Female Police officer stabbed to death in France

If people are trying to find a way to prevent future attacks, then it is important to try and figure out the cause in the first place.
Just saying religion, is lazy and useless. Clearly there are many more factors.
Now, Irish people may not like to admit that we have a long history with terrorism in this country, but we do.
There are many similarities between young men who are radicalized and dragged into terrorism. No matter what the ideology is.

Of course, some posters just use excuses and fear to keep all foreigners out of Ireland, and every terrible event that happens is just used by those persons in their bid to keep Ireland just for the Irish.

WrenBoy

bubblypop wrote: »

Of course, some posters just use excuses and fear to keep all foreigners out of Ireland, and every terrible event that happens is just used by those persons in their bid to keep Ireland just for the Irish.

hyperbole.

I know what your trying to say,,,, but it just smacks of this idea that Irish people have no right to protect their identity and culture and voice opposition to what they deem to be harmful policies. For whom is Ireland for if not the Irish ??


"We declare the right of the people of Ireland to the ownership of Ireland, and to the unfettered control of Irish destinies, to be sovereign and indefeasible."

DerekC16

WrenBoy wrote: »

"We declare the right of the people of Ireland to the ownership of Ireland, and to the unfettered control of Irish destinies, to be sovereign and indefeasible."

Noooo you cant say that, fascist!

Timberrrrrrrr

WrenBoy wrote: »

hyperbole.

I know what your trying to say,,,, but it just smacks of this idea that Irish people have no right to protect their identity and culture and voice opposition to what they deem to be harmful policies. For whom is Ireland for if not the Irish ??


"We declare the right of the people of Ireland to the ownership of Ireland, and to the unfettered control of Irish destinies, to be sovereign and indefeasible."

Ireland, one of the most Nomadic people in the world, immigrants (not always legal) in almost every country in the world, the land of a thousand welcomes....but only if you'rethe right colour or religion :rolleyes:

WrenBoy

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Ireland, one of the most Nomadic people in the world, immigrants (not always legal) in almost every country in the world, the land of a thousand welcomes....but only if you'rethe right colour or religion :rolleyes:

Who is Ireland for so Tim, anyone in the world who wants it ?
Tourism slogans or well functioning society hmmm ?? :rolleyes:

People are more than welcome to come to Ireland, always have been, but not if its to the detriment to Irish people.

Timberrrrrrrr

WrenBoy wrote: »

Who is Ireland for so Tim, anyone in the world who wants it ?
Tourism slogans or well functioning society hmmm ?? :rolleyes:

People are more than welcome to come to Ireland, always have been, but not if its to the detriment to Irish people.

Not according to some posters here, they want to near enough ban a billion people.because of their religion.

Imagine if the UK had turned around back.in the 80"s and banned Irish people just because some.Irish people were terrorists.

Danzy

WrenBoy wrote: »

Who is Ireland for so Tim, anyone in the world who wants it ?
Tourism slogans or well functioning society hmmm ?? :rolleyes:

People are more than welcome to come to Ireland, always have been, but not if its to the detriment to Irish people.

Who ever meets the needs of global business and capital. Just label it solidarity.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

WrenBoy wrote: »

Who is Ireland for so Tim, anyone in the world who wants it ?
Tourism slogans or well functioning society hmmm ?? :rolleyes:

People are more than welcome to come to Ireland, always have been, but not if its to the detriment to Irish people.

Tell that to Biko - he wanted to ban people entire nationalities he while back.

Ultimately, the problem is: you either ban everyone or you accept that there's going to be killings. The reason people haven't been coming up with solutions is because there IS no solution. Just options.

WrenBoy wrote: »

hyperbole.

I know what your trying to say,,,, but it just smacks of this idea that Irish people have no right to protect their identity and culture and voice opposition to what they deem to be harmful policies. For whom is Ireland for if not the Irish ??


"We declare the right of the people of Ireland to the ownership of Ireland, and to the unfettered control of Irish destinies, to be sovereign and indefeasible."

Really? WHo's "we"? Did they actally ask the people of Ireland?

Experience_day

WrenBoy wrote: »

Who is Ireland for so Tim, anyone in the world who wants it ?
Tourism slogans or well functioning society hmmm ?? :rolleyes:

People are more than welcome to come to Ireland, always have been, but not if its to the detriment to Irish people.

Ireland is for everyone in the EU. It's part of the globalised world now. Better get used to it. On plus side if you're a home owner prices will go up.

Especially if this climate change stuff is true, can see Ireland becoming quite the attraction.

WrenBoy

Experience_day wrote: »

Ireland is for everyone in the EU. It's part of the globalised world now. Better get used to it. On plus side if you're a home owner prices will go up.

Especially if this climate change stuff is true, can see Ireland becoming quite the attraction.

There are more important things than short term money though.

Experience_day

WrenBoy wrote: »

There are more important things than short term money though.

I don't disagree with you. And I think it's a short term viewpoint that will eventually destroy "diversity" as we know it today. English is spoken more and more everywhere for example.....

But it's not going away. We have taken the 30 pieces of silver/euro and will enjoy relatively more comfort at the expense of deciding our own future.

TomTomTim

Experience_day wrote: »

Ireland is for everyone in the EU. It's part of the globalised world now. Better get used to it. On plus side if you're a home owner prices will go up.

Especially if this climate change stuff is true, can see Ireland becoming quite the attraction.

I find stuff like this very insulting. The framing is even somewhat undemocratic, as it's always framed in a way which implies that there's no coming back from it. If the Irish get sick of being a part of the globalized world and all that comes with that, then they should have the democratic right to reverse it. I'm not saying that there's the will, but if there is, it should be followed.

Experience_day

TomTomTim wrote: »

I find stuff like this very insulting. The framing is even somewhat undemocratic, as it's always framed in a way which implies that there's no coming back from it. If the Irish get sick of being a part of the globalized world and all that comes with that, then they should have the democratic right to reverse it. I'm not saying that there's the will, but if there is, it should be followed.

Realistically you can't. The definition of what it means to be Irish is already being challenged robustly. It is becoming far more nebulous as time goes by. In the future how are you going to define "Irish"?

And the ones who are not "Irish" what do you do with them? Can't make them stateless. I'm afraid it's a one way passage, hence it's myopic to ignore the state of the UK and the larger countries and blindly follow their lead.

But it is happening and will continue to happen.

d2x2

punisher5112 wrote: »

Unfortunately they want to let these all in here too...

Thankfully we don't have any homicides in Ireland!

d2x2

Real Donald Trump wrote: »

Female Police officer stabbed to death in France. The attacker shouted Allahu Akbar before carrying out the attack.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-56862436

If only he'd shouted Make America Great Again, it seems to be the only acceptable sort of mass murder / ethnical cleansing.

WrenBoy

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Tell that to Biko - he wanted to ban people entire nationalities he while back.

I cant know Biko's mind but I'm sure s/he wouldn't be against a stronger immigration system that meets our immigratk

Ultimately, the problem is: you either ban everyone or you accept that there's going to be killings. The reason people haven't been coming up with solutions is because there IS no solution. Just options.

Really? WHo's "we"? Did they actally ask the people of Ireland?

I cant know Biko's mind but I'm sure s/he wouldn't be against a stronger immigration system aimed at preserving Irelands cultural and societal health whilst also meeting our economic needs without overloading our generous social assistance systems.

I wont accept killings as a normal part of life here, no sorry. I'll always be against it and be in favour of policies that seek to lessen/ eliminate it. Imo thats a lazy nihilistic outlook.

Im not really going to bother with this one, but don't let me stop you from arguing against the Irish peoples desire to be an independent country. :rolleyes:

Marco23d

d2x2 wrote: »

If only he'd shouted Make America Great Again, it seems to be the only acceptable sort of mass murder / ethnical cleansing.

Far less ethnic cleansing and mass murder under the trump administration than the previous ones, at least around the world.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

WrenBoy wrote: »

I cant know Biko's mind but I'm sure s/he wouldn't be against a stronger immigration system aimed at preserving Irelands cultural and societal health whilst also meeting our economic needs without overloading our generous social assistance systems.

I wont accept killings as a normal part of life here, no sorry. I'll always be against it and be in favour of policies that seek to lessen/ eliminate it. Imo thats a lazy nihilistic outlook.

Im not really going to bother with this one, but don't let me stop you from arguing against the Irish peoples desire to be an independent country. :rolleyes:

I meant accept that there's no 100% way to stop it from happening.

And I'll for Irish people's anything as long as they're consulted first.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Marco23d wrote: »

Far less ethnic cleansing and mass murder under the trump administration than the previous ones, at least around the world.

Domenstic or foreign?!

In any case, the US presidency is not really a high standard to set regardless of who holds the office.

jmreire

Marco23d wrote: »

This is what the media would have you believe but it's not true it's down to the west being seen to be colonising and oppressing Muslim nations for their own personal gain, it's a fight against modern day colonialism in their eyes and the terror attacks are meant to draw attention to activities in the middle east by Western countries like the US and the UK and make the civilian population of those countries put pressure on the governments to cease or minimise their activities in those countries

Without the terror attacks there would be no attention or pressure on governments on their behaviour in the middle east.

Trust me I believed for a long time this all stemmed from people getting brainwashed by the Quran but I was foolish and uneducated on Sociological and psychological understandings of world conflicts, it's never as simple as it's made out to be in the media and is often beneficial for the general population not to know the real reasons behind these attacks.

Marco, I've lived in the middle east, and for the vast majority of people living there, the Quran is everything. 24/7 year in year out, they do everything according to the Book. Thankfully, the majority of them want nothing to do with radical Islam. But like everything else, its the small minority who cause the most trouble.And of course this mindset will be used and especially by people who want to profit from the situation. People like the ones who preach about the attacks on Islam by the west, and show videos of demonstrations etc. but with Arabic subtitles, or translations to a Muslim audience who do not speak or understand Englisn,and Muslims are taught that what is actually a yellow vest protest in France, is actually an attack on Islam.So its easy to get people all fired up with Jihad and avenging the percieved wrongs. And this is where the Quran promotes death and destruction. If those passages were not in the Quran, then they could not be used to take advantage of people by inciting them to violence. .

Timberrrrrrrr

jmreire wrote: »

Marco, I've lived in the middle east, and for the vast majority of people living there, the Quran is everything. 24/7 year in year out, they do everything according to the Book. Thankfully, the majority of them want nothing to do with radical Islam. But like everything else, its the small minority who cause the most trouble.And of course this mindset will be used and especially by people who want to profit from the situation. People like the ones who preach about the attacks on Islam by the west, and show videos of demonstrations etc. but with Arabic subtitles, or translations to a Muslim audience who do not speak or understand Englisn,and Muslims are taught that what is actually a yellow vest protest in France, is actually an attack on Islam.So its easy to get people all fired up with Jihad and avenging the percieved wrongs. And this is where the Quran promotes death and destruction. If those passages were not in the Quran, then they could not be used to take advantage of people by inciting them to violence. .

So what do you suggest? Should those passages be removed? Would you be OK if Muslims/Hindu/Buddhist were to insist on the removal of certain parts of the bible?

jmreire

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

So what do you suggest? Should those passages be removed? Would you be OK if Muslims/Hindu/Buddhist were to insist on the removal of certain parts of the bible?

No problem.. in fact they have allready been written out of the Bible. Most of these "kill" passages ...stone the adulters, chop of the hand /foot of the thieves etc. came from the Bible originally, the Old Testament to be exact ( you do know that Islam is an Abrahamic Religion? Same for the Jews.) The Muslims uprated it a bit, as in kill those who forsake Islam, throw homosexuals from a height, plus a few more bits and pieces all in the same vein.
Then Jesus came and changed everything. It was the Christian reformation, or the New Testament, if you prefer. It is what Christians follow and believe in to the present day.
I think that the world would be a far better place if all exhortations to kill or injure etc were written out of the Quran, or for that matter, from any Religious or Constitutional text or dogma they may be in.

DeadHand

Nothing can be written out of the Quran as it is taken by Muslims to be the literal word of God.

Islam is impervious to reform, this is one of the reasons it is so backward and dangerous as an ideology.

It will not adapt to the host society in the way Christianity has, rather it will violently strive to force the host society to adapt to it.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

jmreire wrote: »

Marco, I've lived in the middle east, and for the vast majority of people living there, the Quran is everything. 24/7 year in year out, they do everything according to the Book. Thankfully, the majority of them want nothing to do with radical Islam. But like everything else, its the small minority who cause the most trouble.And of course this mindset will be used and especially by people who want to profit from the situation. People like the ones who preach about the attacks on Islam by the west, and show videos of demonstrations etc. but with Arabic subtitles, or translations to a Muslim audience who do not speak or understand Englisn,and Muslims are taught that what is actually a yellow vest protest in France, is actually an attack on Islam.So its easy to get people all fired up with Jihad and avenging the percieved wrongs. And this is where the Quran promotes death and destruction. If those passages were not in the Quran, then they could not be used to take advantage of people by inciting them to violence. .

Co-relleation is not causation, so that last line is voided.

But you still haven't answered: how are you going to get Muslims to accept Christians ordering them to alter a sacred holy book, and who are you going to get to do it (bearing in mind 1 - you'll be asked him to desecrate a revered holy relic, and to commit a grave sin; and 2 - he''ll immediately have a fatwa for his death placed in him)

Don't know how you could have lived in the Middle East and NOT know this.

Timberrrrrrrr

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Co-relleation is not causation, so that last line is voided.

But you still haven't answered: how are you going to get Muslims to accept Christians ordering them to alter a sacred holy book, and who are you going to get to do it (bearing in mind 1 - you'll be asked him to desecrate a revered holy relic, and to commit a grave sin; and 2 - he''ll immediately have a fatwa for his death placed in him)

Don't know how you could have lived in the Middle East and NOT know this.

And then what happens to all of the "old" books? Do they get destroyed? What if someone refuses to hand theirs over? There would be maybe a billion copies of the book worldwide, how do they plan to get them all and what's to stop people from reading from it on sites where these people get radicalised?

Obviously hasn't thought this through, it's an impossible task to say the least.

jmreire

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Co-relleation is not causation, so that last line is voided.

But you still haven't answered: how are you going to get Muslims to accept Christians ordering them to alter a sacred holy book, and who are you going to get to do it (bearing in mind 1 - you'll be asked him to desecrate a revered holy relic, and to commit a grave sin; and 2 - he''ll immediately have a fatwa for his death placed in him)

Don't know how you could have lived in the Middle East and NOT know this.

What I actually said, in the context of stopping or otherwise preventing islamic radical attack.

"I think that the world would be a far better place if all exhortations to kill or injure etc were written out of the Quran, or for that matter, from any Religious or Constitutional text or dogma they may be in."

That's my personal opinion as some one who has lived in the middle east, as a way to eliminate Islamic Terrorism. Its not a direct instruction or order to Islam to modify the Quran. And I'm fully aware that its not going to happen, as it's Gods Word, and that cannot be changed only by God himself. But hypothetically speaking, if there was to be changes made, it would not be coming from anyone other than the highest Islamic Quranic Authorities, and not Christians or any one else. And I also mentioned removed from any other religious or Constitutional text or dogma. And so, radical Islamic attacks will continue. Unless you or some one else has a better idea?

Danzy

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Co-relleation is not causation, so that last line is voided.

But you still haven't answered: how are you going to get Muslims to accept Christians ordering them to alter a sacred holy book, and who are you going to get to do it (bearing in mind 1 - you'll be asked him to desecrate a revered holy relic, and to commit a grave sin; and 2 - he''ll immediately have a fatwa for his death placed in him)

Don't know how you could have lived in the Middle East and NOT know this.

I think he knows it is impossible, it is an ideal world situation but the violent original version, could be got online, could be sent over from other countries.

The texts of the Sunnah and hadith, the other foundational texts of Islam would go as well, ideally.

They are arguably more of an inspiration for savagery than the Koran, at least as violent.

Mohamed lived a very violent life and seemed to enjoy inflicting pain on people, even his own.

All recorded as examples of the most perfect man.

If Mosques and their Imams are publicly preaching about how such a group are to be killed, disseminating material promoting killing, etc.

Then close them down and jail the preacher.

That application of the law is enough, the impact of that in Society would see the Army on the streets across much of Europe, as many of the most prominent Clerics and many major Mosques closed up.

Could you imagine Michael Martin or Varadkar calling in Halawa from Clonskeagh and asking him to have nothing to do with his Shura council leader because of his genocidal views.

He won't and he would be laughed at if he did.

Enforce legislation without fear or favour against those who preach for murder, disseminate recruitment videos etc.

Even leave it more lax for the Islamic community than others.

That would be a big step but society is fearful of the backlash it would cause.

jmreire

Danzy wrote: »

I think he knows it is impossible, it is an ideal world situation but the violent original version, could be got online, could be sent over from other countries.

The texts of the Sunnah and hadith, the other foundational texts of Islam would go as well, ideally.

They are arguably more of an inspiration for savagery than the Koran, at least as violent.

Mohamed lived a very violent life and seemed to enjoy inflicting pain on people, even his own.

All recorded as examples of the most perfect man.

If Mosques and their Imams are publicly preaching about how such a group are to be killed, disseminating material promoting killing, etc.

Then close them down and jail the preacher.

That application of the law is enough, the impact of that in Society would see the Army on the streets across much of Europe, as many of the most prominent Clerics and many major Mosques closed up.

Could you imagine Michael Martin or Varadkar calling in Halawa from Clonskeagh and asking him to have nothing to do with his Shura council leader because of his genocidal views.

He won't and he would be laughed at if he did.

Enforce legislation without fear or favour against those who preach for murder, disseminate recruitment videos etc.

Even leave it more lax for the Islamic community than others.

That would be a big step but society is fearful of the backlash it would cause.

When it comes to daesh, Taliban etc, the majority of Muslims that I know, and have worked with are completely against the version of Islam propagated by isis etc. Yet, despite their objections, isis have used passages in the Quran to justify their actions, and even the highest Islamic authorities are not able to contradict them.
Its really strange because maybe as much as 95% Muslims ( or more ) dont engage in terrorist attacks, and in fact, are the major victims of these attacks.What is happening in Europe with terrorist attacks pales into insignificience compared to what is happening within Islamic Countrys themselves. I know thats its impossible, but if a vote was allowed in the morning, to amend or change the Quran...would the majority vote to remove these death verses? Interesting if not even remotely possible though. And yet, they vote by not engaging in terrorism.
While the actual wording cannot be changed, there are many discussions ongoing about their translation, and the actual circumstance they are valid in, and justification for their use. So in that sense, some movement is possible.
For many years now, in Saudi Afrabia, its hard to know who is really in charge...the Ibn Saud Family, or the Wahabbi's... Yet Mohammed bin Salman, has managed to clip their wings, an make changes that were thought to be impossible before. So maybe change is possible, but it will have to come from within Islam itself.

Marco23d

Plenty of uneducated idiots on this thread blaming terror attacks on the Quran rather than the devastation of many Muslim countries in the middle east and Africa by the west.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

jmreire wrote: »

What I actually said, in the context of stopping or otherwise preventing islamic radical attack.

"I think that the world would be a far better place if all exhortations to kill or injure etc were written out of the Quran, or for that matter, from any Religious or Constitutional text or dogma they may be in."

That's my personal opinion as some one who has lived in the middle east, as a way to eliminate Islamic Terrorism. Its not a direct instruction or order to Islam to modify the Quran. And I'm fully aware that its not going to happen, as it's Gods Word, and that cannot be changed only by God himself. But hypothetically speaking, if there was to be changes made, it would not be coming from anyone other than the highest Islamic Quranic Authorities, and not Christians or any one else. And I also mentioned removed from any other religious or Constitutional text or dogma. And so, radical Islamic attacks will continue. Unless you or some one else has a better idea?

Clutching at straws here. You don't alter something revered and ingrained in soeone's cultrual history and expect them to wake up the next monring with a whole new mindset.

Especially when their more recent history - through which a lot of them will hve lived - will be when they see the enery as the aggressor and themselves as the victim. You don't bomb someone's home land and steal there resources only to blame their fightback on interpretations of a book.

As I said before, trying to washover history is a tactic from the Woke playbook - and you don't come across as someone who parallels woke bull****.