GDPR and Irish politics.

StupidLikeAFox · 10-05-2021 12:37pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

FFS, will you guys read threads?

I have said repeatedly that if SF have broken regs here they desreve to be fined for it.

The discussion has quickly widened out to what are they all up to with regard to data. We have seen websites taken down and we have an all party investigation.

The topic is GDPR and Irish politics. If you wish to confine it to SF there is a thread for that too.

In your post (that I quoted) you were talking about an article titled - "Data harvesting: Is it worse when Sinn Féin do it?".

If it would help, I was wondering of you drew a distinction between a local rep with an opinion and a centralised national database? You (and gene kerrigan) seem to be saying they are the same thing

FrancieBrady · 10-05-2021 12:43pm

StupidLikeAFox wrote: »

In your post (that I quoted) you were talking about an article titled - "Data harvesting: Is it worse when Sinn Féin do it?".

If it would help, I was wondering of you drew a distinction between a local rep with an opinion and a centralised national database? You (and gene kerrigan) seem to be saying they are the same thing

Where do I and Gene Kerrigan say it is the 'same' thing?

The same 'type' of thing, data harvesting maybe. Where does it stop...or more pertinently, how far has it gone across all parties is what I would like to know...wouldn't you?

It's clear quite a few have been caught in non compliance mode here.

jmcc · 10-05-2021 1:45pm

blanch152 wrote: »

I haven't read his column as it is behind a paywall, but are you seriously suggesting that Gene Kerrigan is comparing the computerising of anonymised tally records without any personal information with the Abu database which was building a personal individualised profile of every voter in the country???

To explain it simply for you, it was a clip from 1996. FF was collecting tally data. It also purchased a copy of the marked electoral register. There's even a quote about how this could be used for canvassing even down to a road level. The electora register contains the name of the voter, their address and their polling station/box. This kind of data, even with 1996 database software and hardware, would put a party like FF well ahead of the other parties if they were not doing the same thing. It would have allowed FF to focus their canvassing on areas more effectively.

There was no GDPR then. GDPR the product of people of intellects more suited to the 16th century trying to make legislation for a 21st century problem.

What FF did then is, apparently, not that different to what SF did with the Abu database. I did outline a simplified structure for one of these databases. While the data might have required some decent servers in 1996, the whole Irish electoral register and other data could easily be dealt on a mid-range laptop today.

Regards...jmcc

blanch152 · 10-05-2021 2:30pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

If they have.

Some have decided they have.

Think it was Mary-Lou who admitted on TV to two breaches of GDPR and accepted that there may be more, depending on the DPC outcome.

Might as well start with those breaches.

blanch152 · 10-05-2021 2:39pm

jmcc wrote: »

To explain it simply for you, it was a clip from 1996. FF was collecting tally data. It also purchased a copy of the marked electoral register. There's even a quote about how this could be used for canvassing even down to a road level. The electora register contains the name of the voter, their address and their polling station/box. This kind of data, even with 1996 database software and hardware, would put a party like FF well ahead of the other parties if they were not doing the same thing. It would have allowed FF to focus their canvassing on areas more effectively.

There was no GDPR then. GDPR the product of people of intellects more suited to the 16th century trying to make legislation for a 21st century problem.

What FF did then is, apparently, not that different to what SF did with the Abu database. I did outline a simplified structure for one of these databases. While the data might have required some decent servers in 1996, the whole Irish electoral register and other data could easily be dealt on a mid-range laptop today.

Regards...jmcc

Again, like Kerrigan, you don't seem to understand GDPR or tallies.

Firstly, it would be a long road to be the only one in a ballot box. It would be more a housing estate per ballot box. Secondly, identifying that FF got 100 votes from a ballot box containing 300 voters is not a breach of GDPR. It does not and cannot identify individuals. Thirdly, there is a vast difference between that practice and the creation of a national electronic database accessible to all members of Sinn Fein and containing more information than the voting register.

The difference is huge. I suspect that those trying to conflate it (including Kerrigan) are aware that there is big trouble for Sinn Fein coming with this and want to drag others into trouble no matter the cost.

FrancieBrady · 10-05-2021 2:40pm

blanch152 wrote: »

Think it was Mary-Lou who admitted on TV to two breaches of GDPR and accepted that there may be more, depending on the DPC outcome.

Might as well start with those breaches.

They weren't compliant in two respects. They fixed them. Was there a fine? Not to my knowledge anyhow.

Perspective required here again blanch. These are 'breaches of regulations for which the penalty is a fine'. They are not criminal investigations for which the penalty is a prison term.

Much as you want to see hanging brought back for GDPR offences, they won't be.

Do houses need to be put in order? Yes, with websites going down, and SF fixing compliance issues, it seems that yes, houses across the board have to be put in order.

blanch152 · 10-05-2021 2:43pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

FFS, will you guys read threads?

I have said repeatedly that if SF have broken regs here they desreve to be fined for it.

The discussion has quickly widened out to what are they all up to with regard to data. We have seen websites taken down and we have an all party investigation.

The topic is GDPR and Irish politics. If you wish to confine it to SF there is a thread for that too.

Sorry, Francie, the only people who have widened it are yourself and Gene Kerrigan (hopefully he isn't doing an Eoghan Harris on this).

There is no issue with what tallyman do. The issue is Sinn Fein inputting information they glean from Facebook and the doorstep into a national electronic database accessible to any member of Sinn Fein (including hardened criminals like Dowdall) without the consent of the individual. There is no legal basis for them to do that. Every GDPR expert in the country says they are in big trouble.

No point in us going down sidetracks when the real issue is the Abu database.

blanch152 · 10-05-2021 2:45pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

They weren't compliant in two respects.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

If they have.

Some have decided they have.

You are contradicting yourself. Only a few minutes ago you questioned whether SF had broken regulations. Now you are admitting they had.

FrancieBrady · 10-05-2021 2:48pm

blanch152 wrote: »

Sorry, Francie, the only people who have widened it are yourself and Gene Kerrigan (hopefully he isn't doing an Eoghan Harris on this).

There is no issue with what tallyman do. The issue is Sinn Fein inputting information they glean from Facebook and the doorstep into a national electronic database accessible to any member of Sinn Fein (including hardened criminals like Dowdall) without the consent of the individual. There is no legal basis for them to do that. Every GDPR expert in the country says they are in big trouble.

No point in us going down sidetracks when the real issue is the Abu database.

We know that most of them are not compliant according to expert testimony in the Irish Examiner and attested to by websites being taken down.

You are handwaving away significant information again.

blanch152 · 10-05-2021 2:53pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

We know that most of them are not compliant according to expert testimony in the Irish Examiner and attested to by websites being taken down.

You are handwaving away significant information again.

You are comparing someone who inadvertently went over the speed limit to a drunken driver who kills someone and equating them.

Every organisation has problems complying with GDPR in small minor ways. Very few organisations drive a coach and horse through GDPR regulations in the way that Sinn Fein have.

FrancieBrady · 10-05-2021 2:59pm

blanch152 wrote: »

You are contradicting yourself. Only a few minutes ago you questioned whether SF had broken regulations. Now you are admitting they had.

If they had broken regs they'd be fined. They were informed they weren't in compliance, and fixed it.

Remains to be seen if they will be fined for breaking regs.

That's my read of it.

jmcc · 10-05-2021 3:04pm

blanch152 wrote: »

Again, like Kerrigan, you don't seem to understand GDPR or tallies.

I understand GDPR. I have to deal with the mess that it created every day. I've even read the legislation.

Firstly, it would be a long road to be the only one in a ballot box.

This is simply a data problem where a process of reducing the error would be applied and it could also use external data sources to do that.

It would be more a housing estate per ballot box. Secondly, identifying that FF got 100 votes from a ballot box containing 300 voters is not a breach of GDPR. It does not and cannot identify individuals.

It comes down to probabilities and local intelligence. The local canvassers would provide that local intelligence and it would not be difficult to produce an estimate of support based on the data. It would be far better than that Numerology of opinion polls.

Thirdly, there is a vast difference between that practice and the creation of a national electronic database accessible to all members of Sinn Fein and containing more information than the voting register.

No there is not.

The problem with non-experts talking about databases and their creation is that they haven't a clue about how to do it and don't know how it is done. The dataset for a national voter database using the electoral register is small.
The term you might hear if you spoke to database designers and developers about it is "trivial". This is a word used to describe problems that could be solved over the duration of a coffee break.

Perhaps to you, and the average web developer, a few million rows of information might sound massive. It is not. It would only take a few minutes to load that data into a well designed database table. Multiple tables could be used depending on the complexity required. However, the main target of such a design would be simplicity and it is a relatively simple dataset.

The difference is huge.

No it is not.

I suspect that those trying to conflate it (including Kerrigan) are aware that there is big trouble for Sinn Fein coming with this and want to drag others into trouble no matter the cost.

The point that Kerrigan was making was that this kind of data usage has been ongoing for decades.

Regards...jmcc

blanch152 · 10-05-2021 4:42pm

jmcc wrote: »

I understand GDPR. I have to deal with the mess that it created every day. I've even read the legislation.

This is simply a data problem where a process of reducing the error would be applied and it could also use external data sources to do that.

It comes down to probabilities and local intelligence. The local canvassers would provide that local intelligence and it would not be difficult to produce an estimate of support based on the data. It would be far better than that Numerology of opinion polls.

No there is not.

The problem with non-experts talking about databases and their creation is that they haven't a clue about how to do it and don't know how it is done. The dataset for a national voter database using the electoral register is small.
The term you might hear if you spoke to database designers and developers about it is "trivial". This is a word used to describe problems that could be solved over the duration of a coffee break.

Perhaps to you, and the average web developer, a few million rows of information might sound massive. It is not. It would only take a few minutes to load that data into a well designed database table. Multiple tables could be used depending on the complexity required. However, the main target of such a design would be simplicity and it is a relatively simple dataset.

No it is not.

The point that Kerrigan was making was that this kind of data usage has been ongoing for decades.

Regards...jmcc

If you don't believe me, look up the words of Helen Dixon before the Dail committee where she specificially referenced the creation of a national electronic database as being a bigger issue.

jmcc · 10-05-2021 6:11pm

blanch152 wrote: »

If you don't believe me, look up the words of Helen Dixon before the Dail committee where she specificially referenced the creation of a national electronic database as being a bigger issue.

She was non-committal in her evidence as it was a hypothetical question and there were no hard details.

Regards...jmcc

blanch152 · 11-05-2021 11:23am

jmcc wrote: »

She was non-committal in her evidence as it was a hypothetical question and there were no hard details.

Regards...jmcc

She pointed clearly to the difference between a highly organised central national electronic database and a tallyman with a battered copy of an electoral register.

You would think that a journalist like Kerrigan would also understand the difference (unless he is agenda-driven).

jmcc · 20-05-2021 2:26pm

Looks like the DPC is going to investigate all parties. Not quite what the Sindo/Indo expected with its non-story about SF's Abu database.

https://www.thejournal.ie/dpc-audit-political-parties-5442385-May2021/

Regards...jmcc

beakerjoe · 20-05-2021 3:40pm

jmcc wrote: »

Looks like the DPC is going to investigate all parties. Not quite what the Sindo/Indo expected with its non-story about SF's Abu database.

https://www.thejournal.ie/dpc-audit-political-parties-5442385-May2021/

Regards...jmcc

All parties have had weeks to prepare for this, so it will be interesting to see if anything huge pops up.

Im not expecting a whole lot of issues cropping up, but sure I'll wait n see.

jmcc · 20-05-2021 3:45pm

beakerjoe wrote: »

All parties have had weeks to prepare for this, so it will be interesting to see if anything huge pops up.

Im not expecting a whole lot of issues cropping up, but sure I'll wait n see.

The audit covers the period from the present to back to 25th May 2018 (the implementation of GDPR). It doesn't just cover the present handling of voter data.

Regards...jmcc

beakerjoe · 20-05-2021 3:46pm

jmcc wrote: »

The audit dates back to 2018 (the implementation of GDPR). It doesn't just cover the present handling of voter data.

Regards...jmcc

What do you believe they could find that would be backdated to 2018.

Surely if any data was unlawfully shared, they would have just deleted those emails or destroyed any evidence last week. ..... or now.

jmcc · 20-05-2021 3:53pm

beakerjoe wrote: »

What do you believe they could find that would be backdated to 2018.

Conduct over one presidential election, the European and Local Elections and one General Election. Lots of data to sift through.

Surely if any data was unlawfully shared, they would have just deleted those emails or destroyed any evidence last week. ..... or now.

Shredders working overtime?

Regards...jmcc

FrancieBrady · 20-05-2021 4:27pm

Apparently they are looking at how parties deal with info on their own members.

Timely review of what they are all up to. Well done Philip Ryan.

Floppybits · 20-05-2021 6:00pm

jmcc wrote: »

The audit covers the period from the present to back to 25th May 2018 (the implementation of GDPR). It doesn't just cover the present handling of voter data.

Regards...jmcc

The problem is that they have had plenty of notice of this now would have been much better if the data commissioner just arrived unannounced to do the audit.

jmcc · 20-05-2021 6:47pm

Floppybits wrote: »

The problem is that they have had plenty of notice of this now would have been much better if the data commissioner just arrived unannounced to do the audit.

It would be better but I'm not sure that the DPC has that kind of power. It seems completely reactive and advisory.

Regards...jmcc

FrancieBrady · 20-05-2021 6:53pm

Simon McGarr has been very good on all this.

https://twitter.com/Tupp_Ed/status/1385378960184430593

beakerjoe · 20-05-2021 7:51pm

He loves the sound of his own voice. Cant stand the bloke.

jmcc · 20-05-2021 8:43pm

Seems that only SF, the Greens and Labour are storing their data within the EU. FG and FF are storing data outside the EU. Who would have thunk it.

https://twitter.com/MarkAgitprop/status/1395328737177124864

Regards...jmcc

elperello · 20-05-2021 8:48pm

beakerjoe wrote: »

He loves the sound of his own voice. Cant stand the bloke.

Confident, authoritative and well spoken.

I can see how that sort of person gets up some peoples noses.

It's more like him we need.

beakerjoe · 20-05-2021 9:41pm

elperello wrote: »

Confident, authoritative and well spoken.

I can see how that sort of person gets up some peoples noses.

It's more like him we need.

Well spoken maybe, but Id say cocky with an underserved sens eif accomplishment

Hes not all hes cracked up to be

skimpydoo · 20-05-2021 10:55pm

jmcc wrote: »

Seems that only SF, the Greens and Labour are storing their data within the EU. FG and FF are storing data outside the EU. Who would have thunk it.

https://twitter.com/MarkAgitprop/status/1395328737177124864

Regards...jmcc

Philip Ryan must now regret opening this never ending can of worms.

markodaly · 21-05-2021 1:34am

jmcc wrote: »

Seems that only SF, the Greens and Labour are storing their data within the EU. FG and FF are storing data outside the EU. Who would have thunk it.

https://twitter.com/MarkAgitprop/status/1395328737177124864

Regards...jmcc

A nonsense tweet.

It is allowed to store data outside the EU or Ireland, once it's written into the T&C's and users are aware of it.

The issue we have with SF is that they had a secret electoral register that was populated by extra data that no one had any consent over.

THAT is the issue, consent.

This entire thread is a huge 'whatabout'

GDPR and Irish politics.

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