Covid vaccines - thread banned users in First Post

robinph

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120187690#Comment_120187690

That was a long and rambling article that seemed to be on the cusp of making a point all the way through... But then failing to state exactly what he was on about.

It read to me as if he was trying to avoid directly saying "people are stupid. Science needs to listen to stupid people and take on their views... And find a different way to get them to understand the things science is trying to do to help them". Instead he wrote a long article of nothing.

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120187690#Comment_120187690

I certainly didn't claim it to be an anti vaccine tract.

It is possible to point out that the scientific community overstated the evidence and misled the public about vaccine effectiveness and safety and not be anti vaccine.

The reason I said it was very welcome was because it expresses the sentiment that some of what was pushed/mandated was wrong, the science was not settled, the consensus was wrong:

It's OK to be wrong and admit where one was wrong and what one learned. That's a central part of the way science works. Yet I fear that many are too entrenched in groupthink—and too afraid to publicly take responsibility—to do this.

He's right that too many are afraid to publicly take responsibility, but the more people like himself who do so in articles like this, then others will follow.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120187795#Comment_120187795

So do you agree with this statement:

We have witnessed a massive and ongoing loss of life in America due to distrust of vaccines

And its clear implication that had more people been vaccinated, significant numbers of lives would have been saved.

I say significant because the author says "massive".

It is an article you linked.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120187776#Comment_120187776

Yes, and what exactly is his plan for getting more people to get vaccinated?

It's just hurling from the ditch.

Not once does it actually explain what the mistake was, what should have been done differently, and justify why that different course would have achieved a better outcome. And explain exactly what that better outcome was.

sydthebeat

i dont see any news article there, i only see an op-ed piece by a medical student.

is there something we are supposed to be gleaming from this guy sharing his opinion?

The views expressed in this article are the writer's own.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120187905#Comment_120187905

Yes, in the context of this thread, the most pertinent opinion being:

We have witnessed a massive and ongoing loss of life in America due to distrust of vaccines

Not sure what the conspiracy theory is though... a conspiracy against covid vaccinations has cost lives? Hmm.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120185831#Comment_120185831

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120185849#Comment_120185849

Do you two really think I am going to go back over 12500 posts to see what he said many months ago, then think again,

I was referring to post #12527 01-02-2023 5:53am and the reply that was trying to pivot to something that may or may not have been said somewhere else in the 12500 posts in this thread.

So no I have not been made a fool of, you have been called out for trying to distract from the point.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120187966#Comment_120187966

It's a thread about covid vaccines.

You don't think it is relevant to point out that there are posters on the thread who think that vaccines are a plot to depopulate the planet?

Do you agree or disagree with the statement about vaccines?

What do you think of that conspiracy?

It would be good to know where you stand.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120187966#Comment_120187966

if youre not going to bother reading the thread, then do not dare question me when i make a post referring to what "some people" say.

it might help you to know the calibre of person your siding with

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120187960#Comment_120187960

He's not saying that the evidence and effectiveness of vaccines was overstated. You are.

I can see now that the scientific community from the CDC to the WHO to the FDA and their representatives, repeatedly overstated the evidence and misled the public about its own views and policies, including on natural vs. artificial immunity, school closures and disease transmission, aerosol spread, mask mandates, and vaccine effectiveness and safety, especially among the young.

He's not saying that ANYTHING which was pushed or was mandated was wrong. You are.

All of these were scientific mistakes at the time, not in hindsight. Amazingly, some of these obfuscations continue to the present day.

He doesn't say the Science wasn't settled nor does he say the consensus was wrong. You do.

I was wrong. We in the scientific community were wrong. And it cost lives.

But perhaps more important than any individual error was how inherently flawed the overall approach of the scientific community was, and continues to be. It was flawed in a way that undermined its efficacy and resulted in thousands if not millions of preventable deaths.

We made science a team sport, and in so doing, we made it no longer science. It became us versus them, and "they" responded the only way anyone might expect them to: by resisting.

It's OK to be wrong and admit where one was wrong and what one learned. That's a central part of the way science works. 

Fighting Tao

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120187966#Comment_120187966

If you state something so definite then you should know if what you are stating is true or BS.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120188119#Comment_120188119

In the article the author also said this:

We have witnessed a massive and ongoing loss of life in America due to distrust of vaccines

You cite this article as some kind of authority piece, whose opinion should be respected and listened to - and yet refuse to answer a simple question about its content where it relates to vaccines.

Do we assume you agree?

That more vaccinations in the US would have helped to prevent massive loss of life?

And if don't agree, why do you disagree? And if you disagree with it, why should assign any weight to anything else said in the article when you cite it?

This question has been asked of you already. It is an article you posted. And yet you refuse to engage in discussion of this part of its content.

I suspect the reason why you will not is that you know it refutes your central points about the article.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120187808/#Comment_120187808

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120188540#Comment_120188540

You cite this article as some kind of authority piece, whose opinion should be respected and listened to - and yet refuse to answer a simple question about its content where it relates to vaccines.

No, I cited this article as a welcome addition to the discourse in mainstream media. I didn't claim it was written by an acknowledged authority or expert. I specifically pointed out: No doubt the vaccine fanatics will rubbish him as just a student, what does he know etc etc, but just like the Emperor's New Clothes, it takes the confidence of youth to point out what the wise old heads are too afraid to say.

We have witnessed a massive and ongoing loss of life in America due to distrust of vaccines

Do we assume you agree? That more vaccinations in the US would have helped to prevent massive loss of life?

In the context of covid vaccines, depending on the age/health profile in question, yes I think there is certainly a plausible argument that the way in which the messaging was conducted and definitions of safe and effective were revised caused vaccine hesitancy in a large number of people who refused the vaccine and died, when they might not have if they were vaccinated.

I also agree with the statement as far as it refers to all vaccines. One of the points I have made repeatedly here is that the refusal to acknowledge any shortcomings in the covid vaccines has generated huge distrust in all vaccines and continues to do so. That will inevitably lead to loss of life.

And if don't agree, why do you disagree? And if you disagree with it, why should assign any weight to anything else said in the article when you cite it?

See above. And if you also agree with the statement, I assume you agree with everything else in the article? Or do you get a pass for needing to agree with everything?

This question has been asked of you already. It is an article you posted. And yet you refuse to engage in discussion of this part of its content.

I suspect the reason why you will not is that you know it refutes your central points about the article.

I am not refusing to engage with it. There was a flurry of replies to my post, but I simply don't have as much time as others to play whack-a-mole.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120188902#Comment_120188902

So you agree it is plausible that massive numbers of deaths in the US would have been prevented had more people gotten covid vaccinations.

Because that is the contention of the author. It goes far beyond 'might not have'.

In the context of this thread such a statement this is certainly contrary to many of the posts on this thread some of which claim vaccines are responsible for more deaths than lived saved.

The author of the article you cite patently does not share that view.

I didnt post the article. I havent cited the author as someone whose opinions should be listened to so I dont have to agree with its entire content. I have already posted my thoughts on the article.

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120189067#Comment_120189067

In the context of this thread such a statement this is certainly contrary to many of the posts on this thread some of which claim vaccines are responsible for more deaths than lived saved.

Great, if that's your beef, take it up with those many posters who have made these claims.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120189084#Comment_120189084

You are concerned about vaccine hesitancy yet you have no 'beef' with those who make unfounded accusations on the dangers of vaccines?

Claims such as they do nothing to protect against severe covid-death, or even are responsible for more deaths than lives saved?

You dont think such claims have anything to do with some people refusing to get vaccinated?

Claims which appear to be clearly contradicted by the view they plausibly would have saved massive mumbers of lives in the US.

Oh and I will remind you of your agreement re plausible that massive numbers of lives saved if more people had gotten covid vaccinations should you make claims to the contrary in future.

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120189170#Comment_120189170

You are concerned about vaccine hesitancy yet you have no 'beef' with those who make unfounded accusations on the dangers of vaccines?

Yes, I am more concerned that the scientific community from the CDC to the WHO to the FDA and their representatives, repeatedly overstated the evidence and misled the public on vaccines, than some anonymous posters on discussion forums who say the vaccines have killed more than they saved. Absolutely. Anything else is totally irrational.

Oh and I will remind you of your agreement re plausible that massive numbers of lives saved if more people had gotten covid vaccinations should you make claims to the contrary in future.

Fire away, just don't forget the context - it is certainly plausible that if more vulnerable/elderly people had gotten vaccinations, then more vulnerable/elderly lives would have been saved.

I don't think vaccinating another few million 5 year olds against Covid would save any lives at all.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120189280#Comment_120189280

The level of anti vax propaganda went far beyond that as you are well aware.

You have have provided zero evidence to support the position that the CDC messaging etc is more responsible for vaccine hesitancy than the concerted unprecdented anti vax campaign.

Especially in the cohorts you mentioned: elderly and vulnerable.

I would add you appear to show zero concern re anti vax propaganda. So to talk of 'more concern' implies a balance. Or indeed that one can only be concerned about either one or the other.

So to state it is 'totally irrational' is completely without merit or foundation.

By your logic it must therefore be 'totally irrational' to be unconcerned about anti vax propaganda.

Some posts on this thread are one aspect of that anti vax propaganda.

To be concerned about such anti vax propaganda here is therefore entirely rational, and to challenge their content on a forum of which you are a member a demonstration of rationality.

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120189389#Comment_120189389

You have have provided zero evidence to support the position that the CDC messaging etc is more responsible for vaccine hesitancy than the concerted unprecdented anti vax campaign.

I believe the unprecedented anti vax feeling is a direct result of the CDC messaging. I have posted links to papers in the BMJ before supporting this position.

I would add you appear to show zero concern re anti vax propaganda. So to talk of 'more concern' implies a balance. Or indeed that one can only be concerned about either one or the other.

You are correct. I have zero concern about anti-vax propaganda. I only talk of more concern in response to incessant questions such as this:

You are concerned about vaccine hesitancy yet you have no 'beef' with those who make unfounded accusations on the dangers of vaccines?

That posting style is a hallmark of many posters on this forum. Total whataboutery. Rather than address the points I make, you ask me about the concerns I raise in posts relative to the concerns you have about points made in posts by other posters. And then claim my replies are without merit or foundation! Madness.

Some posts on this thread are one aspect of that anti vax propaganda.

To be concerned about such anti vax propaganda here is therefore entirely rational, and to challenge their content on a forum of which you are a member a demonstration of rationality.

Great if you want to challenge the content of "some posts" on that "one aspect", knock yourself out, but please stop badgering me about them.

patnor1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120185831#Comment_120185831

Please be so kind and point us to where did I say that "covid vaccines are a global conspiracy to depopulate the world".

In your own time.

Fighting Tao

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120189733#Comment_120189733

Please be so kind and point us to where I said that.

In your own time.

patnor1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120185831#Comment_120185831

Here. You implied I said that. So you were lying.

Fighting Tao

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120189776#Comment_120189776

I haven’t lied. It is not my fault that English comprehension causes you issues. Now off you trot and try winding up someone else.

patnor1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120189813#Comment_120189813

English comprehension?

I made post to which Syd made his own statement and when he was called out you reacted and implied I said something Syd claimed. That was a move to discredit me and a clear lie and when I pointed it to you you actually went deeper and added a bit of xenophobia.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120189555#Comment_120189555

Apparently, asking questions about your position on covid vaccines and claims made about them on a thread called "covid vaccines" is whataboutism now. Absurd.

Pointless to continue this further at present if thats the line you are going to take.

Fighting Tao

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120189847#Comment_120189847

Zero lies were told by me…. As for mentioning xenophobia…you’re having a laugh. I’ve called other people out for poor English comprehension on this forum. You’re not special in that regard.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120189847#Comment_120189847

Did my post say that you said anything?

I could swear I posted "some people believe".....

Why are conspiracy theorist so paranoid? Actually , scratch that.... It's their raison d'etre really.

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120189882#Comment_120189882

For sure in a good faith discussion, if you're unsure where they're coming from establishing what somebody's position on an aspect of vaccines is on topic, but asking again and again what is a posters position on somebody else's specific claim, despite it being answered numerous times previously, is simply haranguing to deflect and literal whataboutery.

On this page alone, your claims are "nothing to see here in the context of the thread, what about somebody who said vaccines are causing more deaths than they prevent, what about somebody who said vaccines are a plot to depopulate the planet..." rinse and repeat ad nauseam.

Pointless indeed.

Big Bag of Chips

Can posters please return to discussing the topic rather than each other. I'd rather not hand out thread/forum bans.

$hifty forum banned for 1 week for posting following thread ban.

So here's a recent press release from Pfizer,

https://www.pfizer.com/news/announcements/pfizer-responds-research-claims

Some key takeaways,

"Emergency uses of the vaccines have not been approved or licensed by FDA but have been authorized by FDA under an Emergency Use Authorization (EUA) to prevent Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19) in individuals aged 6 months and older. The emergency uses are only authorized for the duration of the declaration that circumstances exist justifying the authorization of emergency use of the medical product under Section 564(b)(1) of the FD&C Act unless the declaration is terminated or authorization revoked sooner."

So they have never really been properly approved, but permitted due to the "covid emergency", in other words they were panicked into approving for the duration of the emergency.

•  The vaccine may not protect everyone 

Well, blow me down with a feather!!!

The a huge list of adverse reactions including this comment

•  Myocarditis (inflammation of the heart muscle) and pericarditis (inflammation of the lining outside the heart) have occurred in some people who have received COMIRNATY® (COVID-19 vaccine, mRNA) or Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine. The observed risk is higher among adolescent males and adult males under 40 years of age than among females and older males, and the observed risk is highest in males 12 through 17 years of age. In most of these people, symptoms began within a few days following receipt of the second dose of vaccine. The chance of having this occur is very low

and there's more

Side effects that have been reported with these vaccines include:

•   Severe allergic reactions

•   Non-severe allergic reactions such as rash, itching, hives, or swelling of the face

•   Myocarditis (inflammation of the heart muscle)

•   Pericarditis (inflammation of the lining outside the heart)

The truth is finally being slowly extracted through gritted teeth!