GDPR and Irish politics.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118359131#Comment_118359131

I am finding it difficult to understand how yous can label something you know about as a secret tbh

Its maddeningly inconsistant with the meaning of the words.....have no issue with wanting it deleted,as commonsense to do so.....but its simply not a secret imo

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118359131#Comment_118359131

A 'secret' is when you do something and tell nobody about it. Party members knew about this and were trained to use it.

You are confusing not knowing about it and a 'secret'.

jmcc

The database had been mentioned in SF election literature and had been around for a few years. Was SF so good at keeping secrets that a document that it published for its election workers remained in SF hands until the Sindo/Indo acquired or were given it years later?

Regards...jmcc

Ha Long Bay

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118359143#Comment_118359143

Will try once more and then I give up. When the media exposed it back in April 2021 it was a secret database that regular voters like myself had no idea existed.

I then requested to see if I was listed on this secret database and found out I was and have asked to be delisted as I never gave permission for my information to be recorded.

I am not claiming that the database is secret now. I am saying it was in until it was exposed back in April by journalists.

SF never asked for my permission to allow them to have my information stored on their secret database and did so without my knowledge.

I would also highly recommend people to email dataprotection@sinnfein.ie if they have similar concerns about their data being stored without permission.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118359161#Comment_118359161

It wasn't secret...YOU just didn't know about it.

This is not hard to grasp as a concept. There is loads of stuff out there you don't know about but isn't a 'secret'.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118359161#Comment_118359161

A secret database is one you dont know exists.....would you not feel then its a misnomer to request to see if you were listed upon something you dont know about??

The minute yous found out,it ceases to be a secret....if yous had a secret affair and your parthner found and starting how long it going on etc etc....would you still refer to said affair as a secret?

Ha Long Bay

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118359170#Comment_118359170

How come I was not informed when my information was entered into the database without my permission?

Your defense of this is pathetic to say the least. If you found out that FF or FG had your name on some random secret database without consent I am sure you would be hand waving it away just like here?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118359177#Comment_118359177

The database,is fundamentally,the electoral register....id be stunned if ff or fg didnt have my name upon it....given i get leaflets every election off em

jmcc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118359177#Comment_118359177

There was a data breach of an ICANN registrar a few months ago and it had been scraping the WHOIS records of .COM and other domain names for a few years. Approximately 15 million e-mail addresses were affected even though most of them had no connection to the registrar and they added to the haveibeenpwned website (a site which tracks compromised websites and databreaches and where people can check if their e-mail address was included in any breach). Most people, yourself included, have a data footprint of which they are completely unaware.

Regards...jmcc

Ha Long Bay

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118359187#Comment_118359187

It's not though that's why there is a problem with it. Keep spinning it though like that a few like minded posters might agree.

jmcc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118359187#Comment_118359187

How could those brilliant scribblers in the Sindo have missed that SF had Micheal Martin, Leo Varadkar and FFG in their database? :)

Regards...jmcc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118359207#Comment_118359207

It is though....the report clearly stated there nothing illegal about keeping it and/or yous voting intentions (but still feel if ya request it deleted,you should be indulged)

Your being taken for a mug by what media yous consume,in the hope yous make silly infersions....hence why media referes to ff/fg holding onto peoples voting intentions,while refered to shinners as retaining info on people,despite both being the same....

yous are free to dislike and never vote for shinners,or anyone else,but dont let indo etc make a mug out of yous

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118359177#Comment_118359177

Because like many others they were not compliant. It STILL doesn't make it a secret.

You should enquire of many organisations what info they are holding on you, not just when the Indo prints some sensationalism.

I discovered last year that an organisation was holding info on me...it wasn't doing it secretly, they were just not compliant.

jmcc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118359207#Comment_118359207

The DPC made her recommendations and SF complied. The problem for FFG and its supporters is that there is no longer an issue as far as the DPC is concerned and SF is in compliance with GDPR. Other parties had issues to resolve as well.

Regards...jmcc

Ha Long Bay

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118359217#Comment_118359217

I put your post into google translate and still no wiser as to what you are saying. Lets leave it for tonight.

Ha Long Bay

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118359223#Comment_118359223

Did you know about the SF database prior to April 2021? I didn't so I would class that as a secret database where I never gave any permission to have my data recorded. If you think that's all above board that's your opinion.

I never did and have requested twice to be delisted. Not sure why that's a problem for you.

If FF or FG or any other party did the same would you just accept it? What organization did you find last year holding data on you? How did you resolve it?

The SF database was secret to me until journalists made me aware so it was a secret. Did you know about it before then?

Ha Long Bay

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118359226#Comment_118359226

What is FFG? Do you mean FF and FG who are two separate parties? I see it used a fair bit in the dregs of the journal.ie comments.

Have they combined? I have not got any communications yet from SF that my details were illegally stored in a database.

What issues have other parties have to resolve apart from update some wording around GDPR?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118359277#Comment_118359277

Just because you didn't know doesn't mean it was secret...this is not rocket science. You might not know Paris is the capital of France, that is not a secret now is it?

And yes, I was aware of the Abu system before the Indo (pointlessly now as it turns out) snesationally got some knickers in a twist. If you are concerned about data being stored you SHOULD be asking more than SF as I found out.

Ha Long Bay

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118359298#Comment_118359298

How did you know about it? Did you have access to the secret database?

Why was I not informed my data was being recorded there without my permission?

You seem upset the media exposed this. I am glad they did. If anyone else has concerns please contact: dataprotection@sinnfein.ie 

jmcc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118359284#Comment_118359284

It is faster to type and people can't tell the difference between FF and FG now. Were your details stored illegally? The source was the electoral register.

It is in the report. It is about 54 pages or so but the link to it was posted upthread.

Regards...jmcc

Ha Long Bay

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118359317#Comment_118359317

If you have time to type out a signature after every post surely you can take the time to post FF FG over FFG.

I never asked for my information to be stored in an illegal SF database it does not matter what it's based on.

Ill ask again if FF FG GP Labour etc. or any other party did this with your information would you be here defending it? I doubt it.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118359310#Comment_118359310

Jesus. They, like others were not in compliance and got a rap on the knuckles from the regulator.

That still doesn't mean they were keeping the existence of it a secret. If you want to keep something secret, you don't print literature about how to use it that could end up anywhere. Think about what you are saying here.

jmcc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118359321#Comment_118359321

I've been using the signature for so long that it is purely muscle memory. A lot of people tend to refer to the government parties as FFG.

Was the database illegal? Or was it just not compliant with GDPR? The DPC seems to have published a report on the issue.

In terms of data, I am a cynical realist. Lots of organisations store information and data on people without their knowledge. You might be better off reading Bruce Schneier's book "Data and Goliath: The Hidden Battles to Collect Your Data and Control Your World" rather than relying on the Sindo/Indo. If you really want to get upset about this kind of thing then read Chris Wiley's book on the Cambridge Analytica scandal "Mindf*ck".

What interests me is the technology and the methodology. FF did purchase a copy of the marked electoral register a few years ago but that was when it could afford the likes of Blue State Digital (a US consultancy that also worked for the Democrat Party). SF is just doing what has been done outside Ireland for decades. FF, FG and Labour were just stuck in a 19th century form of clientalism politics. I would be equally interested in the activities of other parties when it comes to this kind of database work and how it impacted elections. What is there to defend? SF is now GDPR compliant according to the DPC. Should I take the word of the experts here over that of the DPC?

Regards...jmcc

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118358982#Comment_118358982

Wrote a report on it, AFTER it was exposed.....

It is not that hard to comprehend, but you are doing a masterful job of feigned ignorance or just ol plain ignorance.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118358988#Comment_118358988

You are repeating the same ol stuff now.

Pretty much any online or technical service has a backend DB of some sort. Do we even know SF use WordPress or Joomla as part if their 'Abu' system? Why are you repeating the same talking points? Because you may know a little about CMS?

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118359298#Comment_118359298

The point is

a) The DPC didnt know about the database

b) The database was not GDPR compliant

c) People had their personal details entered into the database without their consent

d) The DPC state that SF must make the electorate aware of the database on all its literature

e) They must contact everyone in the database to let them know they have their personal details on file

f) They must comply with the DPC recommendations by early 2022 or face severe sanctions.

jmcc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118359368#Comment_118359368

Sometimes it is necessary to repeat things when people don't understand them. The point had to do with the rather grandiose "bespoke database" term used in the DPC report.

CMSes back in the early days of the web used to use static files or programs like Dreamweaver, Frontpage or NetObjects to publlish websites with static web pages with the site's database of webpages being maintained offline. There were some attempts at database backed CMSes but the high end commercial versions were too complex for most users and required expensive database software like Oracle. Wordpress and Joomla changed all that and made it cheap and easy to build database backed CMS websites. It has gotten to the stage where people don't even seem to realise that there is a database involved or that the schema is relatively standard (Wordpress default schema or Joomla default schema) for each installation of these CMSes. I doubt that SF would bother telling you if it used Joomla or Wordpress for the front end of its Abu system but you could always ask them.

Regards...jmcc

jmcc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118359368#Comment_118359368

This is the post that seemed to cause problems for yourself and Andrew:

"The phrase "bespoke database" sounds rather odd. Perhaps it means that it is not like a Wordpress or Joomla database which has a standard schema (structure) that does not vary from installation to installation. The report is quite mild and finds fault with other parties too. The fact that there were no sanctions or fines must be really upsetting for FG and its supporters in the media. Whatever credibility those FG supporters in the media had is damaged by the findings in the report which just amounted to a set of recommendations to make things compliant with GDPR."

This is where things seem to go off down a rabbit hole with the comment below from Andrew that completely misses the point and the fact that both Wordpress and Joomla use default database schema for their typical installations. That standardisation makes it easy for people to install these CMSes without having to be proficient in SQL.

"Wordpress and Joomla aren't databases. They are content management systems. There is no standard database structure. They can both be configured to provide database functions, probably using add-ins."

The user creates a database and the installation script, in the case of Wordpress executes the SQL to create the tables that Wordpress requires. Joomla uses a similar approach. There is an element of customisation available with both CMSes that allows the user to add a prefix to the table names without changing the database's structure and how each CMS uses those tables in their respective databases. It is amazing how a simple criticism of the choice of a phrase could cause such problems.

Regards,,,jmcc

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118358941#Comment_118358941

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118359375#Comment_118359375

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118359414#Comment_118359414

And again, eh no, I'm not wrong. And more patronisation again doesn't help. Repetition doesn't help. People understood your post, but you missed the target. Wordpress and Joomla are CMSs. That's what they do. That they have a native DB facility is moot. This isn't like a little MS Access project you can run on your local laptop. A canvassing tracking tool is going to require proper database, with its own server capability, not mixed up with a web server. This isn't going to be a 'CMS website'. This is an online database application.

On the 'delta' issue, as mentioned earlier, there is no unique identifier for each person on the register, so you can't do a delta to see what has changed. You have to look at the entire register every time it is issued. You've no idea if the Andrew Renko at 6 Hill St in this register is the same Andrew Renko at 6 Hill St in the last register. You probably won't get Snr or Jnr, and if you do, they will be in maddeningly inconsistent and variable formats making them near impossible to use programmatically. You can make some guesses, about joiners and leavers to the register, but they will be just that - guesses. If you guess wrong, you could be breaching legislation again btw.

What 'other sources' would be available to a political party to supplement the register?

The problem here seems to be your own lack of understanding of 'bespoke' in terms of software development. It is an industry standard term, to distinguish between custom development and off-the-shelf software (COTS). Here's some examples of how it is used;

I'm not having a go at you personally. I broadly agree with your conclusions about SF, that their sins on this matter are mostly procedural. Your lack of understanding of bespoke is your own issue.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118359368#Comment_118359368

Bingo. When the only tool you only have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.