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Andrew Brown Shooting (US)

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    #122
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users Posts: 11,789 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    Overheal wrote: »
    You know what he meant though. Brown was just attempting to flee. Their fanning out made it difficult to do so without risk. He posed only as much danger to officers as they put themselves in.

    Well he shouldn't have tried to flee then, should he?

    Accidental or not, he did drive towards the cop and could have knocked him down. And he paid the price for that stupid action.


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    #123
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 83,443 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    They were cops. The vehicle was marked as a cop vehicle. The guys had badges on their arms etc.

    Again what we have here is a black person acting the boll1x and contributing towards their death. Obey the law and do what you're told and you'll likely survive your encounter. Act the boll1x and resist arrest and try flee while almost knocking over a cop only increases the chance of you ending up 6 feet under. By the way, if Andrew Brown was white, I'd expect the cops to act the same.

    Suggesting that Brown thought he was being executed as a reason for fleeing is boll1x. So should every black person resist arrest and flee whenever they see a cop and use the excuse that they thought they were being executed as their reason for fleeing?

    I'm also amazed with how psychic people are to be able to tell that Brown was fleeing because he thought he was going to be executed and not because he didn't want to get arrested.

    I’ve already been over why simply having SHERRIFF written on you does not demonstrate that you have lawful intent.


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    #124
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users Posts: 11,789 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    Overheal wrote: »
    You know what he meant though. Brown was just attempting to flee. Their fanning out made it difficult to do so without risk. He posed only as much danger to officers as they put themselves in.

    One other thing. The officers were there lawfully. They put themselves in that situation in order to do their job. Brown wasn't acting lawfully by trying to evade arrest.


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    #125
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 83,443 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    Well he shouldn't have tried to flee then, should he?

    Accidental or not, he did drive towards the cop and could have knocked him down. And he paid the price for that stupid action.

    I would have fled too. It would have looked like I was being executed. This police action is far too ambiguous to hold as legitimate


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    #126
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 83,443 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    One other thing. The officers were there lawfully. They put themselves in that situation in order to do their job. Brown wasn't acting lawfully by trying to evade arrest.

    How would I know the people pointing rifles at me are there lawfully? I have 3 seconds to potentially live. Trusting me to read their shirts behind their rifles is a huge gamble. No sirens?


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    #127
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users Posts: 11,789 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    Overheal wrote: »
    I’ve already been over why simply having SHERRIFF written on you does not demonstrate that you have lawful intent.

    You really are clutching at straws here.


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    #128
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users Posts: 11,789 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    Overheal wrote: »
    How would I know the people pointing rifles at me are there lawfully? I have 3 seconds to potentially live. Trusting me to read their shirts behind their rifles is a huge gamble. No sirens?

    Surprise raid. They were trying to arrest him when he wasn't expecting it. It's not unusual, it's a standard police tactic in most countries, including Ireland.

    Less chance of an armed conflict if you catch someone by surprise. Announce your arrival with sirens etc. and it gives the person the option of fleeing or arming themselves.

    Once again, if Brown had stopped and allowed himself to be arrested he would more than likely be alive today.


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    #129
    Penn
    Registered Users Posts: 33,827 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    I have to say from looking at that footage, I think the cops were justified. Brown didn't appear to be aiming the car at them and was trying to flee rather than injure/kill cops, but his actions also show that his intent was to escape and if the cops had not moved out of the way of the car, I believe Brown would have tried to drive through them regardless. And someone who is clearly attempting to flee from police and the likelihood of a car chase beginning, the cops has reasonable justification for trying to stop him and the vehicle.


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    #130
    tipptom
    Registered Users Posts: 4,219 ✭✭✭tipptom


    Penn wrote: »
    I have to say from looking at that footage, I think the cops were justified. Brown didn't appear to be aiming the car at them and was trying to flee rather than injure/kill cops, but his actions also show that his intent was to escape and if the cops had not moved out of the way of the car, I believe Brown would have tried to drive through them regardless. And someone who is clearly attempting to flee from police and the likelihood of a car chase beginning, the cops has reasonable justification for trying to stop him and the vehicle.

    If he got away and recklessly killed some black kids going to school then the cops would have been racist anyway with riots and protests

    If his car broke down and he ran into a house and kept a black family hostage the cops would have been racist and not caring about black communities.

    What person in their right mind,black or white,would look to join the cops in America


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    #131
    TomTomTim
    Registered Users Posts: 2,841 ✭✭✭TomTomTim


    tipptom wrote: »
    If he got away and recklessly killed some black kids going to school then the cops would have been racist anyway with riots and protests

    If his car broke down and he ran into a house and kept a black family hostage the cops would have been racist and not caring about black communities.

    What person in their right mind,black or white,would look to join the cops in America

    It was always a low paid, high cost job. That's been made a hundred times worse in the last few years. The affect of that alone will put a massive dent in the social fabric of America. I honestly can't see the country lasting for much longer, and I don't say that to be dramatic; I genuinely believe that America is heading down a road that they can't come back from.

    “The man who lies to himself can be more easily offended than anyone else. You know it is sometimes very pleasant to take offense, isn't it? A man may know that nobody has insulted him, but that he has invented the insult for himself, has lied and exaggerated to make it picturesque, has caught at a word and made a mountain out of a molehill--he knows that himself, yet he will be the first to take offense, and will revel in his resentment till he feels great pleasure in it.”- ― Fyodor Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov




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    #132
    hawley
    Registered Users Posts: 1,244 ✭✭✭hawley


    TomTomTim wrote: »
    It was always a low paid, high cost job. That's been made a hundred times worse in the last few years. The affect of that alone will put a massive dent in the social fabric of America. I honestly can't see the country lasting for much longer, and I don't say that to be dramatic; I genuinely believe that America is heading down a road that they can't come back from.

    The police have a duty of care to the person they are attesting too. It is still a disproportionately majority white office. Minorities and PoC feel alienated from the police force. They need to attract more people from diverse backgrounds. The talk is something we need to overcome. A lot of black people are scared when they encounter an officer.


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    #133
    Penn
    Registered Users Posts: 33,827 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    hawley wrote: »
    The police have a duty of care to the person they are attesting too. It is still a disproportionately majority white office. Minorities and PoC feel alienated from the police force. They need to attract more people from diverse backgrounds. The talk is something we need to overcome. A lot of black people are scared when they encounter an officer.

    I think it's also that the job has become something that too often attracts the wrong type of people. People who desire and abuse the power and authority. People who feel that by being a cop they're above being questioned. The militarisation and power fantasy that goes along with it. The job itself doesn't help that, with unions protecting the so called "bad apples" and enabling them, and creating a culture where even the good ones can't speak out against the bad.


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    #134
    Potential-Monke
    Registered Users Posts: 14,093 ✭✭✭✭Potential-Monke


    Here's why the softly softly approach is not usually used. They followed this lad for 10 minutes after he was identified by 2 separate calls for shooting in the area. They tried the softly softly approach and 2 of the cops ended up in hospital as he just turned around and shot at them. He's still alive too by the way.

    https://leoaffairs.com/bodycam-footage-released-of-two-chicago-police-officers-shot-man-held-on-10-million-bail/


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    #135
    Manic Moran
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,413 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    Potential-Monke wrote: »
    Here's why the softly softly approach is not usually used. They followed this lad for 10 minutes after he was identified by 2 separate calls for shooting in the area. They tried the softly softly approach and 2 of the cops ended up in hospital as he just turned around and shot at them. He's still alive too by the way.

    https://leoaffairs.com/bodycam-footage-released-of-two-chicago-police-officers-shot-man-held-on-10-million-bail/

    It also shows the problem of reaction time which we've been discussing from the 13-year-old thread. The guy produced a sidearm and shot two cops in under a second, before they could return fire, even though they already had their firearms out.


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    #136
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,164 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Potential-Monke wrote: »
    Here's why the softly softly approach is not usually used. They followed this lad for 10 minutes after he was identified by 2 separate calls for shooting in the area. They tried the softly softly approach and 2 of the cops ended up in hospital as he just turned around and shot at them. He's still alive too by the way.

    https://leoaffairs.com/bodycam-footage-released-of-two-chicago-police-officers-shot-man-held-on-10-million-bail/
    Manic Moran wrote: »
    It also shows the problem of reaction time which we've been discussing from the 13-year-old thread. The guy produced a sidearm and shot two cops in under a second, before they could return fire, even though they already had their firearms out.

    So what do you want other police to take from this example exactly?
    Either they shoot first or they dont.

    Anyway, regarding shooting at a driver to prevent him from running you down, that doesnt seem very logical.


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    #137
    conorhal
    Registered Users Posts: 6,998 ✭✭✭conorhal


    Overheal wrote: »
    I would have fled too. It would have looked like I was being executed. This police action is far too ambiguous to hold as legitimate




    To whom should we send your Darwin Award in such a scenario?


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    #138
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 83,443 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    conorhal wrote: »
    To whom should we send your Darwin Award in such a scenario?

    Send it to the other recipient who sits there and gets executed when a cartel, three percenters or MS-13 truck peels around a corner.

    Reminds me of those hanging deaths police ruled as suicides. Still not yet convinced they couldn’t have done it themselves.


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    #139
    Potential-Monke
    Registered Users Posts: 14,093 ✭✭✭✭Potential-Monke


    GreeBo wrote: »
    So what do you want other police to take from this example exactly?
    Either they shoot first or they dont.

    Anyway, regarding shooting at a driver to prevent him from running you down, that doesnt seem very logical.

    The police have nothing to take from this, it's just another day for them. I posted it to show how quickly the softly softly approach can turn from nothing to officers being shot. That's the only reason. Most normal people don't want the cops getting shot, but from a few threads on here we can see that some posters would prefer if the cops were shot first.


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    #140
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,164 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Potential-Monke wrote: »
    The police have nothing to take from this, it's just another day for them. I posted it to show how quickly the softly softly approach can turn from nothing to officers being shot. That's the only reason. Most normal people don't want the cops getting shot, but from a few threads on here we can see that some posters would prefer if the cops were shot first.

    So what you want is for the cops to shoot first, in case something like your video happens?


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    #141
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users Posts: 11,789 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    GreeBo wrote: »
    So what you want is for the cops to shoot first, in case something like your video happens?

    Unfortunately we don't live in a perfect world where everything goes to plan. Being a cop means that you could be shot doing your job, and it also means that you might have to take a life to do your job. It can also leave the cop in a situation where mistakes are made and a life is taken in error. It's not a nice situation to be in.

    Maybe the cops could be following with their guns aimed at the suspect and not down by their sides. That would give the suspect less time to shoot them.

    There's no easy answer. Guns up pointed at the suspect means that any sudden movement by the suspect could mean that he gets shot. It could be an innocent move by the suspect but if a cop thinks he's going to get shot, he has to react instantly, be that reaction right or wrong. Only hindsight can tell us if the cop did the right thing.

    There is a simple solution that can be followed when dealing with the cops. Just obey the law and do what the fcuk they tell you to do. If they tell you to stop, just stop. If they tell you don't move, don't move. It's really that simple. Follow their instructions and you are very very very unlikely to end up 6 feet under.

    But back to the Andrew Brown shooting. Video footage shows him driving at the cops. I think there's two possibilities why he did it. Either he didn't want to be arrested or (as someone here suggested) he thought that it was a cartel, three percenters or MS-13 coming to execute him. Either way, he drove at the cops. Video footage shows the car hitting one of the cops and other cops having to take evasive action. In such circumstances, I think the shooting was justified.


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