Arlene, Edwin, her replacement and his replacement as leader of the DUP

realdanbreen

I se PP have poots 8/11 and sir at evens. I think I'll have a little on sir j. PP paid out on Hillary before and also paid out on Brexit losing!

BonnieSituation

realdanbreen wrote: »

I'm sure you will agree that the result of a border poll should it favour a United Ireland will be marginal. Can you then accept that the 47% or whatever who lose are unlikely to peacefully merge into a UI. The same applies if the poll favours remaining in the union, just years and years continued division. Like I say any DUP or Sf member who proposed ditching decades old failed policies would swiftly find themselves on the ( at best) political scrapheap.

Oh look, using threats of loyalist violence to stop the democratic process. Where have we seen this one before?

Do you guys really miss the Unionist veto that much?

realdanbreen

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Imposed United Ireland?

As partitionists are always ar pains to shout about "CONSENT", surely then this works both ways?

A UI can only come about by strictly democratic means. Nothing will be imposed, no matter how hard partitionists and belligerent loyalists bleat about it.

An independent NI is not on the agenda and is in direct contravention of the GFA. You know, that document that a majority of the people of Ireland voted for in 2 referenda in 1998. You're not against democracy surely?

Not against democracy but I live in the real world. If you believe that the 47% or whatever that lose out in border poll will meekly accept the result then you are either nieve or indifferent to the catastrophe that will follow.

FrancieBrady

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Imposed United Ireland?

As partitionists are always ar pains to shout about "CONSENT", surely then this works both ways?

A UI can only come about by strictly democratic means. Nothing will be imposed, no matter how hard partitionists and belligerent loyalists bleat about it.

An independent NI is not on the agenda and is in direct contravention of the GFA. You know, that document that a majority of the people of Ireland voted for in 2 referenda in 1998. You're not against democracy surely?

They parrot on about the hero John Hume was, but as soon as Hume's 'consent' principle goes against them they are kicking and screaming about 'impositions'.

BonnieSituation

realdanbreen wrote: »

Not against democracy but I live in the real world. If you believe that the 47% or whatever that lose out in border poll will meekly accept the result then you are either nieve or indifferent to the catastrophe that will follow.

So again, you're using loyalist threats of violence to disenfranchise the wishes of the majority?

Sounds anti-democratic to me.

FrancieBrady

realdanbreen wrote: »

Not against democracy but I live in the real world. If you believe that the 47% or whatever that lose out in border poll will meekly accept the result then you are either nieve or indifferent to the catastrophe that will follow.

If you believe an independent NI is a solution then you are even more naïve.

Fionn1952

realdanbreen wrote: »

Not against democracy but I live in the real world. If you believe that the 47% or whatever that lose out in border poll will meekly accept the result then you are either nieve or indifferent to the catastrophe that will follow.

The alternative you're proposing is to impose a solution which tears up the agreement which finally led to peace in the place. If you believe that the 90+% of people who don't want that, and have been denied their right to decide on the constitutional position of their home, guaranteed by international treaty, will meekly accept the result, then you're either even more naive or indifferent to the catastrophe that would follow.


I suspect the latter, with the concept being based around making it, 'not my problem' regardless of the outcome.

realdanbreen

BonnieSituation wrote: »

So again, you're using loyalist threats of violence to disenfranchise the wishes of the majority?

Sounds anti-democratic to me.

At this stage I have to accept that English might not be your first language. I never suggested there would be loyalist violence only . I am saying that the results of a border poll will not be worth the paper it's written on regardless of which result comes back.

blanch152

realdanbreen wrote: »

Not against democracy but I live in the real world. If you believe that the 47% or whatever that lose out in border poll will meekly accept the result then you are either nieve or indifferent to the catastrophe that will follow.

That is exactly why the recent poll showed that the vast majority of people on this island want a super-majority (more than 66%) to be part of a border poll requirement.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

That is exactly why the recent poll showed that the vast majority of people on this island want a super-majority (more than 66%) to be part of a border poll requirement.

The vast majority want a border poll too blanch.

And they are not getting one nor are entitled to it, according to you.

If somebody desperate enough wants to renegotiate the GFA, let them start the process, but until that happens, a simple majority it is.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The vast majority want a border poll too blanch.

And they are not getting one nor are entitled to it, according to you.

If somebody desperate enough wants to renegotiate the GFA, let them start the process, but until that happens, a simple majority it is.

Oh, I know, but those who call for a border poll because a majority want it, should also be calling for a super-majority in that border poll, because a larger majority wants that. I am calling for neither.

BonnieSituation

realdanbreen wrote: »

At this stage I have to accept that English might not be your first language. I never suggested there would be loyalist violence only . I am saying that the results of a border poll will not be worth the paper it's written on regardless of which result comes back.

When one is out of one's depth, one should resort to an ad hominem, shouldn't one?

You're ill-equipped to speak on this matter. That you continue not do so is a frightful demonstration of the power of the ego.

That being said, you may not actually understand what "democracy" is, what aspects of your post appear to be "anti-democratic" in tone or even what is meant by the term, "Unionist veto". When these terms seem clearer to you, perhaps you'll return and recant?

Or you could Google Carson and Craig for the lols like our good friend seb and see where it takes ya.

realdanbreen

Anyone that believes that the day after the results of a border poll are announced, whichever way it goes, we are all going to live happily ever after is imo mind knumbingly delusional. If that were the case then what has the upheaval over the last 100 years been all about!

BonnieSituation

realdanbreen wrote: »

Anyone that believes that the day after the results of a border poll are announced, whichever way it goes, we are all going to live happily ever after is imo mind knumbingly delusional. If that were the case then what has the upheaval over the last 100 years been all about!

You're the one setting up the "day after a referendum" straw man. No one has stated otherwise that there would or wouldn't be "upheaval" as you're wont to put it.

realdanbreen

BonnieSituation wrote: »

When one is out of one's depth, one should resort to an ad hominem, shouldn't one?

You're ill-equipped to speak on this matter. That you continue not do so is a frightful demonstration of the power of the ego.

That being said, you may not actually understand what "democracy" is, what aspects of your post appear to be "anti-democratic" in tone or even what is meant by the term, "Unionist veto". When these terms seem clearer to you, perhaps you'll return and recant?

Or you could Google Carson and Craig for the lols like our good friend seb and see where it takes ya.

Wow! You obviously impressed yourself writing that post, recant eh, hadn't come across that since Charles Dickens.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Oh, I know, but those who call for a border poll because a majority want it, should also be calling for a super-majority in that border poll, because a larger majority wants that. I am calling for neither.

You are not calling for a super majority? Great stuff.

A border poll is already provided for in the GFA...a super majority is not BTW.
If a majority want a super majority the GFA has to be renegotiated,

FileNotFound

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You are not calling for a super majority? Great stuff.

A border poll is already provided for in the GFA...a super majority is not BTW.
If a majority want a super majority the GFA has to be renegotiated,

As you say - the system is already planned - just needs implementing.

End of really or at least should be - will people be unhappy? of course but over the last few weeks I have come to accept that unhappiness is the natural state for many in the North.

BonnieSituation

realdanbreen wrote: »

Wow! You obviously impressed yourself writing that post, recant eh, hadn't come across that since Charles Dickens.

Obviously English isn't your first language so...

That you don't disagree with it at least shows us where your knowledge-base begins and ends. Makes it easier to engage or disengage as it were.

FrancieBrady

realdanbreen wrote: »

Anyone that believes that the day after the results of a border poll are announced, whichever way it goes, we are all going to live happily ever after is imo mind knumbingly delusional. If that were the case then what has the upheaval over the last 100 years been all about!

YOUR solution is to force Unionists out of their Union and force Nationalists to forgo their aspirations to a UI and to create an independent state that has shown tragically that it cannot govern itself over the last 100 years.

realdanbreen

FrancieBrady wrote: »

YOUR solution is to force Unionists out of their Union and force Nationalists to forgo their aspirations to a UI and to create an independent state that has shown tragically that it cannot govern itself over the last 100 years.

You know what francie I'm not here to convert anyone to my way of thinking and certainly not here to play along with those who want the same old horse**** politics to continue up north where at the end of the day the less well off on both sides suffer the most. Sir Jeffrey for leader, get your money down.

FrancieBrady

realdanbreen wrote: »

You know what francie I'm not here to convert anyone to my way of thinking and certainly not here to play along with those who want the same old horse**** politics to continue up north where at the end of the day the less well off on both sides suffer the most. Sir Jeffrey for leader, get your money down.

You are advocating the imposition of something though. I'm for majority consent myself.

I'm going for Poots, because I think these guys have lost any idea of what a decent strategy is. Siege mentalities never lead to good choices.

realdanbreen

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You are advocating the imposition of something though. I'm for majority consent myself.

I'm going for Poots, because I think these guys have lost any idea of what a decent strategy is. Siege mentalities never lead to good choices.

I get it, you ' have a feeling in your waters" that if we stick to the same old policies everything will be grand. I guess it's progression from praying to saint Thomas for a solution.

cameramonkey

blanch152 wrote: »

If you talk to a young person from Northern Ireland living abroad, it is nearly 100% their position, as they see themselves as neither Irish nor British. Many left Northern Ireland because they were sick and tired of the old dated rhetoric from the old men and women of hate politics.

Did you do a survey to come up with that figure that nearly 100% see themselves as NIish? I have to say that you come up with some rubbish but this is a whole new pile of made up crap.

cameramonkey

For the sake of the country I hope Edwin wins. He is an absolute nutter. It will hasten the day for the dustruction of the failed political entinty that is Northenn Ireland. Between Boris, Arlenene and now hopefully Edwin Irish republisim has been blessed.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You are not calling for a super majority? Great stuff.

A border poll is already provided for in the GFA...a super majority is not BTW.
If a majority want a super majority the GFA has to be renegotiated,

The conditions set out by the GFA are a long way from being met with only 35% supporting unity in the most recent opinion poll, so those calling for a border poll are advocating a breach of the GFA. If they want one, they should renegotiate the GFA.

breezy1985

blanch152 wrote: »

If you talk to a young person from Northern Ireland living abroad, it is nearly 100% their position, as they see themselves as neither Irish nor British. Many left Northern Ireland because they were sick and tired of the old dated rhetoric from the old men and women of hate politics.

It rare but I agree with you all my experience of NI people abroad was a completely neutral one. No mention of what side of the peace wall they came from and no inclination to try find out my views on Sinn Fein or whatever.

The only politics I encountered from NI people usually came from people active in areas like LGTB+ rights or similar equality campaigns. They really just wanted to be the same as young people from everywhere else

breezy1985

blanch152 wrote: »

The conditions set out by the GFA are a long way from being met with only 35% supporting unity in the most recent opinion poll, so those calling for a border poll are advocating a breach of the GFA. If they want one, they should renegotiate the GFA.

35% support is an educated guess though and the only true way to tell is voting. I don't think the numbers are there yet though and if it was actually called then a lot of the people shouting for one would soil themselves

Fionn1952

breezy1985 wrote: »

It rare but I agree with you all my experience of NI people abroad was a completely neutral one. No mention of what side of the peace wall they came from and no inclination to try find out my views on Sinn Fein or whatever.

The only politics I encountered from NI people usually came from people active in areas like LGTB+ rights or similar equality campaigns. They really just wanted to be the same as young people from everywhere else

So they weren't staunch supporters of NI Separatism like Blanch said?

Apolitical or unconcerned with the Constitutional Question I'd fully believe.....active supporters of NI Independence, naw.

breezy1985

Fionn1952 wrote: »

So they weren't staunch supporters of NI Separatism like Blanch said?

Apolitical or unconcerned with the Constitutional Question I'd fully believe.....active supporters of NI Independence, naw.

The post I replied to didn't mention NI independence. I must have missed that earlier if he said it

breezy1985

Fionn1952 wrote: »

So they weren't staunch supporters of NI Separatism like Blanch said?

Apolitical or unconcerned with the Constitutional Question I'd fully believe.....active supporters of NI Independence, naw.

The post I replied to didn't mention NI independence. I must have missed that earlier if he said it.

On NI the were very happy with the way things were under the EU because it took the question of sides and borders mostly off the table in their own lives