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Ex paratroopers deny murder of Joe McCann

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    #182
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,099 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    beauf wrote: »
    "...In a fair fight, I'd win....Well, then that's not much incentive for me to fight fair then, is it?..."

    ...says both sides...


    the british state had the ability to fight fair and even win.
    instead they engaged in colusion and all else and gave the other side more recruitment tools then they could ever dream of.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #183
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,099 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    beauf wrote: »
    We don't know he was never a member.
    We do know no one has proved he was a member.
    We do know he says he was never a member.
    ultimately that is enough to implement the innocent until proven guilty stance.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #184
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    end of the road wrote: »
    however where that opponent is a state, them deciding they want no rules is illegal and when they engage in such, they legitimize the forces they are fighting against.
    forces of the state are agents of the state, therefore when they do something wrong they have to be punished, whatever the other side does or did does not negate that reality.

    Its not illegal within the state if the state decides which rules to follow or not.

    They can also decide to preemptively strike something they believe is a future threat.


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    #185
    Marco23d
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 146 ✭✭Marco23d


    corner of hells wrote: »
    "Adams would be happy to admit being provo ?

    All his political life he has sought credibility on a world political stage and to admit to being in the IRA now would undo any shred of credibility he has.

    Ridiculous statement, everyone already knows he was in the IRA.

    Martin McGuiness was also a self confessed convicted member of the IRA along with countless other members of Sinn Fein and he still became Deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland and minister for education it didn't hurt his credibility at all in fact it's what gave Adams and McGuiness their credibility in the first place.


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    #186
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    end of the road wrote: »
    the british state had the ability to fight fair and even win.
    instead they engaged in colusion and all else and gave the other side more recruitment tools then they could ever dream of.

    Debatable. The core principle of Guerrilla War is that you can defeat the larger opponent. Also every time somethings ends up in a Guerrilla War it always gets nasty from both sides. Which is the argument for not starting one.

    I'm glad it all worked out. They must be happy with the result so.


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    #187
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Marco23d wrote: »
    Ridiculous statement, everyone already knows he was in the IRA.

    Martin McGuiness was also a self confessed convicted member of the IRA along with countless other members of Sinn Fein and he still became Deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland and minister for education it didn't hurt his credibility at all in fact it's what gave Adams and McGuiness their credibility in the first place.

    Ironically it was looking forward, not backward that allowed that. Which is the opposite of what you are doing here.


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    #188
    corner of hells
    Registered Users Posts: 8,385 ✭✭✭corner of hells


    Marco23d wrote: »
    Ridiculous statement, everyone already knows he was in the IRA.

    Martin McGuiness was also a self confessed convicted member of the IRA along with countless other members of Sinn Fein and he still became Deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland and minister for education it didn't hurt his credibility at all in fact it's what gave Adams and McGuiness their credibility in the first place.

    Will ya hush there .....

    Beardy doesn't know he was in the 'RA.


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    #189
    corner of hells
    Registered Users Posts: 8,385 ✭✭✭corner of hells


    beauf wrote: »
    Was he ever "credible" though really. It doesn't matter either way but its a meme at this stage.

    https://www.google.com/search?q=Gerry+adams+Meme&sxsrf=ALeKk02oTLGTQ6b3HoXHVFLzyvbP16VBdg:1619703888613&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiU5K-Xy6PwAhWDVRUIHVa_CzwQ_AUoAXoECAEQAw&biw=2133&bih=1041

    Nope.
    That man was born a liar.


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    #190
    Marco23d
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 146 ✭✭Marco23d


    beauf wrote: »
    Ironically it was looking forward, not backward that allowed that. Which is the opposite of what you are doing here.

    The first election Sinn Fein contested in 1983 they were only something like 25,000 votes behind the SDLP they took nearly half of the votes the SDLP had already established over the last ten years.

    The IRA is what got Sinn Fein off the ground and then plenty of hard work has now gotten them to the second most popular party in Northern Ireland and the most popular in the republic of Ireland.


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    #191
    corner of hells
    Registered Users Posts: 8,385 ✭✭✭corner of hells


    Marco23d wrote: »
    The first election Sinn Fein contested in 1983 they were only something like 25,000 votes behind the SDLP they took nearly half of the votes the SDLP had already established over the last ten years.

    The IRA is what got Sinn Fein off the ground and then plenty of hard work has now gotten them to the second most popular party in Northern Ireland and the most popular in the republic of Ireland.

    Derry Sinn Fein branch is doing pretty good at the moment too.


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    #192
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Marco23d wrote: »
    The first election Sinn Fein contested in 1983 they were only something like 25,000 votes behind the SDLP they took nearly half of the votes the SDLP had already established over the last ten years.

    The IRA is what got Sinn Fein off the ground and then plenty of hard work has now gotten them to the second most popular party in Northern Ireland and the most popular in the republic of Ireland.

    IRA established 1927 SF 1905.

    Kinda hard to argue everyone was brought to the table and into Govt through the gun. Rather the opposite.


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    #193
    Marco23d
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 146 ✭✭Marco23d


    beauf wrote: »
    IRA established 1927 SF 1905.

    Kinda hard to argue everyone was brought to the table and into Govt through the gun. Rather the opposite.


    Ah man.... You let yourself down there.


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    #194
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Wasn't the purpose of all that not a United Ireland...

    So the purpose of this thread is to get justice from whom exactly?


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    #195
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,099 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    beauf wrote: »
    Its not illegal within the state if the state decides which rules to follow or not.

    They can also decide to preemptively strike something they believe is a future threat.

    conflicts are subject to international and other external law, so when a state engages in certain actions that are a breach of those laws, they remain breaches of law.
    if domestic law conflicts with international law then the breaches still remain breaches and still remain illegal as international law will have to trump domestic law where a certain situation has the possibility of causing international effects, which the northern irish conflict would fit into that.

    beauf wrote: »
    Debatable. The core principle of Guerrilla War is that you can defeat the larger opponent. Also every time somethings ends up in a Guerrilla War it always gets nasty from both sides. Which is the argument for not starting one.

    I'm glad it all worked out. They must be happy with the result so.


    the british had the ability to ethnically cleanse the nationalist community if they wished to do so.
    so they absolutely had the ability to fight fair also given they had the numbers and equipment.
    the reason they didn't fight fair was they wanted to support and uphold 1 side and uphold a sectarian state that they didn't have to put much money into.
    thankfully they failed.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #196
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    end of the road wrote: »
    conflicts are subject to international and other external law, so when a state engages in certain actions that are a breach of those laws, they remain breaches of law.
    if domestic law conflicts with international law then the breaches still remain breaches and still remain illegal as international law will have to trump domestic law where a certain situation has the possibility of causing international effects, which the northern irish conflict would fit into that.

    What international effects were there from this incident...?
    end of the road wrote: »
    the british had the ability to ethnically cleanse the nationalist community if they wished to do so.
    so they absolutely had the ability to fight fair also given they had the numbers and equipment.
    the reason they didn't fight fair was they wanted to support and uphold 1 side and uphold a sectarian state that they didn't have to put much money into.
    thankfully they failed.

    If they failed how is the state still there. It's still the same money pit it has always been. They put enormous money into NI.

    Your issue still seems to be they didn't fight fair in response to the other side not fighting fair. You think this was unfair. Ironic.


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    #197
    Marco23d
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 146 ✭✭Marco23d


    The trial of two paratroopers for the murder of an IRA commander was on brink of collapse on Thursday night, after a senior judge was asked to throw out two crucial interviews as evidence.


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    #198
    political analyst
    Registered Users Posts: 4,560 ✭✭✭political analyst


    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-56948155
    As this was the crux of the prosecution's case, the judge agreed to adjourn the hearing until next week to allow the Public Prosecution Service (PPS) time to consider whether it wanted to appeal the decision.
    As he gave his ruling, Mr Justice O'Hara said that as an "inescapable consequence" of the "compelling" defence arguments, both the 1972 statements and the 2010 interviews "must be excluded" from the evidence.

    Mr Justice O'Hara said there was "oppression" of the soldiers in 1972 which "had not been removed" in 2010 and that prosecutors had failed to prove the statements were not obtained in that way.
    The hearing is expected to resume on Tuesday.


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    #199
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,099 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    beauf wrote: »
    What international effects were there from this incident...?



    If they failed how is the state still there. It's still the same money pit it has always been. They put enormous money into NI.

    Your issue still seems to be they didn't fight fair in response to the other side not fighting fair. You think this was unfair. Ironic.


    it failed because they are now having to put money into the place.
    before and during the troubles, very little money was put into northern ireland and the british government wanted it to stay that way, and remain a sectarian state that they didn't have to interveen in in any way.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #200
    Shebean
    Registered Users Posts: 1,324 ✭✭✭Shebean


    political analyst wrote: »
    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-56948155

    So the Judge has decided the witness statements shouldn't be included because he thinks they may have been biased in some way? Isn't that for the defence to prove not suggest?


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    #201
    political analyst
    Registered Users Posts: 4,560 ✭✭✭political analyst


    Shebean wrote: »
    So the Judge has decided the witness statements shouldn't be included because he thinks they may have been biased in some way? Isn't that for the defence to prove not suggest?

    No. Read the article.


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    #202
    Marco23d
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 146 ✭✭Marco23d


    end of the road wrote: »
    it failed because they are now having to put money into the place.
    before and during the troubles, very little money was put into northern ireland and the british government wanted it to stay that way, and remain a sectarian state that they didn't have to interveen in in any way.

    They eventually ended up putting all that money back in times 50.


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    #203
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,099 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Marco23d wrote: »
    They eventually ended up putting all that money back in times 50.




    correct, if only they had done that from the start.
    and if only they spent that money on actually growing the statelet rather then on simply keeping the bare basics ticking over.
    and if only they had tackled the sectarian nonsense the minute it began, oh how it would have been better for everybody.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #204
    Bass Reeves
    Registered Users Posts: 18,670 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    Paratroopers acquitted

    Slava Ukrainii



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    #205
    Manic Moran
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,413 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    Seems to be a rock and a hard place. Exclusionary evidence rules exist for a reason, and they are to be applied even when it may seem unfair to the prosecution or victim. The two troops are free and likely will remain so.

    That said, there may be some sort of civil suit possible by the family against the government as a result of incompetence of the investigation which tainted the evidence, especially if it was standard known practice at the time to conduct interviews in such a tainting manner.


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    #206
    Marco23d
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 146 ✭✭Marco23d


    Controversial plans to ban all prosecutions relating to the Troubles in Northern Ireland would also cover unsolved IRA attacks on the British mainland, it has emerged.
    The Government proposals, leaked last week, would exempt soldiers as well as terrorists from being put on trial over incidents which occured prior to the GFA.


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    #207
    Bass Reeves
    Registered Users Posts: 18,670 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    Marco23d wrote: »
    Controversial plans to ban all prosecutions relating to the Troubles in Northern Ireland would also cover unsolved IRA attacks on the British mainland, it has emerged.
    The Government proposals, leaked last week, would exempt soldiers as well as terrorists from being put on trial over incidents which occured prior to the GFA.


    TBH I think this should have been done 5years ago. For the last 10 years+ we have had republican's targeting security services personnel to try to make criminal cases against there action. They have done this on the knowledge that any possibility of criminal charges in historical terrorism cases were minimal. . This would end these charades

    Slava Ukrainii



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    #208
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,099 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Bass Reeves wrote: »
    TBH I think this should have been done 5years ago. For the last 10 years+ we have had republican's targeting security services personnel to try to make criminal cases against there action. They have done this on the knowledge that any possibility of criminal charges in historical terrorism cases were minimal. . This would end these charades

    there was only 1 case where that happened and the lawyer involved was i believe prosecuted and struck off, so such issues are already able to be dealt with.
    the only reason this law is going to be brought in, assuming it will, is to prevent it coming out as to how much up to their necks the british government and security services were in the troubles.
    the law might have validity if it applied to all criminality after a certain point, so a statute of limitations for all crimes, but it won't.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #209
    Hqrry113
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 273 ✭✭Hqrry113


    Joe McCann one of the most fearless, effective and intelligent guerilla fighters of recent history.

    He fought not only for the people but for his countries honlr, him and many others showed to the world that the Irish aren't a bunch of potato eating cowards who will take whatever s*** gets thrown at them.

    May this true soldier of Ireland rest in peace.


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