Covid vaccines - thread banned users in First Post

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119456378#Comment_119456378

There is absolutely zero evidence to suggest that authorities saw 'bad' data and therefore felt they had to use vaccine mandates to get more people vaccinated.

I'm pointing out that real world data showed significant reduction in cases in 2021 from vaccinations. This was during the period of rollout.

It doesn't 'relate' directly because it was conducted on a totally different basis. What it does show is that if the authorities were looking at the trial data and looking at early real world signs, they would have seen the vaccines making a significant difference in hospitalisations, severe covid, infections and transmissions.

So there is absolutely zero evidence they pushed vaccines mandates because they felt the data was bad. All the available data showed the authorities to have a genuine belief that the vaccines would reduce cases and hospitalisations and be beneficial for people to take.

You have failed to counter this with a single shred of evidence.

And yes, what coercion?

How about answering any of the points put to you already on the thread?

Needing a vaccine to go to places that were shut during the pandemic and re-opened with vaccine passports isn't coercion.

Needing a vaccine as a condition of the employment contract you signed isn't coercion.

Vaccine mandates were not coercion. You have failed to show that they amounted to force or threats.

Coercion: the practice of persuading someone to do something by using force or threats

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119456455#Comment_119456455

We have no idea why there was such a dramatic shift way from the no pressure, no discrimination, no mandates position. There is no evidence of any reason why. It's just not discussed. But there is no doubt it happened. We can only speculate as to why.

Vaccine mandates were not coercion. You have failed to show that they amounted to force or threats.

It is totally pointless arguing this point. Vaccine mandates are coercion. Fact. To argue otherwise is possibly the greatest example of revisionism I have seen so far, and I have seen a few at this stage.

I am genuinely amazed that anybody would even attempt it.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119456515#Comment_119456515

You havent shown a fundamental shift. The EU parliament is not an executive body and is not "the EU" and they regularly take positions at odds with other EU bodies or national governments. The average EU parliament member at the time had hardly a deeper awareness of vaccine efficacy than the average citizen.

Even if there was a shift one could just as easily argue they pushed for mandates because they had more, not less, confidence in the vaccines when they saw the real world data showing significant reductions in cases and protection v severe covid.

Its a road to nowhere when you have no actual evidence to support a particular reason.

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119456579#Comment_119456579

they had more, not less, confidence in the vaccines when they saw the real world data showing significant reductions in cases and protection v severe covid.

do you really believe anybody had more confidence in the vaccines’ ability to end the pandemic in Dec 21 vs Jan 21?

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119456639#Comment_119456639

Changing the goalposts again.

When were vaccine mandates rolled out?

It was long before December 21.

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119456665#Comment_119456665

I haven’t shifted any goalposts. I said Dec 21 as that’s when there was talk of an EU vaccine wide mandate. Austria had committed to introducing nationwide mandatory vaccination, Germany had committing to putting bill on nationwide mandatory vaccination before parliament. Macron was chomping at the bit for it in France.

But fine. Do you think anybody had more confidence in the vaccines ability to end the pandemic in June 21 than Jan 21?

Or at any stage in 2021 or 2022?

King Mob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119456712#Comment_119456712

I haven’t shifted any goalposts.

This is the umpteenth time the goalposts have shifted to "but the lockdowns were bad..." from "vaccine effectiveness" or "vaccine safety". which is the actual topic of the thread.

You'll shift back in a little bit when Odyssey's points get too difficult for you yet again. Watch.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119456712#Comment_119456712

In Ireland MVCs were wound down and the government had great difficulty in getting them back up to speed to deal with booster demand. Those are hardly the actions of a conspiracy which all the way along was lining up vaccine mandates or knew in advance that the vaccine immunity dropped off over time.

The need for boosters emerged from data over the latter part of 2021 (after vaccine passports were used) and put paid to hopes that through the numbers infected and vaccinated a 'herd immunity' could be reached that would blitz the virus into suppression.

But this happened after the initial roll outs had happened in the EU and after vaccine passports were rolled out for access to hospitality, travel etc. All the available evidence shows this was done because of a genuine belief that hospitality should be opened to those at lower risk of severe covid and at lower risk of being infected by covid and transmitting covid. At the time Ireland rolled out vaccine passports, the data cited by authorities at the time showed this and you have provided no evidence to contradict this. I assume you consider vaccine passports to constitute 'pressure' on people to get vaccinated therefore you are not specifically speaking just about mandatory vaccines.

So for two reasons it is simply false to claim the below:

(1) The EU Parliament are not an executive body and their opinion in January 2021 does not necessarily reflect the opinion of the authorities that decided on vaccine passports \ vaccine rollout.

(2) It is factually incorrect based on the timeline above. After Ireland rolled out vaccine passports, they would down the MVCs.

I am implying that the anti pressure/discrimination resolution was adopted when it was believed that the vaccines would prevent covid, lead to herd immunity and our way out of the pandemic. When this belief turned out to be wrong, whether from bad trial data or variant, the position shifted to mandates and pressure.

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119457234#Comment_119457234

So none of that really answers the question: But fine. Do you think anybody had more confidence in the vaccines ability to end the pandemic in June 21 than Jan 21? Or at any stage in 2021 or 2022?

Nor does any of the above contradict this statement:

We have no idea why there was such a dramatic shift way from the no pressure, no discrimination, no mandates position. There is no evidence of any reason why. It's just not discussed. But there is no doubt it happened. We can only speculate as to why.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119457278#Comment_119457278

It did more than answer the question, it entirely cut the legs out from underneath your premise of a shift as I have shown with reference to the role of the EU parliament and the actions of Irish authorities.

The reason it is not discussed is because it didn't happen.

Pointless debating this further when you continually ignore the counter points put to you.

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119457520#Comment_119457520

So yet another thing that didn't happen?! More revisionism.

King Mob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119457532#Comment_119457532

Just because people don't agree with your biased version of events and you aren't able to argue your point, it doesn't make them "revisionists."

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119457544#Comment_119457544

Before the vaccine was approved people who raised concerns about vaccine passports, restrictions on the unvaccinated and mandatory vaccinations were dismissed as paranoid fantasists.

They were dismissed as conspiracy theorists precisely because the public messaging was the opposite. If and when a vaccine was approved there would be no pressure to take it, nor would they be mandatory. The EU parliament resolution is inarguable evidence of that public messaging.

That public messaging shifted over the course of 2021 to widespread use of vaccine passports, confirmed roll outs of mandatory vaccinations for all in some EU countries, and kite flying about a potential EU wide mandatory vaccination policy.

To say this never happened is blatant revisionism.

King Mob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119457910#Comment_119457910

No, again, malpresentation.

People were dismissed as conspiracy theorists for suggesting that covid measures were going to be permanent as part of a global conspiracy.

Are you saying that people, especially here weren't suggesting conspiracy theories like this?

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119457921#Comment_119457921

I agree that some people were suggesting that all covid measures that had already been enacted would be made permanent, they were dismissed as conspiracy theorists, and those that dismissed them have been proven right.

I never suggested otherwise. My point was specifically about vaccines, and people who, before they were rolled out, raised fears about policies that might potentially be enacted in the future.

Specifically, I said:

Before the vaccine was approved people who raised concerns about vaccine passports, restrictions on the unvaccinated and mandatory vaccinations were dismissed as paranoid fantasists.

King Mob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119457980#Comment_119457980

But you're misrepresenting people pointing at the actual conspiracy theorists (Who you constantly coodle and back pat and avoid confronting btw.) as painting everyone with that brush.

I'm sure you have some out of context quotes in your pocket that you believe somehow proves this wrong, but we've heard it all before.

And notice now how you've shifted the goal posts again.

You're not talking about how the lockdowns were bad any more.

I was wrong though, I expected that you'd loop back around to vaccine safety first...

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119457995#Comment_119457995

But you're misrepresenting people pointing at the actual conspiracy theorists (Who you constantly coodle and back pat and avoid confronting btw.) as painting everyone with that brush.

How am I misrepresenting those people pointing at the conspiracy theorists?

This is your thing. Accusations of misrepresentation. Kind of ironic, really.

King Mob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119458112#Comment_119458112

I explained that in my post. Read it again.

You are taking people pointing at actual conspiracy theorists (again, you know the only people thanking your posts) and misrepresenting that as people making that accusation against people you deem as being reasonable.

And yes, I'm pointing out all of the misrepresentation you are doing in pretty much every post now to highlight your hypocrisy in falsely accusing me.

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119458180#Comment_119458180

Ok, let me put it another away as you can answer for yourself and I can't be accused of tarring everybody with the same brush.

Pre rollout, did you dismiss the concerns of people worried about the potential introduction of vaccine passports and mandatory?

If you did not dismiss them, was it because you knew or thought they would be introduced? Or some other reason?

If you did dismiss them, why did you think their concerns were conspiracy theories?

Edit to add: I dismissed them as paranoid because the public messaging at the time was the total opposite. I thought there was no way these measures would be introduced.

King Mob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119458346#Comment_119458346

No, I did not dismiss such concerns as the only people expressing those concerns here were doing so as part of a giant global conspiracy.

If not, was it because you knew or thought they would be introduced? Or some other reason?

Because it was possible that they might be introduced, and if they were introduced those self same people weren't able to actually explain why such measures were a concern or a bad thing. You still can't.

I fully expect you to attempt to misrepresent this post however.

Before the vaccine was approved people who raised concerns about vaccine passports, restrictions on the unvaccinated and mandatory vaccinations were dismissed as paranoid fantasists.

Vaccine passports were around long before Covid and will remain long after. Try getting into half of Africa without a yellow fever vaccination.

Restrictions on the unvaccinated, same deal.

mandatory vaccinations never happened in Ireland.

You, sir, are a paranoid fantasist.

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119458380#Comment_119458380

those self same people weren't able to actually explain why such measures were a concern or a bad thing. You still can't.

We've been through this before. Vaccine fanatics think these measures are a great thing, yes, but not everybody agrees:

• Mandatory COVID-19 vaccine policies have been used around the world during the COVID-19 pandemic to increase vaccination rates. But these policies have provoked considerable social and political resistance, suggesting that they have unintended harmful consequences and may not be ethical, scientifically justified, and effective.
• We outline a comprehensive set of hypotheses for why current COVID-19 vaccine policies may prove to be both counterproductive and damaging to public health. Our framework synthesizes insights from behavioural psychology (reactance, cognitive dissonance, stigma, and distrust), politics and law (effects on civil liberties, polarization, and global governance), socio-economics (effects on inequality, health system capacity and social wellbeing) and the integrity of science and public health (the erosion of public health ethics and regulatory oversight).
• Our analysis strongly suggests that mandatory COVID-19 vaccine policies have had damaging effects on public trust, vaccine confidence, political polarization, human rights, inequities and social wellbeing. We question the effectiveness and consequences of coercive vaccination policy in pandemic response and urge the public health community and policymakers to return to non-discriminatory, trust-based public health approaches.

https://gh.bmj.com/content/7/5/e008684#ref-60

King Mob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119458573#Comment_119458573

There's no such thing as "vaccine fanatics" man.

You're just copying Snowcat's silly "EPV" catchphrase now.

You're shifting the goalposts yet again. You're going from arguing that "they called everyone conspiracy theorists!" to now arguing "well the lockdowns were bad."

And chances are you're not representing that article you're link dumping in the first place.

If you want to discuss further, stick to an actual point. If you're going to try and shift the goalposts, then good luck to you.

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119458626#Comment_119458626

You're shifting the goalposts yet again. You're going from arguing that "they called everyone conspiracy theorists!" to now arguing "well the lockdowns were bad."

Eh? You keep talking about how I have shifted the goalposts to the lockdowns are bad?! Can you point out where I have done this? Certainly not in the post you just quoted!

And chances are you're not representing that article you're link dumping in the first place.

I quoted verbatim the summary of a paper in the BMJ on the unintended consequences of covid vaccine policies. How on earth can you say that is a misrepresentation.

This is not any sort of discussion. Repeated accusations of shifting goalposts and misrepresentation just show how thin your arguments really are.

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119458567#Comment_119458567

Irrespective if what happened in Ireland, we've been discussing this in the EU.

And proof of vaccination status to go to the pub or the gym?

You think the public message in late 2020 was we'll introduce restrictions on your soclal life and potentially make vaccination mandatory?

King Mob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119458654#Comment_119458654

The topic we were previously discussing was your claim that anyone who expressed concern about covid measures was labeled as a conspiracy theorists.

Nothing in the parts of the link you quoted has anything to do with that topic.

You are trying to change the topic because you've been cornered in the previous one.

You're trying to change what the discussion is so you can pretend to have scored a point.

If you don't like people pointing out that you misrepresent stuff and constantly shift the goal posts, stop.

I suspect you'll still be back to claiming the vaccines aren't safe again soon.

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119458682#Comment_119458682

The topic we were previously discussing was your claim that anyone who expressed concern about covid measures was labeled as a conspiracy theorists.

No. The point I raised was specifically about vaccine policies:

Before the vaccine was approved people who raised concerns about vaccine passports, restrictions on the unvaccinated and mandatory vaccinations were dismissed as paranoid fantasists.

You tried to shift the goalposts to all covid measures by replying:

No, again, malpresentation.

People were dismissed as conspiracy theorists for suggesting that covid measures were going to be permanent as part of a global conspiracy.

I brought it back on topic by replying:

I agree that some people were suggesting that all covid measures that had already been enacted would be made permanent, they were dismissed as conspiracy theorists, and those that dismissed them have been proven right.

I never suggested otherwise. My point was specifically about vaccines, and people who, before they were rolled out, raised fears about policies that might potentially be enacted in the future.

So you try and shift the discussion away from the vaccine specific discussion, I shift it back and I post a link specifically about the effects of vaccine mandates etc and now you say:

Nothing in the parts of the link you quoted has anything to do with that topic.

You are trying to change the topic because you've been cornered in the previous one.

You're trying to change what the discussion is so you can pretend to have scored a point.

🤣🤣🤣

This tactic is getting tiresome. I'd stick to UFO bashing if I were you.

King Mob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119458747#Comment_119458747

Lol. You're tying yourself up in circles. It's silly.

What safety issues do you believe have been discovered that haven't already been discovered and accounted for by actual experts?

If you can't point anything, there's nothing to discuss.

The fact you guys have been scrambling around in circles looking for anything bad to say about vaccines and failing shows that you've got nothing.

And given this, and you beliefs and tactics, I can understand why people were dismissing you as a conspiracy theorist.

kernkraft500

the tangents have been great, but I'm still waiting for the evidence that the vaccines aren't safe

King Mob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119459727#Comment_119459727

They'll be back to claiming this when the grifters they follow find something new to lie about, misrepresent and misunderstand.

It's been a very lucrative 2 years for them and it's looking like they'll be continuing this con for a long time to come.