Johan Cruyff

The Golden Miller

Was just thinking about this today. We talk of the best players to ever play the game and Cruyff will obviously be in the conversation. But when you look at it, he is never considered THE best player of all time. Polls and critiques will often rate him 2, 3 or 4, but never number 1. Interchangeable between Pele and Maradona, even now often put behind Messi and Ronaldo. Can't remember him ever being placed number 1 on any list. Is it because he never won the World Cup, or some facet of his game that he was weak in that I'm missing?

You see the thing is, when you look at it objectively, he really has no peers. He was so good he turned a nation into a football mad country, and was the foundation who pulled the strings (for a then poor club Ajax) to European glory on several occasions. He was unplayable in his pomp.

You could argue Maradona was better and you wouldn't be wrong. In terms of his ability to dribble by everyone and force his will on the game in gung ho fashion, he was better. But in terms of genius, craft, technical ability, vision, passing, strength on the ball, Cruyff had no peers. Watching him coolly pull the strings and set the tempo of a game, was watching a master at work, his mind nearly scientifically analysing the best ball to play. Yet it's rare if you'll ever see this guy ranked as THE very best footballer ever, which really he was. It should be something that is generally accepted

Royal Irish

Johan is by far the most intelligent football player of all time in my opinion.

Maradona the most naturally gifted of all time.

I love these discussions. If you got every poster on boards soccer forum to do a top 10 the chances of their being an identical top 10 between two posters are slim to none.

The Golden Miller

Royal Irish wrote: »

Johan is by far the most intelligent football player of all time in my opinion.

Maradona the most naturally gifted of all time.

I love these discussions. If you got every poster on boards soccer forum to do a top 10 the chances of their being an identical top 10 between two posters are slim to none.

That's the thing though, no one will outright have Cruyff as number 1

bassy

my favourite player of all time is cantona the man was immense and changed the face of manchester united and fergies fledglings.
i also rate dennis berkamp very highly even though im a united fan,and ye i get the whole best or greatest player of all time etc but i loved cantona.

don,t forget bestie guys.

NIMAN

I think when football fans talk about the GOAT, you tend to find only Pele, Messi and Maradona are mentioned.

I think Ronaldo, Cruyff, Best, Eusebio, Di Stefano etc all come in a group below them.
I don't think Cruyff's influence and genius is doubted by anyone, its just that he isn't in the Top 3.

NIMAN

The Golden Miller wrote: »

That's the thing though, no one will outright have Cruyff as number 1

I also don't think the average football fan will have seen much action of Cruyff actually playing, bar maybe the turn, the highlights of the 74 WC and some Ajax goals.

Whereas we have lots more footage of Messi and Maradona, and to a lesser extent Pele.

bassy

you can really say there is not a number one player of all time,because a lot of the players mentioned on this thread were outstanding footballers best pele maradonna cruyff etc etc

bassy

i suppose only thing that goes against best is he did,nt do it for a long period of years,probaly cause of hes interest in women drink clubbing etc etc

The Golden Miller

NIMAN wrote: »

I think when football fans talk about the GOAT, you tend to find only Pele, Messi and Maradona are mentioned.

I think Ronaldo, Cruyff, Best, Eusebio, Di Stefano etc all come in a group below them.
I don't think Cruyff's influence and genius is doubted by anyone, its just that he isn't in the Top 3.

I think it would be generally accepted Cruyff was no. 3 behind the others you mentioned, sort of half a level below Pele or Maradona, half a level above the rest

You say he wouldn't be in your top 3, that's what I'm sort of getting at. Why not? He had no weakness really. An all round brilliant player who had it all. Yet there's something there that he seems to lack in people's eye's, that they place his a few positions down any list. But I dunno what that is

charolais0153

Think the top 5 kinda pick themselves. Cruyff, Messi, cr7, maradona ,Pele. Rest is a lot harder , them boys were levels above the rest .

NIMAN

As I said, I think its because I simply did not see enough games of him in action.
What I did see looked fantastic, I just wish there was more.

We also have to remember the impact he had as a manager.
He completely revolutionalised Barca and how they played football, and gave us a sensational product.

Not many of the 'greats' could say that too.


Edit: if only he had played in 78 too, Holland would have been world champions.

shoxter

Don't forget to throw Beckenbauer into the mix, World Cup and European championship winning captain with Germany, three European cups and two Ballon d'Or with Bayern Munich as well as numerous German League and cups. Was both composed and elegant.

The Golden Miller

NIMAN wrote: »

As I said, I think its because I simply did not see enough games of him in action.
What I did see looked fantastic, I just wish there was more.

We also have to remember the impact he had as a manager.
He completely revolutionalised Barca and how they played football, and gave us a sensational product.

Not many of the 'greats' could say that too.

Ye but I think it's more than that. He's always sort of rated number 3 by people who saw loads of him

His influence off the field is unrivaled as you say. The visionary of the Ajax youth system. He did the same at Barca. People don't realise at the end of the 00's the Ajax youth system was struggling and he was asked to come back. It was overhauled under his guidance and they made the Champions League semi. 10 years later the kids have grown up and now the players are coming through again because of Cruyff's oversight. Barca though, underage, are rudderless without him, what happened Ajax in mid 00's

Zaph

NIMAN wrote: »

I also don't think the average football fan will have seen much action of Cruyff actually playing, bar maybe the turn, the highlights of the 74 WC and some Ajax goals.

Whereas we have lots more footage of Messi and Maradona, and to a lesser extent Pele.

I think that's a fair point. Cruyff only played in the 1974 World Cup. Had he played in 1978 he'd have gained greater exposure and probably be more highly considered than he generally is. And that would only be further enhanced had the Dutch won. At the time the only chance to see players like him, Neeskens and Beckenbauer outside of World Cups was European football, and that was really only ever brief highlights on Sportsnight. If he was playing now with today's saturation coverage the debate would probably be who's better between him and Messi.

The Golden Miller

bassy wrote: »

my favourite player of all time is cantona the man was immense and changed the face of manchester united and fergies fledglings.
i also rate dennis berkamp very highly even though im a united fan,and ye i get the whole best or greatest player of all time etc but i loved cantona.

don,t forget bestie guys.

Ye Berkamp and Cantona had that mercurial genuis about them, as did Aimar. Best was another level though, but I'm not sure he warrants being on a level with Cruyff.

There is a good story of him nutmegging Cruyff though

Shanotheslayer

These lists will always change because everyone's Criteria for GOAT is different. You also have to take into consideration age generations.

I'm 28 so I can't really comment on Maradona as I never saw him play. I can awknowledge his clips etc and what he did. Similar to what many do with Pele.

I suppose it needs to be broken down into generations. People older than me can compare the likes of Maradona/Cryuff etc.

My 3 for my generation would be Messi/Ronaldo and I could spend all day picking a 3rd but I'm ultimately biased towards Ronaldinho/Henry

LuckyLloyd

Is longevity important to you? Or do you rate higher more defined peaks as more important? Do you place importance on the player getting over the line in a major International tournament? Do they have to be likeable? Is it important that their personal life be beyond reproach? Do you weight their managerial career in terms of their legacy?

WesternZulu

bassy wrote: »

don,t forget bestie guys.

I don't think Best is rated nearly as highly worldwide as here and the UK.
He shone bright for a very brief period but went downhill fast.

I have watched YouTube video's of him in action and to be honest I'm a bit underwhelmed and from that think he's very overrated. He is nowhere near the level of Pele who was playing during the same period.

Maradona, Messi and Ronaldo are far better as well and have been far more consistently brilliant throughout their playing careers. I'd even have the likes of the Brazilian Ronaldo and Zindane as well as Cryuff ahead of Best in the conversation.

Weepsie

WesternZulu wrote: »

I don't think Best is rated nearly as highly worldwide as here and the UK.
He shone bright for a very brief period but went downhill fast.
.

9 years at the highest level (of the time) is hardly brief. From 63-72 he was undeniably brilliant and world class.

We all know how YouTube is a great source too. I'm sure it has all 470 games he had for united in there? WE had Best videos in my house growing up. MY dad is an Everton fan, but he absolutely loved George Best. He made the game look very easy, and could slow it down to a walking pace when suited him. It's his own fault he didn't push on. There's obviously a lot of sentiment there, because he was easily one of the most talented players ever to play the game, but people see him as some sort of lost soul, rather than a creature of his own making.

He, Pele, Cruyff etc and all were all marked by 2-3 players and kicked up and down the pitch.

Going to make a shout for Maldini in the conversation too. He made everything look effortless.

Shanotheslayer

Weepsie wrote: »

We all know how YouTube is a great source too. I'm sure it has all 470 games he had for united in there? WE had Best videos in my house growing up.

I'm not sure if you understand the irony of that.

Nunu

Johan Cruyff was the business.

The opening minute of the 1974 WC final is the greatest passage of play I’ve ever seen on a football pitch. He’s basically a conductor of the Dutch orchestra or a chess master.

Cruyff tips off and the ball makes it way to the back line. He jogs purposely back then moves across the pitch and picks up the ball deep in his own half. In possession now he orders his defence further up the field before playing a short pass in field. Then he sits in the centre circle alone. Every single outfield team mate and opponent is further forward and he watches them keep possession in front him and waits. He’s very clearly set this up himself so when the ball makes its way back to him he goes for it, out of nowhere, a direct slaloming run into the German box and he’s taken down for a penalty. It’s incredible to watch.

SlickRic

'El Fenomeno' Ronaldo gets on these lists far less frequently than he should too.

The Floyd p

When you consider the significantly curtailed career due to injuries, I don't know how people can throw Henry in with R9.
I know Henry was incredible, definitely the best PL player in my opinion, but R9 was another animal.

He is only 3 career goals behind Henry, despite playing over 250 games fewer. He was a phenomenon, truly.

I'd have Cruyff, Maradona, Pele, Messi, CR7 and R9 in that echelon. Marco Van Basten too achieved an awful lot despite a desperately short career.

Captain Havoc

There was a great book that came out twenty years ago or more called Ajax, Barcelona, Cruyff, which was excellent, a collection of interviews throughout the years with authors. I also read his autobiography and it kinda sounds like the rantings of a bitter old man at times. Before my time as a player, so it's unfair for me to compare him with other players.

Here's an amazing youtube video with plenty of highlights and a great soundtrack. Love the bits of Dutch commentry thrown in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIAVTd3jVe8

adaminho

I think I mentioned it in the Maradona thread, the Junior soccer team I played for picked the Argentina kit when we were founded in the 80's but never used the 10 shirt! I always used the 14 Jersey when playing because of Cruyff!
My wife's step dad was a massive Ajax fan growing up in the Netherlands and was one of the first people to have a super-8 camera there. He used to get free tickets for giving them access to his reels probably making him the first video analysts!

RugbyLover123

Zidane has to be in any conversation about greatest players.

The main man in a World Cup win, Euro Cup win, most memorable CL goal of all time & almost dragged France to another WC.

adaminho

RugbyLover123 wrote: »

Zidane has to be in any conversation about greatest players.

The main man in a World Cup win, Euro Cup win, most memorable CL goal of all time & almost dragged France to another WC.

Definitely Second tier. Not in a bad way, but there is a shelf where you go top tier and the rest and he would be be with the rest! The OP stated that Cruyff never really cracked the top two in the the world and I'd say ZZ wouldn't make the top 5(you could argue top 10)

Liam O

RugbyLover123 wrote: »

Zidane has to be in any conversation about greatest players.

The main man in a World Cup win, Euro Cup win, most memorable CL goal of all time & almost dragged France to another WC.

Big game player (maybe the best ever at that?) and was one of my favourite players to watch but his goal record is fairly abysmal and I'm not sure he could be relied on over a full season to produce week in, week out.

The likes of Messi and Ronaldo (2 best by a distance imo) and older players like Maradona and Cruyff, who I've obviously seen a lot less of were just different gravy, combining skill and goals whereas Zidane could have a game where everyone would be dazzled by his skill but he didn't actually affect the final scoreline.

If only Ronaldinho wasn't so fond of the nightclubs, he's my favourite player and his peak 3-4 seasons at Barca are potentially as good as I've seen from anyone outside of the crazy Ronaldo and Messi seasons

The Golden Miller

Liam O wrote: »

Big game player (maybe the best ever at that?) and was one of my favourite players to watch but his goal record is fairly abysmal and I'm not sure he could be relied on over a full season to produce week in, week out.

The likes of Messi and Ronaldo (2 best by a distance imo) and older players like Maradona and Cruyff, who I've obviously seen a lot less of were just different gravy, combining skill and goals whereas Zidane could have a game where everyone would be dazzled by his skill but he didn't actually affect the final scoreline.

That's if you believe pulling the strings and dictating the game itself "doesn't effect the scoreline"

KevRossi

I think when we talk of the greatest player of all time we tend to think of goalscorers or those who played beautiful passes and took great shots. We tend to reduce the Beckenbauers, Zidane's, Maldini's and Baresi's (also the Lev Yashin's) automatically to a second tier.

Beckenbauer always said he would be nothing without Schwarzenbeck, so how good was Schwarzenbeck? Who has ever heard of him outside Germany? I used to meet him a couple of times a week as he ran a newsagents in Munich near the Deutshce Museum. Talk to a German and they'll talk of Beckenbauer in the same breath as Netzer, Gerd Muller and Matthaus.

The most technically gifted player I've ever seen live was Maradona, I had the privilege of seeing him play 3 times, the first time I hitchhiked over 1,000 km with my girlfriend to see him play in Milan. But to me he blew a lot of his career, so can we truly call him the greatest?

The greatest I've seen live and on TV is Zidane. He had it all, as a player and as a leader on the pitch. He could play at the top level in any position on the pitch and was unbeatable in many of those positions.

I'd put Cruyff behind him, maybe he was more gifted in some dimensions but overall Zidane had more talents in more areas of the pitch.

el Fenomeno

SlickRic wrote: »

'El Fenomeno' Ronaldo gets on these lists far less frequently than he should too.

Thanks, it's nice to get a bit of recognition every now and then.

Liam O

The Golden Miller wrote: »

That's if you believe pulling the strings and dictating the game itself "doesn't effect the scoreline"

Well, his 3 league titles is a bit paltry when you consider the teams that he was on.

Not the be all and end all but you get the feeling he may not have been overly arsed about an away game at Espanyol compared to their city counterparts.

He was one of my first football heroes so I find it tough to disparage him as his highs were incredible but I think overall he should have achieved a lot more in a team sense all things considered.

Hodors Appletart

The thing is, there is no single answer to the GOAT question - different people have different value judgements and place importance on different things, or different things matter more at different points in time.

Personally I think "winning a world cup" is a nonsense metric to place on any player in this discussion, especially for any player who's come to prominence since maybe Italia 90 or USA94, basically the early to mid 90s when the CL began to become the premier world football competition, with the best players playing in it.

I also think anyone who is posting regularly on social media who tries to claim that they know the likes of Pele, Best and even Maradona are the best players ever are deluding themselves and trying to appear knowledeable, or parroting perceived wisdom - you've seen highlight reels at best, possibly one or two full matches which are the pinnacle of those players' careers.

Now I'm going to contradict myself, but to me it stand to reason that Messi & Ronaldo should replace or at the very least join Pele and Maradona at that top table of greats. They are better players, in my opinion, because standards today are better, they are in better physical condition and play against better players more regularly and stand out against those better players time and again.

jacool

Hodors Appletart wrote: »

Now I'm going to contradict myself, but to me it stand to reason that Messi & Ronaldo should replace or at the very least join Pele and Maradona at that top table of greats. They are better players, in my opinion, because standards today are better, they are in better physical condition and play against better players more regularly and stand out against those better players time and again.

They are used to getting kicked up and down the park by tough opponents because this is a man's game and you have to be able to take it to survive.
Oh sorry, no. They get touched and go down like they have been shot.

I'd say if Pele and Maradona were young now, they could train hard and fit in.
If you sent the modern players back to the 60s,70s and 80s they'd be destroyed.
None of them would survive, say what Pele suffered in the 3 games in 1966.

Tchaikovsky

He's the coolest of the 'best ever' players, for sure.

eigrod

Royal Irish wrote: »

Johan is by far the most intelligent football player of all time in my opinion.

Maradona the most naturally gifted of all time.

I love these discussions. If you got every poster on boards soccer forum to do a top 10 the chances of their being an identical top 10 between two posters are slim to none.

Kenny Dalglish was the most intelligent footballer in my time following football, but I wouldn’t argue with you that Cruyff is up there too.

Dalglish was a phenomenal footballer and it’s no co-incidence Celtic & Liverpool won so much in his time playing with them. 100+ caps and 30 goals for Scotland too at a time when most International games were against quality opposition.

The Golden Miller

Just thinking there, Cruyff and Kaka were very similar players. Cruyff more intelligent, but Kaka similar in how he ran at defences. Kaka probably being the strongest and quickest player I've ever seen with the ball at his feet. Like the road runner.

Cruyff craftier at beating players, Kaka stronger, but similar in grace and elegance