hitting Bryant. Officers at the scene attempted to resuscitate her but were unsuccessful.

Brinson said that before the shooting, he and his wife went back in the house, and shortly thereafter, he went to get something out of his car. “As I did that one of the girls locked another girl out of the house and they said something about how dare you lock me out of my mama’s house, this is my house, too. And I just kind of thought this is going to die down. They will unlock the door and figure it out and be done and over with.”

He went back inside and about five minutes later, Brinson said, they heard the shots. Hearing no retaliation shots, he figured it was a police officer. “So I went to my laundry room and looked outside and that’s when I saw Ma’Khia on the ground and everyone else in chaos.”

Brinson said he remembered his garage camera while the police officers were trying to resuscitate Bryant, and downloaded the video and gave a copy to the police on the scene.

Faulkner asked him what was his “interpretation” of the incident, based on what he had witnessed and watching his video afterwards, of the police officer who had “nine seconds” to “deal with a volatile situation.”

Brinson replied that the cop didn’t have many choices in that moment, and “only had seconds to respond.”

“From my point of view watching this, unfortunately the whole scenario put him in a bad spot,” he continued. “He could have either not fired and the young lady in pink could have got stabbed in the neck or fatally injured and then responded and shot and that would have been two young ladies possibly dead. Or he could have responded the way that he did and unfortunately one lady lost her life in the incident that probably could have been avoided.”


“The video doesn’t lie,” Brinson concluded. “There was an altercation, he responded and he reacted with what he thought was his best judgment…He did what he thought was best.”

https://www.mediaite.com/tv/im-gonna-stab-the-fck-out-of-you-garage-camera-captures-new-video-in-makhia-bryant-shooting/

beauf

Overheal wrote: »

No, the question was about the Cartel, though.

I have argued how I believe it is factually correct. Anyone is welcome to disagree or strongly state their argument for refutation.

You've argued nothing. You've just used multiple words incorrectly.

beakerjoe

Overheal wrote: »

New video from the neighbors CCTV device shows Bryant/the suspect yelling "I'm gonna stab the **** out of you"

That's enough evidence in itself tbh that I don't see prosecutors attributing any charges to the officer.



https://www.mediaite.com/tv/im-gonna-stab-the-fck-out-of-you-garage-camera-captures-new-video-in-makhia-bryant-shooting/

Im not too up on all media outlets state side, eho are Mediate?

One thing I hate about US is the one sided media.

Fox and CNN for example, choose what stories to cover to suit their agenda.

Lebron does something perceived as good, CNN shout about it, Fox stay silent. Lebron does something bad, Fox blitz their site with Lebron stories, CNN stays silent. These biased news outlets are a huge part of the divide in Amwrica.

Overheal

beakerjoe wrote: »

Im not too up on all media outlets state side, eho are Mediate?

One thing I hate about US is the one sided media.

Fox and CNN for example, choose what stories to cover to suit their agenda.

Lebron does something perceived as good, CNN shout about it, Fox stay silent. Lebron does something bad, Fox blitz their site with Lebron stories, CNN stays silent. These biased news outlets are a huge part of the divide in Amwrica.

I wouldn't qualify it as it outlet, or news in itself. It's a news blog, they 90% of the time just report a few paragraphs about who said what on which television channel that has people upset or whatever. They tried to paywall the other month like they were a real news site and it went so 180 so fast you'd miss it if you blinked. Is quick, efficient, and normally accompanied by clips. Few writers from multiple sides. Not a big outfit at all in terms of content or scope, and no first-hand journalism beyond the odd interview with TV personalities.

Donald Trump

cloudatlas wrote: »

But you wouldn't do that if you were just watching it on social media, you would just think that girl wanted to hit the other girl and he shot her. I don't know why people are getting upset with me there was a thread on reddit where they blew up the section with the knife, so it's as plain as day that loads of people could not see the knife on casual inspection.

You don't really see it at full speed. But if you press pause at the right time, then it is clear. When there is a still photo, you might think it could be photoshopped. It would be less likely that the video is altered. I wasn't sure because I couldn't see it at normal speed, then I pressed pause on the clip and there it was

Donald Trump

Overheal wrote: »

Yes, of course. It's not 0 and it's not 100% of blame. Under the law it could well be determined to be 100% of liability. "blame for her demise" is a big gray term. You could as well start veering off into foster care and abortions in that big gray space as guns and woke liberalism or the manufacturer of the knife and bullets or the color of someone's skin.

I've no idea what direction you are trying to veer things off into with foster care and abortion. The girl did a stupid thing and paid for it with her life. The fella who shot her made the right call. Or course it is more than unfortunate that she was killed from it, but in those few split seconds that he had to react, he made the right choice by firing (in my opinion). You have to judge him by what he knew at the time. You can't judge him on hindsight

Overheal

Donald Trump wrote: »

I've no idea what direction you are trying to veer things off into with foster care and abortion. The girl did a stupid thing and paid for it with her life. The fella who shot her made the right call. Or course it is more than unfortunate that she was killed from it, but in those few split seconds that he had to react, he made the right choice by firing (in my opinion). You have to judge him by what he knew at the time. You can't judge him on hindsight

I'm literally not, and that was the literal point I was making about veering into gray territory.

Donald Trump

Overheal wrote: »

I'm literally not, and that was the literal point I was making about veering into gray territory.

Ok. But saying that she was the author of her own misfortune is not veering off into any grey territory. Shots were fired at her because she had launched herself against a smaller girl, pinning her against a car and was swinging a knife at her. There is nothing more to it than that. That's what I can see. The cops there have guns because they need them. Too many civilians have them. These incidents are bound to follow

Overheal

Donald Trump wrote: »

Ok. But saying that she was the author of her own misfortune is not veering off into any grey territory. Shots were fired at her because she had launched herself against a smaller girl, pinning her against a car and was swinging a knife at her. There is nothing more to it than that. That's what I can see. The cops there have guns because they need them. Too many civilians have them. These incidents are bound to follow

And I wasn't challenging that assertion. I was just highlighting the problems with calling it 'blame' when it's much more focused to say she assumed the legal liability for the outcome. I think the neighbors video especially exonerates the officer in that regard and quite literally proves she was the author, she said the words.

irishgrover

Tokyo wrote:

Mod: I'm going to start banning people from here on in if there's another personalized comment rather than actual discussion of the topic.

To be completely honest, this **** annoys me as well. I know mods are voluntary etc etc but seriously

Student_111 wrote:

Watch here - trigger warning: extremely racist police shooting:

The op is very obviously either trolling or genuinely someone with special needs / limited intellectual capabilities

And yet the mods allow this kind of ****e to fester and then attempt to give it some form of legitimacy by pretending that the OP is anything other than a troll or intellectually challenged, whereas everybody knows that's a false premise...

Disappointing that a mod was in here immediately because I called out another poster in a couple of posts, but around half of the pages of this thread have been intentionally derailed into an argument about a word that same poster has decided is apt for the situation.

An execution for all intents and purposes is reserved for either the government of the day, or we use it if a force has the de facto power in that situation instead of the government.

A government ✅
A cartel running an area ✅
A group like ISIS ✅
Kidnappers ✅
Hostages being killed ✅
Police officers in the line of the duty ❌

If the police officer had incapacitated the teenager, and then shot her in the head, he would have demonstrated de facto control over the situation and it could be called an extrajudicial execution.

I have no idea why this conversation has been allowed to continue. The debate, and I'm being generous calling it that, is irrelevant to any particular case. It would be as much at home in threads about the Bataclan attack, but I don't remember anyone derailing those threads with semantics about what to call the justified shooting of terrorists. The poster should start a new thread if he or she wants to debate the usage of the word.

beakerjoe

Well while Ive been agreeing with you, I think resorting to calling someone childish names is enough to rightly warrant mod interjection.

Ive was frustrated during that exchange, but saying someone went full retard was uncalled for and out of line.

beakerjoe

beakerjoe wrote: »

Well while Ive been agreeing with you, I think resorting to calling someone childish names is enough to rightly warrant mod interjection.

Ive was frustrated during that exchange, but saying someone went full retard was uncalled for and out of line.

It's a line from Tropic Thunder, and I said they did it "with their language", which is attacking the posts, and not the poster.

jk23

LeBron James has to look at himself for that tweet about the police officer. He doesn't know all the facts yet he is coming out with "your next" to the police officer! A guy who has millions of followers on all platforms, Extremely irresponsible

beakerjoe

Deleted User wrote: »

It's a line from Tropic Thunder, and I said they did it "with their language", which is attacking the posts, and not the poster.

Im aware of the origin of the line, but the line appears to imply you were calling the poster a name.

I can see why mods acted.

beakerjoe

jk23 wrote: »

LeBron James has to look at himself for that tweet about the police officer. He doesn't know all the facts yet he is coming out with "your next" to the police officer! A guy who has millions of followers on all platforms, Extremely irresponsible

Dangerous. As bad as Trump. Inciting violence

beakerjoe

beakerjoe wrote: »

Im aware of the origin of the line, but the line appears to imply you were calling the poster a name.

I can see why mods acted.

I understand the irony that I am now arguing semantics, but if I say a poster is posting in a certain manner for shlts and giggles, then I am explicitly saying it's just an act.

Anyways, what does it matter.

irelandrover

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I understand the irony that I am now arguing semantics, but if I say a poster is posting in a certain manner for shlts and giggles, then I am explicitly saying it's just an act.

Anyways, what does it matter.

It matters. Saying its an execution implies that police are judge and executioner and can carry out sentencing and justice on the street.

Overheal

irelandrover wrote: »

It matters. Saying its an execution implies that police are judge and executioner and can carry out sentencing and justice on the street.

No, LEOs are not judges or juries, however the killing/execution when it occurs bypasses the judge and jury, prosecutors et al, ie. The rights to due process of a suspect who was an immediate threat to life. Due process in that regard is obviously impractical for the suspect so LEOs are imbued with qualified immunity to make an executive decision to kill a suspect in such regards.

beauf

[Deleted User] wrote: »

...
I have no idea why this conversation has been allowed to continue. ...

They obviously agree with the whataboutary and misrepresentation of the facts in order to stir up controversy. It's not unlike tabloid journalism, just through the medium of social media.

beauf

Overheal wrote: »

No, LEOs are not judges or juries, however the killing/execution when it occurs bypasses the judge and jury, prosecutors et al, ie. The rights to due process of a suspect who was an immediate threat to life. Due process in that regard is obviously impractical for the suspect so LEOs are imbued with qualified immunity to make an executive decision to kill a suspect in such regards.

It's still not an execution.

It's more like character assassination. Not simply of the cop but the police in general.

(the malicious and unjustified harming of a person's good reputation)

Overheal

beauf wrote: »

It's still not an execution.

It's more like character assassination. Not simply of the cop but the police in general.

(the malicious and unjustified harming of a person's good reputation)

Whose good reputation is being assassinated? By what? Huh?

irelandrover

Overheal wrote: »

No, LEOs are not judges or juries, however the killing/execution when it occurs bypasses the judge and jury, prosecutors et al, ie. The rights to due process of a suspect who was an immediate threat to life. Due process in that regard is obviously impractical for the suspect so LEOs are imbued with qualified immunity to make an executive decision to kill a suspect in such regards.

Definition of 'execution'

execution in British English
(ˌɛksɪˈkjuːʃən )

noun

1. the act or process of executing (carrying out a task)

2. the carrying out or undergoing of a sentence of death

3. the style or manner in which something is accomplished or performed; technique
as a pianist his execution is poor

4.
a. the enforcement of the judgment of a court of law

b. the writ ordering such enforcement


The above is the definition of an execution.

You said 2 and 4 apply. If 2 applies then the only person that could have done that is police. That means they were sentencer and executioner. If 4 applies they were the judgement of the court and the enforcer.

Overheal

irelandrover wrote: »

Definition of 'execution'

execution in British English
(ˌɛksɪˈkjuːʃən )

noun

1. the act or process of executing (carrying out a task)

2. the carrying out or undergoing of a sentence of death

3. the style or manner in which something is accomplished or performed; technique
as a pianist his execution is poor

4.
a. the enforcement of the judgment of a court of law

b. the writ ordering such enforcement


The above is the definition of an execution.

You said 2 and 4 apply. If 2 applies then the only person that could have done that is police. That means they were sentencer and executioner. If 4 applies they were the judgement of the court and the enforcer.

Well, 4 especially applies. https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-police-immunity-scotus/

The highest court in the United States has so judged that LEOs have that sanction to a measured degree, ie. Such as in the case to prevent immediate loss of life by a threat.

Omackeral

Any chance of shutting the f*ck up about the word execution? It’s extremely tedious.

beauf

irelandrover wrote: »

Definition of 'execution'

execution in British English
(ˌɛksɪˈkjuːʃən )

noun

1. the act or process of executing (carrying out a task)

2. the carrying out or undergoing of a sentence of death

3. the style or manner in which something is accomplished or performed; technique
as a pianist his execution is poor

4.
a. the enforcement of the judgment of a court of law

b. the writ ordering such enforcement


The above is the definition of an execution.

You said 2 and 4 apply. If 2 applies then the only person that could have done that is police. That means they were sentencer and executioner. If 4 applies they were the judgement of the court and the enforcer.

None of it applies. Since the context is shoot to kill. But that's not the intent, as people who are shot don't always die, and they receive medical aid.

In an execution none of that happens since the intent is death.

The whole court and judge thing is another deflection.

Using the wrong word repeatedly is to create a negative association and deliberately misrepresent the situation to suit agenda.

beauf

It will be interesting to see if other charges arise from the other things (other than the shooting) caught on video.

Keyzer

Overheal wrote: »

New video from the neighbors CCTV device shows Bryant/the suspect yelling "I'm gonna stab the **** out of you"

That's enough evidence in itself tbh that I don't see prosecutors attributing any charges to the officer.



https://www.mediaite.com/tv/im-gonna-stab-the-fck-out-of-you-garage-camera-captures-new-video-in-makhia-bryant-shooting/

I swore I wouldn't get into arguing with you again but here I am.

Does this change your opinion in relation to what happened? Do you still think the cop "executed" the girl?

If so, then you're hell bent on manipulating this incident into a racial issue to further stoke the fires of racial division.

Why, in this case, are the parents/relatives only present/vocal after the tragedy? Why weren't they there before hand? Stopping the girl from going outside with a knife. Trying to defuse the situation?

Absolutely disgraceful that this situation has been used to fuel the BLM narrative in the US. I feel sorry for the cop, god love him, probably thinks he's going to have to look over his shoulder for the rest of his life.

GreeBo

Omackeral wrote: »

Any chance of shutting the f*ck up about the word execution? It’s extremely tedious.

I think Overheal has a definite point that they are trying to get across, its just poorly....executed.

Overheal

Keyzer wrote: »

I swore I wouldn't get into arguing with you again but here I am.

Does this change your opinion in relation to what happened? Do you still think the cop "executed" the girl?

If so, then you're hell bent on manipulating this incident into a racial issue to further stoke the fires of racial division.

Why, in this case, are the parents/relatives only present/vocal after the tragedy? Why weren't they there before hand? Stopping the girl from going outside with a knife. Trying to defuse the situation?

Absolutely disgraceful that this situation has been used to fuel the BLM narrative in the US. I feel sorry for the cop, god love him, probably thinks he's going to have to look over his shoulder for the rest of his life.

Which is it: do you and the room want to “shut the **** up” about my prose or do you want to keep going?

Since you chose to ask: As I’ve been saying the cop is exonerated from any potential criminal liability. The execution was therefore arguably well justified. BLM having absolutely nothing to do with any of this discussion about widespread consternation over whether to call it an execution.

If you don’t want to keep going don’t keep at it.

Gardaí don't carry guns right?

BattleCorp

Deleted User wrote: »

Gardaí don't carry guns right?

Certain members of the Gardai carry guns but the majority of them don't. It's far from a totally unarmed police force.

BloodBath

Deleted User wrote: »

Gardaí don't carry guns right?

We just recently had a high profile case of garda shooting dead a knife wielding lunatic. Where have you been?

BloodBath

BloodBath wrote: »

We just recently had a high profile case of garda shooting dead a knife wielding lunatic. Where have you been?

That was the equivalent of a SWAT team, not a bog standard garda driving about

BloodBath

Deleted User wrote: »

That was the equivalent of a SWAT team, not a bog standard garda driving about

They are still garda. Just an elite armed unit of it. Similar to a swat team in the US, sure.

Regular garda are unarmed. Thankfully we live in a society that allows that.

BattleCorp

BattleCorp wrote: »

Certain members of the Gardai carry guns but the majority of them don't. It's far from a totally unarmed police force.

BloodBath wrote: »

They are still garda. Just an elite armed unit of it. Similar to a swat team in the US, sure.

I guess what I'm wondering is that, in Ireland, this girl would not be dead. As this looks like a call out for a bog standard police officer, not a SWAT or elite armed unit. She'd be in prison. The other girl would probably be nursing a stab wound; far from ideal. I think this is a better outcome all things considered. I hope we don't ever become as armed as the US.

Loverlyhorse

Overheal wrote: »

BLM having absolutely nothing to do with any of this discussion about widespread consternation over whether to call it an execution.

Do you think the BLM protests regarding this incident are misplaced then? Can you condede that BLM should not be protesting this death as a racist killing?

Ten of Swords

Thread is getting bogged down by unnecessary arguments.

When we're resorting to posting dictionary definitions to argue a point about rhetoric it's time to move the discussion along

Overheal

Loverlyhorse wrote: »

Do you think the BLM protests regarding this incident are misplaced then? Can you condede that BLM should not be protesting this death as a racist killing?

What is placed or misplaced about them? Have seen no reports, or discussions here about peculiar involvement in this case by BLM. There’s a whole other thread for BLM. Nobody has presented an argument that their protesting this is misplaced, here, in this thread. The most current report I saw about BLM they had changed their mind about protesting a police execution once they learned the suspect was white and that the suspect exchanged live fire with police. Other than that as it pertains here on topic I’m not particularly familiar with any news worthy involvement with BLM in the case so I am unable to answer your question.

TanookiMario

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I guess what I'm wondering is that, in Ireland, this girl would not be dead. As this looks like a call out for a bog standard police officer, not a SWAT or elite armed unit. She'd be in prison. The other girl would probably be nursing a stab wound; far from ideal. I think this is a better outcome all things considered. I hope we don't ever become as armed as the US.

I am tempted to agree but then when I think about it the whole thing is really twisted.

First it depends on where she gets stabbed. Could she lose an eye, or have facial scars for the rest of her life. What are the long term non-fatal effects of a stab wound to the stomach or lungs etc. For a young woman is there potential to sustain a non-fatal wound that would mean she can't have kids?

Since we are working on theoreticals, what if she was pregnant? Could the officer have known?

Twisted because we are kind of saying to this alternate-reality stab victim "hey, it could have been worse, the person who stabbed you could have been killed before they got to you". Kind of disturbing.

Would there be outrage if the parties involved were White? In your opinion, of course.

What's the survial rate of a stab wound anyway and how would be know if it was potentially going to be just one stab or many? It would only take seconds to inflict 5 to 10 wounds.

Its a terrible thought to actually realise that if the police officers just let's things play out, let the girl in the pink take the stabbing, then arrests the perpetrator then we basically have no outrage.

We are more comfortable allowing someone to roll the dice with a stab wound or two than we are to have authorities step in and stop an attempted murder in process. Mostly because of the races of the people involved. That's a disturbing thought.

BattleCorp

Deleted User wrote: »

I guess what I'm wondering is that, in Ireland, this girl would not be dead. As this looks like a call out for a bog standard police officer, not a SWAT or elite armed unit. She'd be in prison. The other girl would probably be nursing a stab wound; far from ideal. I think this is a better outcome all things considered. I hope we don't ever become as armed as the US.

If it was a bog standard unarmed member of the Gardai on site, the girl in pink would probably be dead. And maybe the unarmed member of the Gardai could also be dead or injured given that they would be faced with someone with a knife and a potentially hostile crowd.