Did you know that Income tax is a 'temporary measure?'

Wanderer78

sebdavis wrote: »

So your source is a random link to an American website, not to an article on the topic and has nothing to do with the Eastern European cities we discussed. I think a review of your sources might be in order.

maybe you need to look into who he actually is! i dont have time to fish out your exact request, but hudson has spoken about it in the past, he posts all his work on his site

sebdavis

sebdavis wrote: »

So your source is a random link to an American website, not to an article on the topic and has nothing to do with the Eastern European cities we discussed. I think a review of your sources might be in order.

I don’t think he’s going to provide any links that satisfy you. Dismissing a general economic argument because the author isn’t in Eastern Europe makes little sense.

sebdavis

fvp4 wrote: »

I don’t think he’s going to provide any links that satisfy you. Dismissing a general economic argument because the author isn’t in Eastern Europe makes little sense.

I am not dismissing it because he is American. I am questioning it because it is an American writing about introducing flat tax into America. Not about introducing into Ireland/European country. I think we can agree the American economy is a small bit different to the Irish one

The only document I could find as well written by him was in 2010, during the recession. Maybe he has others that are relevant? seems the poster doesn't want to share.

Wanderer78

sebdavis wrote: »

I am not dismissing it because he is American. I am questioning it because it is an American writing about introducing flat tax into America. Not about introducing into Ireland/European country. I think we can agree the American economy is a small bit different to the Irish one

The only document I could find as well written by him was in 2010, during the recession. Maybe he has others that are relevant? seems the poster doesn't want to share.

hudson is a global economic advisor, keep digging, you ll get there eventually, i dont have time to serve your needs, maybe check out https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/, he writes there to

JimmyVik

fvp4 wrote: »

Don’t confuse the marginal tax with the over all tax rate. Yes the marginal is too high at too low an income. However overall tax is 30% on middle income earners and the flat rate will be around 30% with fewer tax credits.

Another way to reduce the high tax on middle earners is to tax the top earners (100k+) more.

Any overtime I do now, i end up with around half of it left in my pocket.
So I just dont bother taking any extra work anymore when the opportunity arises.
Was the same with the other half. She was asked to help out friend with a struggling local business for €12 ph.
She said she couldnt bring herself to work for what would be €6ph for her, no matter how much she would like to help out.

Wanderer78

JimmyVik wrote: »

Any overtime I do now, i end up with around half of it left in my pocket.
So I just dont bother taking any extra work anymore when the opportunity arises.
Was the same with the other half. She was asked to help out friend with a struggling local business for €12 ph.
She said she couldnt bring herself to work for what would be €6ph for her, no matter how much she would like to help out.

cash in hand, if needs be

Geuze

fvp4 wrote: »

Don’t confuse the marginal tax with the over all tax rate. Yes the marginal is too high at too low an income. However overall tax is 30% on middle income earners and the flat rate will be around 30% with fewer tax credits.

Correct.

There are loads of earners here facing nearly 50% marginal income tax rates, but paying 10%-30% effective income tax rates.

Ireland has a very progressive income tax system.

Loads of earners pay zero.
Loads of earners pay little
BUT, people face 48.5% MTR at about 36k.

Geuze

JimmyVik wrote: »

Any overtime I do now, i end up with around half of it left in my pocket.
So I just dont bother taking any extra work anymore when the opportunity arises.
Was the same with the other half. She was asked to help out friend with a struggling local business for €12 ph.
She said she couldnt bring herself to work for what would be €6ph for her, no matter how much she would like to help out.

Yes.

It should not surprise anybody that charging nearly 50% marginal income tax on people earning less than mean FT earnings will lead to perverse incentives, whereby people refuse to work.

Wizard!

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Any alternatives to running our country and servicing our debts?

3DataModem wrote: »

All taxation is theft, but it is theft in service of the social contract.

We want roads, hospitals, schools, and social welfare for the less fortunate, medicine for the sick and dying, and wheelchairs for the disabled. We want to ensure that what property we have is secure (police/military), and that we have recourse when someone does us wrong (courts), and we want to make sure that people beyond their working age can have their basic living needs met (pensions).

As a society we have agreed tacitly to maintain this "theft under duress" system because life will generally be better for all if we do so. There's horrible waste, and horrible inefficiencies (especially in democracies) but most people generally accept this system has enough fairness and enough benefit to be sustainable, and is better than chaos.

If you are interested in where Irish tax goes, take a look: https://img2.thejournal.ie/inline/1721503/original/?width=630&version=1721503

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/jan/21/facebook-posts/modern-income-tax-structure-born-1913-americans-pa/


From 1% to the rich, to 40% to middle class... That is some evolution, don't you think...?


Most rich people don't pay taxes and they say in several of their books, that governments are useless thieves, and do not try to invest to make money, since they have the easy way of collecting taxes. So, taxation is theft, caused by unorganized and incompetence people that we vote. Most of politicians would be complete failures in entrepreneurship

Geuze

sebdavis wrote: »

Child benefit? If you can’t afford to have children don’t have them. Why do you need a paid for having children?

There are sensible economic arguments for supporting child-rearing.

How it should supported, for example: cash vs. tax relief vs services, yes you can debate that.

JimmyVik

Wanderer78 wrote: »

cash in hand, if needs be

exactly.
Less scruples about cash in hand when you see 50% of you salary get taken.
Also these days i dont mind giving cash in hand either, since i know how excessive the taxation feels myself.

Mad_maxx

fvp4 wrote: »

Why are you in a thread about all income tax being theft then?

Same reason the majority of contributors are, most don't share that view here

biko

biko wrote: »

There is nothing to stop you from correcting everyone's mistakes, Paschal Donohoe.

I could but it would be a waste of my life, same as obsessing about stuff like people's religion, skin colour and sexual orientation would be. Much more amusing to watch others do that to themselves.

jimmycrackcorm

JimmyVik wrote:

Any overtime I do now, i end up with around half of it left in my pocket. So I just dont bother taking any extra work anymore when the opportunity arises. Was the same with the other half. She was asked to help out friend with a struggling local business for €12 ph. She said she couldnt bring herself to work for what would be €6ph for her, no matter how much she would like to help out.

I'm the same when it comes to our company annual bonus. When it means that 52% is taken off, I don't feel bothered about going the extra mile to achieve that. It's not worth the effort.

Beasty

All taxes are ultimately borne by individuals. Be that the likes of income tax and VAT directly or Corporation tax via shareholdings, pension funds and the like

The only question is how much do we all respectively bear. In my case it's quite a lot. In the case of some others not very much.

Wanderer78

Wizard! wrote: »

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/jan/21/facebook-posts/modern-income-tax-structure-born-1913-americans-pa/


From 1% to the rich, to 40% to middle class... That is some evolution, don't you think...?


Most rich people don't pay taxes and they say in several of their books, that governments are useless thieves, and do not try to invest to make money, since they have the easy way of collecting taxes. So, taxation is theft, caused by unorganized and incompetence people that we vote. Most of politicians would be complete failures in entrepreneurship

are you seriously trying to use america as a guide towards taxation and wealth equality, seriously?

wealthy criticising governments for being thieves, makes sense really doesnt it, when a body is trying to tax you more, and possibly prevent you from acquiring even more wealth! many wealthy elements in society actually only invest their wealth in money making money schemes, asset markets etc, which actually produces very few jobs, and accelerates wealth inequality, which ultimately comes out of your pocket in many ways, including in the taxes you pay, and other major living costs, in particularly your property needs.

yes many politicians probably would struggle in that world, but would these 'entrepreneurs' truly succeed as politicians?

Sleeper12

For what it's worth the foot bridge over the road in Fairview is only a temporary bridge. It's there close to 50 years now but never intended to be permanent

Wizard!

Wanderer78 wrote: »

are you seriously trying to use america as a guide towards taxation and wealth equality, seriously?

wealthy criticising governments for being thieves, makes sense really doesnt it, when a body is trying to tax you more, and possibly prevent you from acquiring even more wealth! many wealthy elements in society actually only invest their wealth in money making money schemes, asset markets etc, which actually produces very few jobs, and accelerates wealth inequality, which ultimately comes out of your pocket in many ways, including in the taxes you pay, and other major living costs, in particularly your property needs.

yes many politicians probably would struggle in that world, but would these 'entrepreneurs' truly succeed as politicians?

You should read carefully Plato's "City" to understand how Democracy was working in Athens and how wealthy people were involved. Then you might understand what a politician should (or not) be. Today's politicians are mostly pawns.

Wanderer78

Wizard! wrote: »

You should read carefully Plato's "City" to understand how Democracy was working in Athens and how wealthy people were involved. Then you might understand what a politician should (or not) be. Today's politicians are mostly pawns.

yes i will agree with this statement, we have allowed extremely dangerous forces and sectors to take control of our democratic, and economic processes and systems, in particular the fire sectors(finance, insurance and real estate), and its catastrophically failing, our politicians, and our political process and institutions are virtually powerless in this world

JimmyVik

How we feel about tax

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6HEH23W_bM

Glaceon

Sleeper12 wrote: »

For what it's worth the foot bridge over the road in Fairview is only a temporary bridge. It's there close to 50 years now but never intended to be permanent

I never knew that but I remember getting something through my door about 5 years ago, claiming that Dublin City Council planned to remove it and replace it with traffic lights. Sounded like a crazy idea considering how busy that road is.

Eric Cartman

JimmyVik wrote: »

How we feel about tax

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6HEH23W_bM

So many tom's in this country.

RulesOfNature

sebdavis wrote: »

People pay via taxes, give them the option of no taxes is the money going to just appear from no where?

Correct. The past 100 years or so has been a great example of intertwining taxes with every aspect of society, to the point where the average person cannot conceive of any answer as to why the government effectively takes half of your money at certain rates, other than we need to pay taxes.

Before income tax became the primary revenue income, excise and import taxes were the primary form of funding. Sales tax levied funded schools, universities, governments, public utility.

Read Modern Monetary Theory. Imaginary fiat money needs to raise taxes every year because it is inflationary by design - Your money is designed to lose value every year that way you are forced to be productive and acquire more.

Inflation at the rate of 2-3% a year is what's considered acceptable. The problem is if run laissez-faire it will organically hyperinflate. Thus any government that uses fiat needs to raise taxes every year to keep the inflation rate at acceptable levels.

At some point normal tax rates will literally be at the 80-90% rate. This sounds crazy now but remember just 2-3 peoples ago 2.9% was the income tax rate and that was during exceptional times of global crises.

KyussB

All central banks on the planet have a positive inflation target - mainly because all economists agree that deflation leads to economic stagnation. That's got nothing to do with MMT, all credible economists think that.

There are MMT economists like Warren Mosler who advocate 0% Income and Corporate Tax. MMT views on taxation can actually be very business and wealth friendly.

All economists want to maintain Full Output and Full Employment, while keeping Inflation in check - there is nothing different with MMT, there.

RulesOfNature

KyussB wrote: »

All central banks on the planet have a positive inflation target - mainly because all economists agree that deflation leads to economic stagnation. That's got nothing to do with MMT, all credible economists think that.

There are MMT economists like Warren Mosler who advocate 0% Income and Corporate Tax. MMT views on taxation can actually be very business and wealth friendly.

All economists want to maintain Full Output and Full Employment, while keeping Inflation in check - there is nothing different with MMT, there.

There are always advocates for alternative methods but objectively and practically speaking MMT is basically chartalism. It recognizes that governments have the power to issue their own fiat currency and force people to use it through taxation.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chartalism

MMT brings us news of a free lunch in which we can choose any fiscal deficit we want with no adverse consequences and zero calories! I don’t believe in free lunches, and neither should you.

In MMT the government is an overhead, whose cost we tolerate so long as it delivers value roughly commensurate with its costs. It is not the center of the economic universe - you are. Every individual, every business, everything and everyone intertwined by taxes.

Individually speaking, do you feel that the government is providing a service that your money’s worth?

Wanderer78

RulesOfNature wrote:

In MMT the government is an overhead, whose cost we tolerate so long as it delivers value roughly commensurate with its costs. It is not the center of the economic universe - you are. Every individual, every business, everything and everyone intertwined by taxes.

Libertarian by any chance? We cannot keep running our economies primarily on private sector money, I.e. Credit, 08 has clearly showed us how dangerous this is, we need a good mix of private and public sector monies doing the job, but that means running continual deficits.

No we don't get value for money, via our public services, but a credit fueled economy just keeps inflating asset prices such as property, so this is also unsustainable, this also undermines our ability to try run more efficient public services

KyussB

RulesOfNature wrote: »

There are always advocates for alternative methods but objectively and practically speaking MMT is basically chartalism. It recognizes that governments have the power to issue their own fiat currency and force people to use it through taxation.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chartalism

MMT brings us news of a free lunch in which we can choose any fiscal deficit we want with no adverse consequences and zero calories! I don’t believe in free lunches, and neither should you.

In MMT the government is an overhead, whose cost we tolerate so long as it delivers value roughly commensurate with its costs. It is not the center of the economic universe - you are. Every individual, every business, everything and everyone intertwined by taxes.

Individually speaking, do you feel that the government is providing a service that your money’s worth?

None of that is a reply to my post?

There is no 'free lunch', there are limits to spending - the limit is inflation, instead of an arbitrary deficit/debt accounting balance.

Former Former Former

JimmyVik wrote: »

exactly.
Less scruples about cash in hand when you see 50% of you salary get taken.
Also these days i dont mind giving cash in hand either, since i know how excessive the taxation feels myself.

People like you dodging your tax mean those of us who do pay our taxes have to pay more to subsidise the likes of you.

So you're moaning about having your money stolen, but at the same time you're stealing mine and see nothing wrong in this.

That about sums up this thread. Utterly stupid and bereft of any real understanding of how the world works.

JimmyVik

Former Former Former wrote: »

People like you dodging your tax mean those of us who do pay our taxes have to pay more to subsidise the likes of you.

So you're moaning about having your money stolen, but at the same time you're stealing mine and see nothing wrong in this.

That about sums up this thread. Utterly stupid and bereft of any real understanding of how the world works.

I dont dodge my tax.
I pay about €3k a month in tax, not to mention all the other stealth taxes i pay too. Thats enough for one person dont you think. I think im doing a fair bit of subsidizing myself

KyussB

KyussB wrote: »

All central banks on the planet have a positive inflation target - mainly because all economists agree that deflation leads to economic stagnation. That's got nothing to do with MMT, all credible economists think that.

There are MMT economists like Warren Mosler who advocate 0% Income and Corporate Tax. MMT views on taxation can actually be very business and wealth friendly.

All economists want to maintain Full Output and Full Employment, while keeping Inflation in check - there is nothing different with MMT, there.

Not the economists suggesting major cutbacks in recessions. They don’t.