Covid vaccines - thread banned users in First Post

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119420647#Comment_119420647

I don't think he did another 40, that's the point.

Here is the study he did - https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanepe/article/PIIS2666-7762(22)00023-0/fulltext#cesectitle0029

Only mention of vaccinations is:

As we expect the highly important post-SARS-CoV-2 vaccination autopsy cohort to be further increased in the near future, it will be subject of subsequent analyses from the registry.

The registry is the German COVID-19 autopsy registry, funded by the German government as was Schirmacher's study. I guess they weren't so keen on his advice that greater numbers were required, or as you say we'd have heard about them.

Perhaps the point in the article that his comments were "a politically explosive statement in times when the vaccination campaign is losing momentum, the Delta variant is spreading rapidly and restrictions on non-vaccinated people are being discussed" proved to be prescient.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119420975#Comment_119420975

So he just happened to find 30-40% of the autopsies he did where the vaccine was the cause of death... and then none.

Given the numbers of vaccines being rolled out... It beggars belief.

And no other pathologist in this study or elsewhere in the normal course of their duties encountered similar results.

And the study conducted over 1000 autopsies.

Autopsies are carried out where someone dies and the cause of death is unclear - they don't only happen as part of a study. So if vaccines were having such an effect, given the numbers vaccinated, there would be significant numbers of autopsies being conducted across every country that rolled out the vaccines in the same time frame.

How exactly do you explain how he could have found this scale of vaccine related deaths?

The whole story doesn't add up.

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119421018#Comment_119421018

So you're saying that you find one of Germany's top pathologists opinion to be implausible?

And that's fair enough. You're entitled to your opinion. But you appear to be basing that purely on your gut. i.e something to you doesn't smell right about this? Is that true?

Do you have any good reason to think he would lie or make this up?

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119421072#Comment_119421072

I don't know if he is just mistaken or if there is some other motivation or agenda in play. Perhaps his real goal is getting more autopsies done, and he thought this would attract attention. Perhaps he has an idiosyncratic theory about covid or vaccine pathologies he has locked in on. Who knows.

His findings have not been replicated either by other doctors in the study, or elsewhere, and his conclusions questioned by other scientists.

Apart from stressing that the vaccine seemed to have spurred the development of autoimmune diseases as a side effect, the Chief Pathologist also discovered that it also caused cerebral vein thrombosis in some of the deceased persons he examined. However, he did not specify whether the deceased individuals only had their first shot or were already administered a total of two doses.

Schirmacher’s findings have been brushed off by the Paul-Ehrlich-Institut, the German federal medical regulatory body and research institution for vaccines and biomedicines, as “incomprehensible.” When asked about his opinion about Schirmacher’s claims, senior German immunologist Thomas Mertens related that he does not “know of any data that would allow a justifiable statement to be made here.”

https://theegg.house/covid-19-jab-is-cause-of-death-in-30-40-of-autopsies-of-recently-vaccinated-says-german-chief-pathologist/

There is no reason to assume a high number of unreported vaccination complications or even deaths, emphasized the immunologist Christian Bogdan from the Erlangen University Hospital. “There can also be no question of neglecting the possible dangers of COVID-19 vaccines.” The last few weeks and months in particular have shown that the surveillance system is working well. In Germany, for example, the rare occurrence of cerebral vein thrombosis after vaccination with Astrazeneca (1-2 cases per 100,000 vaccinations) was recognized as a complication, says Bogdan.

https://tlarremore.wordpress.com/2021/08/05/living-and-dying-by-the-choices-we-make/

But somehow Germany would miss that up to 40% of autopsies done on people vaccinated in the 2 weeks died due to vaccines? And that it triggered autoimmune disease and triggered fatal CVT?

As I said, the story doesn't add up.

(a1) Either his is mistaken OR (a2) all the other pathologists are & the experts at the regulatory authorities in multiple countries tracking vaccine reactions - and death following vaccination is notifiable.

(b1) OR he is not mistaken and there is a huge global cover up involving every pathologist and major regulatory authority.

(c1) OR he is not mistaken, nor all other pathologists & experts. Somehow he encountered a batch of people where 30%-40% of people died due to vaccination, and other pathologists have not. I understand vaccines can have 'bad batches' \ too high a dose given, however my understanding is that reactions would be more immediate allergic type reactions and obvious rather than 'auto immune disease'.

a2 and b1 seem highly implausible to me. c1 seems possible but unlikely for the reasons listed.

Therefore my opinion is that a1 seems the most plausible explanation.

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119421319#Comment_119421319

The people you are quoting to contradict him are immunologists which I suspect explains his comment

Schirmacher insists on his opinion. "The colleagues are definitely wrong because they cannot judge this specific question competently," he reacted.

And it is not true that no other pathologists have found nothing to see here.

Here is a study of 18 - https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34591186/

In all cases, full autopsies, histopathological examinations, and virological analyses for the severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 were carried out. Depending on the case, additional laboratory tests (anaphylaxis diagnostics, VITT [vaccine-induced immune thrombotic thrombocytopenia] diagnostics, glucose metabolism diagnostics) and neuropathological examinations were conducted.

In 13 deceased, the cause of death was attributed to preexisting diseases while postmortem investigations did not indicate a causal relationship to the vaccination. In one case after vaccination with Comirnaty, myocarditis was found to be the cause of death. A causal relationship to vaccination was considered possible, but could not be proven beyond doubt. VITT was found in three deceased persons following vaccination with Vaxzevria and one deceased following vaccination with Janssen. Of those four cases with VITT, only one was diagnosed before death. The synopsis of the anamnestic data, the autopsy results, laboratory diagnostic examinations, and histopathological and neuropathological examinations revealed that VITT was the very likely cause of death in only two of the four cases. In the other two cases, no neuropathological correlate of VITT explaining death was found, while possible causes of death emerged that were not necessarily attributable to VITT.

So 13 deaths ruled out as nothing to see here. 2 deemed very likely to have been caused by vaccines, and four possible.

And these pathologists found something similiar - https://pathologie-konferenz.de/en/

But hey, I am not going to try and tell you what you can and cannot find plausible. It is unseemly.

And I happen to think this guy sounds plausible. He's certainly an interesting case. He does not appear to have been fact checked, cancelled or discredited like so many, he has just come out with a major bombshell claim, that does not appear to have got much coverage and now appears to have gone quiet on it.

Who knows, maybe he's quietly working away on a study with a ton more autopsies. Time will tell I guess.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119421510#Comment_119421510

As noted in my pervious post, German regulators picked up \ responded to the rare but serious side effects with AZ and Jansen and restricted its use:

https://healthpolicy-watch.news/germany-suspends-use-of-astrazeneca/

It is unclear but I suggest possible that the second study you have cited picked up some of those cases as VITT is listed.

Also, the numbers quoted in that study of 11% - 33% (2 or 6 from 18) are quite different to Schirmacher's range of 30% to 40% and his seems more certain of his numbers than 'possible'. His figures are an outlier, especially if his figures related to period after the changes in vaccine rollout in Germany restricting the use of AZ and Jansen. Either he is assessing cause differently to other pathologists OR he had a very unusual sample set OR he is mistaken.

As for the second study, the word "vaccination" is in quotes which is a red flag. Similar work fact checked here.

https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-coronavirus-vaccines-idUSL1N2TN1PP

patnor1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119420298#Comment_119420298

16 out of 40 and you are asking what's the issue?

Unbelievable.

King Mob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119421704#Comment_119421704

Yes.

Hometruths objected to the notion that this number was being being scaled up to apply to the whole population. He stated that the conclusion was only about the 40 autopsies that this guy conducted and nothing else.

Are you suggesting that this number is indicative of the rate occurring in the total population?

King Mob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119421072#Comment_119421072

Again you are being very hypocritical here.

If you are deciding to believe this one expert, this implies that you believe that all the experts and organisations promoting the vaccine as safe or are suppressing the obvious amounts of deaths are lying or making things up.

Do you have any good reason to think all of those experts would lie or make stuff up?

snowcat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119421804#Comment_119421804

There is a lot of reputations and careers at stake not to mention the reputation of vaccines as a whole if these mRNA vaccines do not turn out to be overwhelmingly safe. It is a brave expert who can or will raise concerns against the common narrative. As can be seen by this thread any criticism of the wonder vaccine will be accompanied by wails of "anti vaxxer" and give us the unquestionable proof.

robinph

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119422586#Comment_119422586

Why hasn't anyone involved in the development of the non mrna vaccines come out saying something then? Would be to their benefit if their non mrna vaccines were considered better surely, if there is something there why haven't they highlighted it?

EyesClosed

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119422586#Comment_119422586

But it's been two years... Vaccines including mrna will show complications in the first 6 months... In fact the mrna doesn't stay around in your body forever.

So the vaccine has been proven to be overwhelming safe. If you don't think so please prove it. There have been countless studies posted in here showing the safety.

King Mob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119422586#Comment_119422586

Lol. Nope. Misrepresentation as always.

Not all criticism of the vaccines are being labeled as "anti vaxx". This is an exaggeration you anti vaxxers use to pretend that your position isn't extreme.

And since your able to suggest motivations for why people would lie to defend the vaccine, why do you have an issue imagining the same thing for people to discredit the vaccine?

King Mob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119422614#Comment_119422614

This would be a pretty enticing motivation for those folks to spread misinformation about the mRNA vaccines. Who knows maybe that's the source for all of the claims the conspiracy theorists have been making.

It's not all that far fetched given this was pretty much exactly the motivation behind their boy Wakefield.

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119422586#Comment_119422586

And when doctors are threatened with sanctions if they publicly express concerns, many will obviously just say nothing. Hopefully this will change over time. In Australia a group of healthcare professionals have established a new professional body to gain safety in numbers for doctors who are not happy being censored, saying "there is growing evidence from around the world that information has been withheld from public view and that doctors have been pressured out of questioning policy and data related to the pandemic."

Our AMPS members are refusing to be silent, even under threats to our registrations. We are fighting for law reform to provide our patients with evidence-based care rather than uncritical politically driven health practice.

Does the Australian public know that the government regulator, AHPRA, has warned health professionals, including doctors and nurses, not to publicly question government public health directives, including those related to Covid – effectively gagging them? This is done by threatening their registration.

On vaccines specifically they say:

The comparative lack of vital long-term data (present for other vaccines and medical treatments) is lacking in Covid vaccines – making it difficult to justify statements such as proven safe and effective. ‘Assumed to the best of our knowledge’ would be more accurate.

https://spectator.com.au/2022/08/the-end-of-medicine/

King Mob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119423364#Comment_119423364

Who threatens them?

How is this conspiracy organised on the global scale.

Congrats on the 10000th post on this thread with still no conspiracy theory being presented.

snowcat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119423371#Comment_119423371

I think most people agree there is no specific conspiracy except maybe greed from pharma companies. Nothing new in that. What is discussed here generally is vaccine efficacy, safety, long term effects and the extension to non vulnerable adults and children for little benefit if any. Unfortunately any discussion in general forums is shut down rapidly so it ends up here in the conspiracy forum.

King Mob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119426784#Comment_119426784

Lol. OK. There's no conspiracy.

You just think that there's a giant secret global coordinated cover up of the real efficacy and the side effects of the vaccine and that boards somehow is involved in this because "they shut down discussion".

If that's not an accurate description, please inform us what the accurate version is.

sydthebeat

So.....

There's no vaccine safety conspiracy.

Only took 10,000 posts to admit this whole thread is BS

snowcat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119426798#Comment_119426798

Possible yes. We will only see over the next few years on how excess deaths and fertility rates pan out. Certainly yes boards.ie have participated in the shut down of discussion. I was banned in the early days for suggesting that efficacy of the vaccine looked to be not great, a point that is now well proven.

Fighting Tao

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119426867#Comment_119426867

You do realise that the vaccines were specifically created for the early days variants? I can completely understand how you fell foul of the mods if you pushing a lie about vaccine efficacy and the initial variants on the main covid forum.

King Mob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119426867#Comment_119426867

OK. So your conspiracy is that boards is somehow under orders to shut down discussion.

Cool. That's a conspiracy that can be discussed.

How are they involved exactly? Are they paid to do this?

patnor1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119421790#Comment_119421790

I am suggesting that it is crazy to say "what's the issue" in connection with doctor performing 40 autopsies of people who died within 2 weeks of taking injections and who believe that 16 of them possibly died because of that.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119427258#Comment_119427258

"Possibly"???

He's not much of a pathologist if his determination is "possibly"

King Mob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119427258#Comment_119427258

I'll remind you that you guys have been repeatedly and continuously downplaying the millions of deaths from covid.

And again you don't seem to understand the posts.

Hometruths objected to the notion that the percentage could be applied beyond those 40 cases.

In that case it's only 16 people *possibly* killed by the vaccine.

Given that's 16 people compared to millions of people killed by the virus, what's the issue?

Now note that again you've avoided the question I asked as per usual.

You don't believe that this number applies to the population as a whole or you don't want to say so and contradict a fellow conspiracy theorist.

So we know that isn't the issue here.

So then what is it?

patnor1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119427295#Comment_119427295

I said that because you guys get easily triggered. Go read his report then speculate on what he said and if he is "not much of a pathologist". Somehow I think that his qualifications or experience would be several magnitudes higher than yours or mine.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119427357#Comment_119427357

So you're admitting you either don't understand the report or you deliberately are misconstruing it here. Why else would you put the word "possibly" into your post?

Either he's attributing the deaths to the vaccine or he's not. Which is it?

patnor1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119427322#Comment_119427322

Yada, yada, yada... Is how most of what you write sounds like. Let me explain twisting and dishonesty in your post.

16 out of 40 he did. There is no way you can claim there was only 16. You keep using this number because it is hard to dismiss it since he is quite experienced in what he does therefore you go around shouting "what's the issue its only 16"...

Equally ridiculous is to compare that number to "millions of covid deaths" when first of all there was very little autopsies done and quite a lot of times there was not even test done yet death was recorded as covid death. It was convenient and because of this a lot of states recently adjusted number of deaths in some cases rather drastically. Also most of "millions of covid deaths" you mention were death with covid. Not because or from covid. But you know that.

Now, to me or anyone else 16 out of 40 is quite a lot. Nearly half.

King Mob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119427409#Comment_119427409

Are you claiming that the number he determined is applicable to the general population?

Yes or no?

If yes, then you are disagreeing with hometruths.

If no, then you've no point.

Which is it?

And yes, as I said you guys have constantly dismissed and diminished the deaths caused by covid. Thanks for the fresh demonstration.

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119426867#Comment_119426867

No.

Prior to the pandemic, anti-vaxxers spent decades screeching that vaccines are dangerous. They aren't.

During the pandemic, anti-vaxxers switched their target to the Covid vaccines and started screeching they were dangerous. We've all had them and they aren't.

Now anti-vaxxers have switched again to rabbiting on about "the long term effects" and they'll milk that for a few years.

Everyone has their doubts about things, anti-vaxxers are people with doubts which morph into fanaticism. Next thing they are on a conspiracy theory forum writing hundreds of posts about the "dangers" of vaccines alongside new-world-order crackpots and genuinely seeing nothing wrong with that. We have several at that stage.

It will never change. There will always be anti-vaxxers. It's also a mini-industry now worth millions, full of grifters.