Covid vaccines - thread banned users in First Post

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118359558#Comment_118359558

But just simply parroting "lies, lies, lies" is not really questioning them. As I said I have not seen much of the Bill Gates/5G/magnetic chat so I am not familiar to what extent it was discussed. And to be honest I have no interest in the discussion.

I am familiar with the vaccines are not safe, the indicators are there are a severe number of adverse reactions chat and that is met with parroting of "lies, lies, lies" which is nonsense.

To me the interesting conspiracy theory is why everybody is falling over themselves to defend what are at best pretty rubbish vaccines and at worst dangerous.

What is the basis for your enthusiasm for the vaccines?

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118359572#Comment_118359572

Schmittel, we're going over old ground here, and it's a bit disingenuous for you to say "I haven't seen any one here claim decapitation was caused by vaccines" when the argument was made by certain CTers that "look at all the adverse reactions from the vaccines"!!! when the data was listed, without then realising or understanding (or worse still knowingly spreading disinformation)

For the record I don't believe that vaccines are causing decapitation or sunburn. But I do believe they are causing serious adverse reactions.

For the avoidance of doubt, are you saying you don't believe they are causing serious adverse reactions?

Timberrrrrrrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118359592#Comment_118359592

Aspirin, paracetamol, birth control, peanuts and a myriad of other things can cause serious adverse reactions in a small % of the population too, the question you have to ask is this

Is the risk of a serious adverse reaction to a miniscule % of people worth it to for the benefit of the majority of the people.

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118359570#Comment_118359570

Of course I go to my doctor if I am sick, and trust their advice. But if they tell me one thing at first, and then subsequently change that because their initial advice was wrong, it is normal that I might say "well hang on what else are they wrong about"

For instance, 12 months ago, we were told by the experts that a potential benefit of vaccination was herd immunity. That was clearly wrong. It as wrong because they over estimated the efficacy of the vaccinations. And that's OK, because a lot of this is unknown given that it is novel.

But what is not OK is to say "you're not entitled to question what other unknowns there are or what else the experts were wrong about".

The vaccine should be questioned but only with facts, not reposting crap that you seen elsewhere but you couldn't be bothered to fact check.

Fair enough, feel free to pull me up whenever I repost crap that I can't be bothered to fact check.

RoboRat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118359600#Comment_118359600

I'm fatally allergic to penicillin (anaphylaxis). I can prove this and there are hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people globally who are also allergic, so it should be banned!

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118359600#Comment_118359600

Is the risk of a serious adverse reaction to a miniscule % of people worth it to for the benefit of the majority of the people.

Of course that's a valid question. It's a risk/benefit question and the basis of all medical interventions.

For many eg healthy 5 year olds the risk/benefit it is a perfectly rational question to say if the risk of a serious adverse reaction to the disease is miniscule then why vaccinate against it?

The miniscule risks for healthy children are well documented and accepted by experts, not by random youtuber CTs.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118359592#Comment_118359592

Of course I'm not saying that. Pharma companies would not need liability from reactions if they were competely without adverse reaction.

However, we're in the middle of a world wide pandemic which has impacted our world like no other virus ever in the history of mankind. Technology has allowed it to spread across the world so that pretty much every country in the world has been impacted.

It is also a novel sars virus which has been historically difficult to make a common vaccine for, as it mutates quite often.

So from that point of view, do I accept that this vaccine might be more "cutting edge" than others that have been developed on the last 100 years. Absolutely.

Do I accept a higher vaccine mortality rate than those developed in the last 100 years.

Yes I do. (even though that's yet to be proved)

Covid has killed nearly 6 million people world wide. That figure is probably much higher due to testing and recording issues in poorer countries.

The UK had had 5 deaths directly linked to the Covid vaccine. Out of what, nearly 50 million cases???

You do the math and argue its an unacceptable risk

robinph

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118359582#Comment_118359582

But there is not cries of lies, lies, lies. The theories are questioned. Explanation of how non ferrous coins would stick to someones arm if it was magnetic were asked, questions of why Bill Gates wanted to kill us all, why 5g chips would be put in vaccines, etc etc. The theories are questioned, but no responses are ever given, just changes of topics.

There are not indicators of a severe number of reactions to the vaccines. That is just people not understanding the numbers or lying about what they mean.

Lex Luthor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118358001#Comment_118358001

what do the stats show in relation to deaths? 99.5% for the majority of the population

The hospitals are always overwhelmed, dont blame covid for that, blame the inept govt

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118359649#Comment_118359649

whats the source for the 5 deaths in the UK? Genuinely interested to read it, not trying to be a smart alec.

sydthebeat

Here's lexy back with his dishonest "deflect, deflect, deflect" schtick.

You can say thanks for me answering your question yesterday, by the way

Lex Luthor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118358423#Comment_118358423

whats the classification of unvaccinated?

Do you actually know?

If you die within the first 14 days of getting it you are classed as unvaccinated

Let that sink in

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118359674#Comment_118359674

I appreciate your not. You are obviously someone who can be debated with.

https://blog.ons.gov.uk/2021/10/04/how-many-people-have-died-as-a-result-of-a-covid-19-vaccine/

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118359681#Comment_118359681

Again, complete ignorance of how vaccines work.

Well done on making yourself look so stupid.

King Mob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118359470#Comment_118359470

It comes from these databases, which come with warnings that not every adverse reaction can be automatically attributed to the vaccine. That's just common sense. But equally it is common sense that some of them will have been caused by the vaccine.

Ok. Which ones are caused by the vaccines and how do you know? How many were caused by the vaccines?

As has been pointed out by robinph, the reports don't seem all that different from the reports about other drugs. Can you show otherwise?

You have claimed that the volume of reports is some kind of indicator. How did you reach this conclusion?

We've asked this to conspiracy theorists too, but guess what they did.

I haven't seen anybody claim "that all of the adverse effects listed on those websites are definitely caused by the vaccines" - I think you are lying. Why?

Conspiracy theorists have repeatedly claimed that for example 30,000 deaths were caused by the vaccine using these numbers. This was the bare number of reports of death on the website. There was no attempt to clarify or specify these numbers.

Similarly, theorists in general, but Lex in particular have listed long lists of the adverse reactions, but made no attempt to explain how they were shown to be due to the vaccine.

If you think I'm lying, all you have to do is ask the conspiracy theorists if that's what they're claiming. Good luck getting a straight answer though.

No I don't believe it. I'm ignoring it because it is ridiculous.

Yes, it's ridiculous and wrong and clearly not at all supported by facts, reality or sense.

Why shouldn't we point out that this is what conspiracy theorists are claiming?

Why are you ignoring it ti pretend that conspiracy theorists are only making reasonable arguments?

Do you think that Lex there is making rational and honest arguments?

RoboRat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118359628#Comment_118359628

The information and treatment is changing and it's no different to the flu which mutates every year. The vaccine was new and until it was out there, it was only data from a small groupset and based on one version of the virus. The virus mutated, as they do, and this probably affected the ability to prevent transmission.

I get what you're saying, my main reason to take the vaccine was because I felt if it stopped the virus from transmission, it was worth it. It doesn't but it stops the risk of developing serious illness, which is a big win. It was a big decision for me to take the vaccine as I have past experience of my body going nuclear when taking a medication, but I felt it was worth it.

I have no problem with questioning but I think it's prudent to question both sides. I always loop back to the simple question... if this is all a big scam, who benefits...

Governments? I don't think so, this virus has radicalised a lot of people and I see a changes afoot, and not good ones.

The pharmaceuticals? Again, I cant see the world bending over to accommodate the profit margins of private companies.

Bill Gates/ the new world order? Nope, too many cogs involved for that to go unnoticed. If you have ever managed a team or project you would know how hard it is to get a small group of people to agree to something and impossible to keep it secret.

More control- or a social scoring system? Everything is already tracked or could easily be tracked, I don't buy that.

This event has been the only event in the world where pretty much all governments are in agreement - this is unprecedented really. Perhaps that's because the threat is real or for arguments sake, the perceived threat is real.

King Mob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118359744#Comment_118359744

I have no problem with questioning but I think it's prudent to question both sides. I always loop back to the simple question... if this is all a big scam, who benefits...

And one wonders if a small group of media grifters could make some money by spreading fear and misinformation to people on the internet...

RoboRat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118359664#Comment_118359664

That I can agree upon. The HSE is a blueprint of how not to run a health service. I would argue however, that the government has always been hamstrung regrading change as the unions and civil service wield the power.

The reason we have the lockdowns is because the HSE in unable to deal with a surge and rather than testing it, they had to limit the chances of said surge. Once this was in the community, containment was like catching a fart with a fishing net. So, the option was to take the chance and hope that the HSE could deal with it or try to control the spread to give the HSE a chance to deal with it, but over a longer period. Hence, lockdowns. Minimising contact minimises transmission - it will still spread, just not as fast.

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118359687#Comment_118359687

Ok so that points out the 5 deaths are the number that a doctor/coroner has certified have been directly caused by the vaccine. And it also points out that the Yellow Card numbers are higher (1,645), but with the caveat that the element of self reporting makes these likely to be overestimated.

However they include another caveat in relation to the figure of 5:

The deaths registrations numbers are likely to rise, as numbers feed through following delays, but they can be expected to remain far lower than those shown in the Yellow Card data.

Seems perfectly reasonable. The numbers will rise as more info becomes known and they can identify which of the Yellow Card reports are caused by vaccines and which can be ignored. No problem with any of that. To be expected.

The key point is it is unknown, precisely because covid is a novel virus, as you point out. And if it is unknown, the vaccines cannot be definitively claimed to be safe. Sure they might be safe enough in a risk/benefit analysis but that analysis should be carried out for an individual. It is very different for an 80 year old with cardiovascular issues and hypertension than a healthy 18 year old.

Instead we are talking about mandatory vaccines for entire populations irrespective of age or health profile, based on claims that the benefits outweigh the rewards. There is very little evidence for that.

I'd also ask why is it OK to accuse somebody of spreading misinformation/lying etc if they claim 1,645 deaths from Yellow Card whilst ignoring the caveat that the figure is likely to be overestimated, but taking the figure of 5 deaths whilst ignoring the caveat that this is likely to be underestimated can be taken as fact?

Both claims seem equally disingenuous to me.

RoboRat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118359772#Comment_118359772

There are more sinister things afoot. This for example: https://infto.ie/

When I questioned this I was met with a barrage of insults ranging from being a sheep to spreading disinformation. The amount of times I seen this site quoted on social media by anti vaxxers was insane. Everything I posted was fact checked but I still got abused.

The guy behind it was working for a pharmaceutical company who were trying to get approval for a new therapeutic in Ireland. Nobody I talked to in the healthcare industry had heard of the INFTO (funny how it's similar to INMTO, the actual union). All the testimonies were redacted or unverifiable and there was only one person associated with this movement. The guy behind it was a nurse, yet only served 3 months with the HSE I think (he removed his LinkedIn profile when people started questioning him).

And best of all, the last line of their official statement was 'The failure of management to review, test or acknowledge the potential benefits of treatments such as Ivermectin for those patients suffering with the respiratory infection known as SARS CoV2.' ...Any guesses what therapeutic the company he worked for were producing?

This is a real conspiracy theory yet the conspiracy theorists went nuts and defended it, no questions asked. This is why people get so hot and bothered about conspiracy theories regarding Covid - they are not your garden variety who killed JFK or do Aliens live in my underpants. This crap is what people are using as backup to deter people from believing (a) covid is real and (b) that vaccines are dangerous.

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118359744#Comment_118359744

I have no problem with questioning but I think it's prudent to question both sides. I always loop back to the simple question... if this is all a big scam, who benefits...

Governments? I don't think so, this virus has radicalised a lot of people and I see a changes afoot, and not good ones.

Totally agree with this, and it's not plausible that governments across the world are in cahoots with big pharma for dollars. I struggle to find a plausible answer for the collective madness to be honest.

But it is exactly why I posed the question earlier:

To me the interesting conspiracy theory is why everybody is falling over themselves to defend what are at best pretty rubbish vaccines and at worst dangerous

I don't actually think it is some nefarious conspiracy theory. The only thing I can come up with is governments are paralysed with fear of the unknown, and have pinned all their hopes on these vaccines. Now there is very little appetite to row back and say OK, maybe the mass vaccination strategy is not working out as well as we had hoped and this stance is aided and abetted by the groupthink in public opinion, largely caused by the volumes who have already taken the vaccine. i.e once you have decided to take the vaccine you have a vested interest in it being the correct decision.

RoboRat

[quote]Instead we are talking about mandatory vaccines for entire populations irrespective of age or health profile, based on claims that the benefits outweigh the rewards. There is very little evidence for that.[/quote]

Can you provide evidence of mandatory? I haven't seen anyone being forced to get vaccinated. Also, the government have been quite clear that the choice to vaccinate over 5's will be a personal choice of the parents. The fact that there are still unvaccinated adults proves there is no mandatory regime.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118359835#Comment_118359835

i used the figure of 5 as that is the only confirmed number that i could find. if you can find more confirmed then fine. and of course i expect that figure to rise as time goes by.

how is it disingenuous for me to actually offer you the link where i got the figure from, so that you can read the article yourself?

but even at that, why are you focusing on deaths? what about the real world effects of covid on a child? who knows the long term risks?

would you risk your childs long term health on the basis of being vaccine hesitant?

Evidence from the first study of long covid in children suggests that more than half of children aged between 6 and 16 years old who contract the virus have at least one symptom lasting more than 120 days, with 42.6 per cent impaired by these symptoms during daily activities. These interim results are based on periodic assessments of 129 children in Italy who were diagnosed with covid-19 between March and November 2020 at the Gemelli University Hospital in Rome

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7927578/

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118359896#Comment_118359896

Despite the coercion, there is no mandatory regime in place here, and it would be ridiculous to do so. I am hopeful it will not come to that since both Taoiseach and tanaiste have spoken out against it.

I just said we are talking about it. It is being openly discussed as sensible policy both here and particularly in Brussels. If the EU issue a directive on mandatory vaccines we have no choice but to follow it.

If you'd said a year ago that the EU would be proposing mandatory vaccines I suspect that would have been dismissed as a conspiracy theory.

RoboRat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118359869#Comment_118359869

What's the alternative to vaccines? Whilst they are not working as anticipated, the transmission is high yet the hospitalisations/ ICU are nowhere near what they were last year before the vaccine.

There are several theories (1) the vaccine protects against serious illness (2) more people have had it and therefore built up immunity and (3) the virus is mutating and the new variants are more transmissible but less likely to cause serious illness (the sole purpose of a virus is to multiply, not kill). It's probably a bit of everything realistically, but this is progress. Until there is an alternative, why would they hamper progress.

Lastly, of course there is paralysis of the unknown - people's lives are at stake. 6 million deaths thus far, you have to wonder what would have happened if governments just done nothing.

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118359918#Comment_118359918

i used the figure of 5 as that is the only confirmed number that i could find. if you can find more confirmed then fine. and of course i expect that figure to rise as time goes by.

how is it disingenuous for me to actually offer you the link where i got the figure from, so that you can read the article yourself?

Sure and when I read the link myself I discovered there was a caveat saying the number was likely to be higher, just as with Yellow Card there is a caveat that number was likely to be lower. Given the fury caused on here by disregarding Yellow Card's caveats I just thought same standards should be applied.

but even at that, why are you focusing on deaths? what about the real world effects of covid on a child? who knows the long term risks?

I'm not focussed on deaths at all. I think, whilst obviously the most serious side effect, that death is likely to be the rarest to the point of insignificance. I was merely responding to your post when you brought up the figure of 5 deaths.

would you risk your childs long term health on the basis of being vaccine hesitant?

It's a risk/benefit analysis. There is a potential risk to my child's long term health from both infection and vaccination. Currently I feel more comfortable with the risks from infection than I do from vaccination for my child. I have made this decision solely on NIAC's specific recommendations, not some random youtuber.

https://rcpi-live-cdn.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/NIAC-Recommendations-on-COVID-19-vaccination-for-children-aged-5-to-11-years.pdf

sydthebeat

i dont have any particular problem with that decision, your child, your choice.

But i do have a problem with you presenting it as though NIAC recommendation was for not to be vaccinated. NIAC recommends that every child (5 -12) be offered the vaccine.

you are happy to run the risk that your child will not develop a long term serious health problem if they catch covid, fair enough.

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118360083#Comment_118360083

I certainly did not intend to suggest NIAC explicitly recommend that children are not vaccinated. They deliberately avoid making a specific recommendation.

As you say they simply recommend the vaccines should be offered and that it is up to parents to make the decision based on the best currently available information. Most of the report is NIAC presenting that information and that is what I based the decision on.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118358469#Comment_118358469

https://www.pharmaceutical-technology.com/features/russia-astrazeneca-accused-stealing-data-covid-19-vaccine/

Russia is suspected of stealing the blueprints for the AZ vaccine..

Shilock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118360083#Comment_118360083

So do the benifets outweigh the risks or the risks outweigh the benefits.

I would find it hard to cope if I had my my son vaccinated against covid and he developed ischemia or myocardial infarction.

Id be hedging my bets on natural imunity, because his grandparents and I are vaccinated.

I've no issue with people getting the covid vaccine for their kid's, but I'd have an issue with my own conscious decision, it's a hard choice to make.