Female Police officer stabbed to death in France

Loverlyhorse

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

And so on and so on, don't pretend that the Bible is all sweetness and light ffs it wasn't so long ago that Christians went on crusades and killed in the name of religion.

100%. From your quotes, its easy to see how Christians stoned to death homosexuals and adulterers based on their religion.

All we're doing is saying its the same for Islam. The Quran has some awful passages which promote violence to unbelievers. However people are denying this - are you?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

biko wrote: »

I tried to explain that in Islam, killing unbelievers is not a strange concept at all. It is in their book and you may even have heard about it before.
Or just ask your Muslim friends.

The problem is that tried to do this when it was completely irrelevant and pointless and by trying to use the religion as a whole to justfy the acts of one person, proved my point that you are trying to judge the whole of Islam by the acts of one person.

And that is just pure ignorance.

Case closed.

biko

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

And so on and so on, don't pretend that the Bible is all sweetness and light ffs it wasn't so long ago that Christians went on crusades and killed in the name of religion.

I didn't say it all kittens and flowers. It's a pretty gruesome book with lots of killings, but paedophilia is not condoned in the book.
The book is against gays but we in the Western world have moved past that, except some fringe elements.

Killing unbelievers is mentioned in the Quran and used as an excuse to do killings in our time.

If they themselves say it is so, why is it so difficult for you to acknowledge it?

Timberrrrrrrr

biko wrote: »

I tried to explain that in Islam, killing unbelievers is not a strange concept at all. It is in their book and you may even have heard about it before.
Or just ask your Muslim friends.

As does the bible

But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slaughter them before me.’”

And they entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and with all their soul, but that whoever would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, should be put to death, whether young or old, man or woman.

Loverlyhorse

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

By quoting the Quran and the Bible, are you implying that every single person who subscibes to the Islam/Chrsitianity can be judged by said writings? 1.8 million people are autumatically pedoohiles because they are muslim?

If not, what's the point of this?

The point is to show the direct link between the religion texts and the actions of people who take them seriously. Thankfully many moderates ignore lots of their religious texts, however when they don't there's trouble (be it to homosexuals, non believers etc).

So to summarise: not all Muslims (obviously!) are like this murderer. Most are not. But he was inspired by a pretty accurate reading of the texts. The religious texts are a problem we need to grapple with.

Timberrrrrrrr

Loverlyhorse wrote: »

100%. From your quotes, its easy to see how Christians stoned to death homosexuals and adulterers based on their religion.

All we're doing is saying its the same for Islam. The Quran has some awful passages which promote violence to unbelievers. However people are denying this - are you?

No, nowhere have I denied that there are terrible things written in it, my point is that people seem.to "gloss over" the same sort of passages in the bible.

biko

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

As does the bible

Right, when did this last happen in Europe on a scale like we see Islamist attacks?

I know it's tempting to blame other things but it's simply not comparable.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Loverlyhorse wrote: »

The point is to show the direct link between the religion texts and the actions of people who take them seriously. Thankfully many moderates ignore lots of their religious texts, however when they don't there's trouble (be it to homosexuals, non believers etc).

No one's denying this.

So to summarise: not all Muslims (obviously!) are like this murderer. Most are not. But he was inspired by a pretty accurate reading of the texts. The religious texts are a problem we need to grapple with.

People are denying this.

Religious texts are not going to change - they are historical documents - people's using them as excuses for violence and oppression needs to change. ANd this is true of ALL religions. But everyone except the fundamnetalists already knows this, or is grapsing at straws and trying to portray the entire modern day following by it.

Feisar

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

And so on and so on, don't pretend that the Bible is all sweetness and light ffs it wasn't so long ago that Christians went on crusades and killed in the name of religion.

Hard to beat a bit of Old Testament fire and brimstone!

jmreire

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Bible



Bible



Bible



And so on and so on, don't pretend that the Bible is all sweetness and light ffs it wasn't so long ago that Christians went on crusades and killed in the name of religion.

Islam, Christianity, and the Jews all take the tenets of their religion from the old testament.. Adam and Eve,Moses, Abraham, Isaac and David etc. 2000 years ago, Jesus was born, and the reformation began. He brought the new and everlasting covenent between God and Man, which Christians follow to this day.The Jews did not change though,and remain true to the old testament. 1'400 years ago Mohammad ( and strange enough he was aided by a Christian Priest ) who believed that people had strayed from the true path, began a movement to restore religion to be more in line with the Old Testament, with all its death to non-believers , throwing homosexuals off roofs of buildings, and stoning for the "sin" of adultry. And thats the main difference between Christianity and Islam to the present day....Christianity was reformed, but Islam is still the same as it was in Mohammads day.

_Kaiser_

Tchaikovsky wrote: »

Why would they have to condemn it?

Let's see..

- to distance themselves from extremists doing things in the name of the religion they share?

- to express solidarity and support for the victims?

- to remind their fellow believers that these acts are not acceptable, and nor is using their faith as justification?

There's 3 reasons just off the top of my head.

jmayo

biko wrote: »

France have been battling this dangerous and hateful ideology for many years now.
The victims count in their hundreds in France alone.

Does someone have an idea on how to avoid these attacks?

Roll on Le Pen.

bubblypop wrote: »

I agree completely that police need to understand about radicalised fanatics, any type of radicalized fanatics. And they do.
I see many posters jumping on threads like this, first to post ridiculous stuff like
' Religion of peace '
'muslims'
Etc etc.

It's not that simple. The fact that someone is of the Islam faith is not the reason they commit any atrocities. There are far more reasons, far more complex that just their religion.

So no, I don't care less what religion a murderer is.

No matter how you try and twist this, no matter how many times you divert the thread off topic with discussions about IRS/PIRA, no matter how many times you and your fellow apologists drag in the right wingers in US, incels (what ever the fook they are), no matter how many times you keep telling us "not all muslims", you cannot change the fact that these attacks across Europe have one thing in common, the assailants are adherents of islam.

Even a kid watching cop shows or detective shows on TV knows that you always look for a common thread, a trend when studying crimes and patterns of crimes.
And the one most common link is islam.

Yes there are fascist fruit loops that appear every now and again and kill people because of their right wing believes.
Sometime these degenerates engage in mass slaughters.
Thankfully they are few and far between.

But the vast vast majority of these assailants are muslims.

Not catholics, not christians, not jews, not hindus, not buddists, not aethists.

Why is that fact so hard for some people to admit?

And no I will not state right winger, because frankly anyone that is devout adherent of islam is as right wing as any nazi.

Overheal

Not the least bit surprised those arguing that Islam is the serious problem that we need to prosecute here seem to be very happy to also label anyone else who disagrees as an apologist. There’s a label for those disproportionately fearful of Islam too. They would have the police barking up Bible verses rather than paying attention to who is radicalizing them. Doubt anyone thinks some regular ass person who is Muslim just read the Koran differently one day and planned to knife up an officer without a much more prevailing radical influence?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

jmayo wrote: »

Roll on Le Pen.



No matter how you try and twist this, no matter how many times you divert the thread off topic with discussions about IRS/PIRA, no matter how many times you and your fellow apologists drag in the right wingers in US, incels (what ever the fook they are), no matter how many times you keep telling us "not all muslims", you cannot change the fact that these attacks across Europe have one thing in common, the assailants are adherents of islam.

Even a kid watching cop shows or detective shows on TV knows that you always look for a common thread, a trend when studying crimes and patterns of crimes.
And the one most common link is islam.

Yes there are fascist fruit loops that appear every now and again and kill people because of their right wing believes.
Sometime these degenerates engage in mass slaughters.
Thankfully they are few and far between.

But the vast vast majority of these assailants are muslims.

Not catholics, not christians, not jews, not hindus, not buddists, not aethists.

Why is that fact so hard for some people to admit?

And no I will not state right winger, because frankly anyone that is devout adherent of islam is as right wing as any nazi.

Not if you count the US.

And the most prolific mass murderer in Europe was not muslim.

Feisar

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Let's see..

- to distance themselves from extremists doing things in the name of the religion they share?

- to express solidarity and support for the victims?

- to remind their fellow believers that these acts are not acceptable, and nor is using their faith as justification?

There's 3 reasons just off the top of my head.

IMHO it's silly to expect people with nothing to do with something to have to condemn an act.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Let's see..

- to distance themselves from extremists doing things in the name of the religion they share?

- to express solidarity and support for the victims?

- to remind their fellow believers that these acts are not acceptable, and nor is using their faith as justification?

There's 3 reasons just off the top of my head.

The only reason people feel that they need to distance themsevles is becuase the same people keep trying to make connections in the first place.

Cordell

Overheal wrote: »

Not the least bit surprised those arguing that Islam is the serious problem that we need to prosecute here seem to be very happy to also label anyone else who disagrees as an apologist. There’s a label for those disproportionately fearful of Islam too. They would have the police barking up Bible verses rather than paying attention to who is radicalizing them. Doubt anyone thinks some regular ass person who is Muslim just read the Koran differently one day and planned to knife up an officer without a much more prevailing radical influence?

It's not just the book, it's the whole ideology around it and the fact it looks to control everything in your life from what you eat and wear to the way finances and businesses can be conducted.
And what makes it worse is the attitude of the religious leaders, if you stray from their path, if you do anything different that the prophet did, they will not say that you are sinning, they will say that you are not a true believer. Which is a much stronger wording, as god is merciful and will forgive a sinner, but never a heretic.

MEGA BRO WOLF 5000

biko wrote: »

France have been battling this dangerous and hateful ideology for many years now.
The victims count in their hundreds in France alone.

Does someone have an idea on how to avoid these attacks?

Stop importing the third world.

Overheal

Cordell wrote: »

It's not just the book, it's the whole ideology around it and the fact it looks to control everything in your life from what you eat and wear to the way finances and businesses can be conducted.
And what makes it worse is the attitude of the religious leaders, if you stray from their path, if you do anything different that the prophet did, they will not say that you are sinning, they will say that you are not a true believer. Which is a much stronger wording, as god is merciful and will forgive a sinner, but never a heretic.

So here’s my anti-gaslighting question to this: do we have any proof that the suspect adhered to all the above?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Cordell wrote: »

It's not just the book, it's the whole ideology around it and the fact it looks to control everything in your life from what you eat and wear to the way finances and businesses can be conducted.
And what makes it worse is the attitude of the religious leaders, if you stray from their path, if you do anything different that the prophet did, they will not say that you are sinning, they will say that you are not a true believer. Which is a much stronger wording, as god is merciful and will forgive a sinner, but never a heretic.

Could be said of the Bible and Christianity.

Cordell

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Could be said of the Bible and Christianity.

Sure, same can be said about all Abrahamic religions. But only one of them constantly churns out terrorists, so maybe there is something particularly wrong with it, maybe it's a lot more radical than the others.

Overheal

Cordell wrote: »

Sure, same can be said about all Abrahamic religions. But only one of them constantly churns out terrorists, so maybe there is something particularly wrong with it, maybe it's a lot more radical than the others.

Considering these religions have each been around for well over a thousand years,

And as we’ve had argued here, the Koran is an old book without any sort of “New Testament” etc. in the past 1,370 years,

And given that the “churning out of Terrorists” has not been a perennial problem with Islam for 1,370 years,

And as noted by others, such a pattern of attacks has only occurred in France over the past several years, not the last millennia or century etc.

Then I am inclined to think that there may be so significantly more to this problem than boilerplating it down to being Prophet Mohammad’s fault. Don’t you agree?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Cordell wrote: »

Sure, same can be said about all Abrahamic religions. But only one of them constantly churns out terrorists, so maybe there is something particularly wrong with it, maybe it's a lot more radical than the others.

Your point was that books are directly responsible for the actions of it's followers. Now it seems that's not the case?

biko

Same old arguments with the same old users. It's getting tedious.
At this point, can any of you even remember the name of the victim?

Timberrrrrrrr

jmayo wrote: »

Roll on Le Pen.



No matter how you try and twist this, no matter how many times you divert the thread off topic with discussions about IRS/PIRA, no matter how many times you and your fellow apologists drag in the right wingers in US, incels (what ever the fook they are), no matter how many times you keep telling us "not all muslims", you cannot change the fact that these attacks across Europe have one thing in common, the assailants are adherents of islam.

Even a kid watching cop shows or detective shows on TV knows that you always look for a common thread, a trend when studying crimes and patterns of crimes.
And the one most common link is islam.

Yes there are fascist fruit loops that appear every now and again and kill people because of their right wing believes.
Sometime these degenerates engage in mass slaughters.
Thankfully they are few and far between.

But the vast vast majority of these assailants are muslims.

Not catholics, not christians, not jews, not hindus, not buddists, not aethists.

Why is that fact so hard for some people to admit?

And no I will not state right winger, because frankly anyone that is devout adherent of islam is as right wing as any nazi.

So by your standards we can blame all Christians for mass shootings in Amerca? I mean it's a fact that the majority of school shootings over the decades have been done by young white Christian males therefore all white Christian males are to blame for these, have you ever come out and apologised for these sickening acts? If not then that must mean you support them.

Overheal

biko wrote: »

Same old arguments with the same old users. It's getting tedious.
At this point, can any of you even remember the name of the victim?

Yes I do.

Is this your inability to respond to the points above?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

biko wrote: »

Same old arguments with the same old users. It's getting tedious.
At this point, can any of you even remember the name of the victim?

Biko, you made thriteen posts in this thread with the sole intention of attacking Islam, and now you're going to try and convince us - in post fourteen - that your primary interest in this is the victim...?

You're not fooling anyone.

Cordell

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Your point was that books are directly responsible for the actions of it's followers. Now it seems that's not the case?

Read my post carefully, I never said that. What I said is that this religion is inherently radical, so it makes it way more easier to convince their adepts to take that extra step.

jmayo

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Not if you count the US.

And the most prolific mass murderer in Europe was not muslim.

The US is a sh**show.
But of course it suits some people to drag in one of the most dysfunctional countries now in the so called Western world.

Oh and yes Brevik was probably the biggest single mass murder in Europe.
And yes he was right wing.

But why not add up all the French, Belgian, UK, German, Swedish, Spanish attacks and you soon pass Brevik's numbers.
192 in Madrid train attacks.
52 London bus/train attacks.


Then since you are fond of including other states to suit your purpose why not add in all the attacks in Russia.
For instance remember Beslan 385 dead or some of the Moscow tube attacks.

Then for the hell of it lets add in those attacks in Africa: Nigeria (remember Boko Haram and the thousands they have killed at this stage) Kenya, Tanzania.

Lets add in India with 209 in Mumbai attacks.
Then there is Indonesia and the Bali attacks.

And that doesn't include the thousands killed in the muslim world itself, often because they are the wrong shade of believer or not devout enough.

But yeah the real problem in the world is all those right wingers.

Overheal

jmayo wrote: »

The US is a sh**show.
But of course it suits some people to drag in one of the most dysfunctional countries now in the so called Western world.

Oh and yes Brevik was probably the biggest single mass murder in Europe.
And yes he was right wing.

But why not add up all the French, Belgian, UK, German, Swedish, Spanish attacks and you soon pass Brevik's numbers.
192 in Madrid train attacks.
52 London bus/train attacks.


Then since you are fond of including other states to suit your purpose why not add in all the attacks in Russia.
For instance remember Beslan 385 dead or some of the Moscow tube attacks.

Then for the hell of it lets add in those attacks in Africa: Nigeria (remember Boko Haram and the thousands they have killed at this stage) Kenya, Tanzania.

Lets add in India with 209 in Mumbai attacks.
Then there is Indonesia and the Bali attacks.

And that doesn't include the thousands killed in the muslim world itself, often because they are the wrong shade of believer or not devout enough.

But yeah the real problem in the world is all those right wingers.

Yes there has been a documented increase in such attacks over the past decade or more.

Do your think the 1,370 year old religious text is the root locus or do you think something in the past decade or more is?