Arlene, Edwin, her replacement and his replacement as leader of the DUP

Lucy8080

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Givan is a creationist just like Poots. So they don't believe in dinosaurs, ironically.

He does believe in the controlled use of fire though, judging by that bonfire picture above!

Evidence for the " microscopic traces of wood ash " as controlled use of "fire" by Homo erectus , beginning some 1,000,000 years ago, has wide scholarly support.

There is no evidence pointing to a " cash for ash scheme" all those years ago!

JupiterKid

Edwin Poots is a symptom of the real dearth of decent politicians up North who would rather work to move the province forward, economically and socially, than to engage in more tribal, tit for tat tactics and mouth off views that belong in the Middle Ages.

Factional, tribal, sectarian politics trumps common sense and actually running NI properly and working to raise the living standards and quality of life of their constituents.

But then again, keeping their constituents ignorant and disadvantaged and whipping up sectarian hatred keeps people like Poots et al. in power... (that goes for both sides - the Shinners as well as the DUP, the DUP is just much more obvious). Until Northern Ireland moves away from factional sectarian politics, nothing much will really change. The province has serious and very deep-seated social and economic problems that badly need addressing.

Arlene may not have been the most charismatic First Minister and DUP leader, but at least you knew what to expect from her - with Poots, all bets are off. The DUP are firmly entrenched in a 17th century pre-Enlightenment mindset. Their dream would probably be for the world to become something out of The Handmaid's Tale.

This makes me pretty sad as I am Belfast-born, my family are Northerners and I have a deep affinity with the North and want to see it move into the 21st Century.
If I had the vote up there, it would be Alliance all the way.

cameramonkey

JupiterKid wrote: »

Edwin Poots is a symptom of the real dearth of decent politicians up North who would rather work to move the province forward, economically and socially, than to engage in more tribal, tit for tat tactics and mouth off views that belong in the Middle Ages.

Factional, tribal, sectarian politics trumps common sense and actually running NI properly and working to raise the living standards and quality of life of their constituents.

But then again, keeping their constituents ignorant and disadvantaged and whipping up sectarian hatred keeps people like Poots et al. in power... (that goes for both sides - the Shinners as well as the DUP, the DUP is just much more obvious). Until Northern Ireland moves away from factional sectarian politics, nothing much will really change. The province has serious and very deep-seated social and economic problems that badly need addressing.

Arlene may not have been the most charismatic First Minister and DUP leader, but at least you knew what to expect from her - with Poots, all bets are off. The DUP are firmly entrenched in a 17th century pre-Enlightenment mindset. Their dream would probably be for the world to become something out of The Handmaid's Tale.

This makes me pretty sad as I am Belfast-born, my family are Northerners and I have a deep affinity with the North and want to see it move into the 21st Century.
If I had the vote up there, it would be Alliance all the way.

I think that is rather a facile reading of politics in the North. To lump SF and the DUP into the same category is simplistic. SF have most of the attributes associated with a modern social democratic party, their stance on LGBT issues, women rights and human rights are closer to the Alliance or SDLP. The tendency by people with little knowledge of politics is to say that they are two sides of the same coin, is at best misleading.

JupiterKid

cameramonkey wrote: »

I think that is rather a facile reading of politics in the North. To lump SF and the DUP into the same category is simplistic. SF have most of the attributes associated with a modern social democratic party, their stance on LGBT issues, women rights and human rights are closer to the Alliance or SDLP. The tendency by people with little knowledge of politics is to say that they are two sides of the same coin, is at best misleading.

Sorry, I would beg to differ on that view. And less of the patronising and condescending tone please.

Sinn Fein have engaged in tribal sectarian politics themselves at the grassroots level and although they are for sure more progressive on social issues than the DUP (which admittedly wouldn't be hard) there is a definite vibe of secrecy, inner circles operating, a culture of omerta and dismissal of views that differ from their own world view and the future direction of Northern Ireland.

The best hope IMO for the future of NI is the re-growth of the more moderate parties such as the SDLP, UUP and Alliance. Northern Ireland badly needs to move away from tit for tat sectarian politics and all the evidence is that the Shinners engage in it as much as the DUP. The electoral shift to the extremes after the 1998 GFA was a real step backwards for Northern Ireland.

SF may want to be seen as tolerant, modern and progressive but the reality from what I hear and see myself and from my wider family and friends based up North is rather different.

I was also told at a function up North a few years ago by an ardent SF party member that their aim was to rid the North of all Unionists, no ifs or buts.

Northern Ireland these days is sorely lacking politicians of the calibre of the late John Hume, and is all the poorer for it.

FrancieBrady

JupiterKid wrote: »

Sorry, I would beg to differ on that view. And less of the patronising and condescending tone please.

Sinn Fein have engaged in tribal sectarian politics themselves at the grassroots level and although they are for sure more progressive on social issues than the DUP (which admittedly wouldn't be hard) there is a definite vibe of secrecy, inner circles operating, a culture of omerta and dismissal of views that differ from their own world view and the future direction of Northern Ireland.

The best hope IMO for the future of NI is the re-growth of the more moderate parties such as the SDLP, UUP and Alliance. Northern Ireland badly needs to move away from tit for tat sectarian politics and all the evidence is that the Shinners engage in it as much as the DUP. The electoral shift to the extremes after the 1998 GFA was a real step backwards for Northern Ireland.

SF may want to be seen as tolerant, modern and progressive but the reality from what I hear and see myself and from my wider family and friends based up North is rather different.

I was also told at a function up North a few years ago by an ardent SF party member that their aim was to rid the North of all Unionists, no ifs or buts.

Northern Ireland these days is sorely lacking politicians of the calibre of the late John Hume, and is all the poorer for it.

Can you point to a SF policy that is 'tribal and sectarian'?

cameramonkey

JupiterKid wrote: »

Sorry, I would beg to differ on that view. And less of the patronising and condescending tone please.

Sinn Fein have engaged in tribal sectarian politics themselves at the grassroots level and although they are for sure more progressive on social issues than the DUP (which admittedly wouldn't be hard) there is a definite vibe of secrecy, inner circles operating, a culture of omerta and dismissal of views that differ from their own world view and the future direction of Northern Ireland.

The best hope IMO for the future of NI is the re-growth of the more moderate parties such as the SDLP#, UUP and Alliance. Northern Ireland badly needs to move away from tit for tat sectarian politics and all the evidence is that the Shinners engage in it as much as the DUP. The electoral shift to the extremes after the 1998 GFA was a real step backwards for Northern Ireland.

SF may want to be seen as tolerant, modern and progressive but the reality from what I hear and see myself and from my wider family and friends based up North is rather different.

I was also told at a function up North a few years ago by an ardent SF party member that their aim was to rid the North of all Unionists, no ifs or buts.

As you say the best hope for NI is the alliance. I am not a unionist so why would I want the NI to continue to exist and why would I want a unionist party to prosper.. It is as CJ said a failed political entity, you could add in economic and cultural and really any heading to that. The NI state is based on a sectarian head count and the GFA set that in stone in some ways so all discourse will centre around sectarian head counts .NI is a **** show that should be put out of its misery. Why would you want to prolong the suffering of those living there and also expose the south to the collateral damage that seems to go hand in hand with every move by the UK or the Unionist. As for the UUP being moderate , what is their stance on the ILA?



As for the vibes, does every party not have a vibe of secrecy about it? Your anecdote about the SF person you met well its just an anecdote. We have all met nut cases. Maybe point me to a SF policy on that and we can discuss real political goals. The SF of the 1920s did rid the 26 counties of unionist but maybe not in the way that you have imagined. Where did they go? They ended up just being part of this country, it was a natural evolution that will also come to be in the north, there is no point in prolonging people's misery.

CrabRevolution

JupiterKid wrote: »

Sorry, I would beg to differ on that view. And less of the patronising and condescending tone please.

Sinn Fein have engaged in tribal sectarian politics themselves at the grassroots level and although they are for sure more progressive on social issues than the DUP (which admittedly wouldn't be hard) there is a definite vibe of secrecy, inner circles operating, a culture of omerta and dismissal of views that differ from their own world view and the future direction of Northern Ireland.

The best hope IMO for the future of NI is the re-growth of the more moderate parties such as the SDLP, UUP and Alliance. Northern Ireland badly needs to move away from tit for tat sectarian politics and all the evidence is that the Shinners engage in it as much as the DUP. The electoral shift to the extremes after the 1998 GFA was a real step backwards for Northern Ireland.

SF may want to be seen as tolerant, modern and progressive but the reality from what I hear and see myself and from my wider family and friends based up North is rather different.

I was also told at a function up North a few years ago by an ardent SF party member that their aim was to rid the North of all Unionists, no ifs or buts.

Northern Ireland these days is sorely lacking politicians of the calibre of the late John Hume, and is all the poorer for it.

This sounds like pretty desperate straw grasping to be honest.

For years people have been able to reassure themselves on any NI topic that they can safely proclaim "They're both as bad as each other" without anyone being able to argue. It's a lovely condescending statement that simplifies the the whole topic of NI.

However, that narrative is falling apart now that only one side is being exposed as being badly out of step with the modern world. While there are some (like yourself) who obviously want to keep the "they're as bad as each other" idea in circulation though, the facts just don't back you up.

The DUP are in word, deed, policy and vote an extremely conservative, sectarian party whose traits have been widely covered in national and international media. Yet the best you can come up with for SF are broad generalisations ("secrecy" and "dismissal of other views"? ) and a Daily Telegraph style "Unnamed figure makes incendiary statement" anecdote that by sheer chance you were around to hear.

JupiterKid

CrabRevolution wrote: »

This sounds like pretty desperate straw grasping to be honest.

For years people have been able to reassure themselves on any NI topic that they can safely proclaim "They're both as bad as each other" without anyone being able to argue. It's a lovely condescending statement that simplifies the the whole topic of NI.

However, that narrative is falling apart now that only one side is being exposed as being badly out of step with the modern world. While there are some (like yourself) who obviously want to keep the "they're as bad as each other" idea in circulation though, the facts just don't back you up.

The DUP are in word, deed, policy and vote an extremely conservative, sectarian party whose traits have been widely covered in national and international media. Yet the best you can come up with for SF are broad generalisations ("secrecy" and "dismissal of other views"? ) and a Daily Telegraph style "Unnamed figure makes incendiary statement" anecdote that by sheer chance you were around to hear.

Hardly straw grabbing as I only form my opinions on what I read, see, and hear. And my opinion is that the quality of politicians in Northern Ireland is currently very poor with little to no real vision and leadership shown.

Of course the Shinners are more progressive than the DUP - that is pretty obvious - but they are still quite a distance away from being able to call themselves a non-sectarian and biased political party without a hidden agenda. In fact, a rise in support for the SDLP and Alliance would probably force both the DUP and SF to make reforms to appeal to the wider electorate.

But as is the way of this forum, no opinion other than the views of those on the extremes seems to be permissible. A complete lack of respect for the opinions of others that differ from - or challenge - their simplistic world view. :rolleyes:

A good reason why I generally avoid this forum which is full of zealots with their circular arguments that ultimately go nowhere.

FrancieBrady

JupiterKid wrote: »

Hardly straw grabbing as I only form my opinions on what I read, see, and hear. And my opinion is that the quality of politicians in Northern Ireland is currently very poor with little to no real vision and leadership shown.

Of course the Shinners are more progressive than the DUP - that is pretty obvious - but they are still quite a distance away from being able to call themselves a non-sectarian and biased political party with a hidden agenda. In fact, a rise in support for the SDLP and Alliance would probably force both the DUP and SF to make reforms to appeal to the wider electorate.

But as is the way of this forum, no opinion other than the views of those on the extremes seems to be permissible. A complete lack of respect for the opinions of others that differ from - or challenge - their simplistic world view. :rolleyes:

A good reason why I generally avoid this forum which is full of zealots with their circular arguments that ultimately go nowhere.

Any luck with the 'tribal and sectarian' policy from SF there Kid?

Fionn1952

JupiterKid wrote: »

Hardly straw grabbing as I only form my opinions on what I read, see, and hear. And my opinion is that the quality of politicians in Northern Ireland is currently very poor with little to no real vision and leadership shown.

Of course the Shinners are more progressive than the DUP - that is pretty obvious - but they are still quite a distance away from being able to call themselves a non-sectarian and biased political party without a hidden agenda. In fact, a rise in support for the SDLP and Alliance would probably force both the DUP and SF to make reforms to appeal to the wider electorate.

But as is the way of this forum, no opinion other than the views of those on the extremes seems to be permissible. A complete lack of respect for the opinions of others that differ from - or challenge - their simplistic world view. :rolleyes:

A good reason why I generally avoid this forum which is full of zealots with their circular arguments that ultimately go nowhere.

By those standards, one could argue that SDLP and UUP are still quite a distance away from being non-sectarian/non biased parties....they just have a bit more of a middle class affectation towards it than SF/DUP.

I'm delighted to see the progress being made towards normalisation of politics in NI, even though it is slow going, but when it comes down to it, votes transferring from DUP/SF to UUP/SDLP are still holding the old Orange and Green formation and doesn't really represent any sort of real progress towards political normalisation in the way the transfers to Alliance do.

jimmycrackcorm

FrancieBrady wrote:

Can you point to a SF policy that is 'tribal and sectarian'?

The poster didn't mention anything about SF policies.

cameramonkey

JupiterKid wrote: »

Hardly straw grabbing as I only form my opinions on what I read, see, and hear. And my opinion is that the quality of politicians in Northern Ireland is currently very poor with little to no real vision and leadership shown.

Of course the Shinners are more progressive than the DUP - that is pretty obvious - but they are still quite a distance away from being able to call themselves a non-sectarian and biased political party without a hidden agenda. In fact, a rise in support for the SDLP and Alliance would probably force both the DUP and SF to make reforms to appeal to the wider electorate.

But as is the way of this forum, no opinion other than the views of those on the extremes seems to be permissible. A complete lack of respect for the opinions of others that differ from - or challenge - their simplistic world view. :rolleyes:

A good reason why I generally avoid this forum which is full of zealots with their circular arguments that ultimately go nowhere.

All the arguments put to you have been polite but firm. I think your opinions have been exposed as lacking in political nous and understanding and harking back to the old British propaganda that they are both as bad as each other, this I believe is a simplistic and facile position. People have put up rational replies to your position and your argument now consists of painting those contributors with the brush of extremism. If you don't like your opinions challenged and would prefer unflinching support why do bother posting here?

FrancieBrady

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

The poster didn't mention anything about SF policies.

He stated that SF where 'tribal and sectarian'.

Where is this in policy...if they are the same as the DUP, who most definitely have tribal, religious and sectarian policies.

AdrianG08

SF are the custodians of equal rights for the LGBT community and the biggest proponents of European Union membership.

I find this gas.

They spotted an opportunity to bury the DUP (rightly so) for their archaic views on same sex issues, but thats all it was, a point scoring exercise.

Likewise being pan European, down South they were euro sceptics up to a few years ago.

I think both sides are as bad as each other, "they did this, so we get to do that" etc...

SF and the DUP/TUV derive their oxygen from sectarianism, and winding each other up. They have no real purpose other than that.

Like another poster, i'd be voting Alliance all the way. At least they actually try and address the issues that exist in Northern Ireland.

The main 2 parties are simply a vote to protest against the other "If I don't vote for DUP/SF then the other crowd will make gains".

Far too many defenders of the earth in that part of the world, Jamie Bryson and the like getting paid to say things that gains them an audience but things they don't fully mean, it just appeals to a certain type of crowd.

Whats their voter turnout like usually up there? Amazed that in 2021 people are still voting DUP and SF to be honest.

The expression Reign in Hell rather than serve in heaven is a great one.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Any luck with the 'tribal and sectarian' policy from SF there Kid?

This is what he said

JupiterKid wrote: »

Sinn Fein have engaged in tribal sectarian politics themselves at the grassroots level.

Let's just start with that fine upstanding Kingsmill bread councillor re-selected by Sinn Fein.

In fact, that is probably enough to prove his point.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

This is what he said



Let's just start with that fine upstanding Kingsmill bread councillor re-selected by Sinn Fein.

In fact, that is probably enough to prove his point.

There's a difference between somebody being sectarian and the partybeing sectarian...evidenced by policy.

I.E. A party isn't a sterling hungry corrupt one just because a few have been caught being corrupt. Nor a thuggish violent pne because somebody swings a glass at somebody.


So when you can point to a 'sectarian or tribal' policy, fire away.

Junkyard Tom

Forget the focus on SF and the DUP as political parties for a second and consider their voters. SF's voter base has grown as the IRA stopped, weapons were decommissioned, policing was accepted, and general normalisation of power-sharing bedded in.

On the other hand, the DUP's voter base grew as it opposed power-sharing, blocked rights, mocked the native culture, made Stormont unworkable, and has delivered Brexit which was a play to roll back the gains of the GFA, now we're looking at daily subtle unionist threats, and balaclavas on the streets while the DUP is silent.

So yes, politics in the north is dysfunctional and secretive (downstream from partition and post-conflict) but the bothsidesism is a convenient method of washing one's hands of laying blame at the feet of political unionism.

Seth Brundle

Can we not derail this thread by talk of SF and their policies and/or grassroots activities?
Surely there are other threads where SF policies can be discussed?

circadian

lurleen lumpkin wrote: »

They've got Edwin Poots. Anything's possible!

From the first page of the thread.

Amazing.

circadian

From what I can tell, amongst my Unionist friends and family the DUP are finished. The brexit fiasco was enough for most but surprisingly for some the DUP jumping on the riots and claiming that Mervyn from Sandy Row gives a **** about the effects of Brexit on farmers and small business was enough.

I know several unionists who would have been UUP voters until more recent years and they come from farming/business backgrounds. As far as they're concerned that no matter how many times they raised issue with brexit, the DUP dismissed it and told them everything will be better for them. The DUP should have backed up what the PSNI stated, the drug gangs weren't happy their gear was getting lifted as a result of brexit checks.

Many Unionists voted DUP in most recent years because they seen votes for other unionist parties as wasted. There are a lot of socially Liberal unionists, believe it or not, many of whom are younger. Now the Union itself is in question and they're asking themselves what means more to them. Is maintaining the Union worth foregoing the social changes they want? After Brexit, often not.

Putting Poots in power was the icing on the cake. They're done for.

Dyr

cameramonkey wrote: »

I think that is rather a facile reading of politics in the North. To lump SF and the DUP into the same category is simplistic. SF have most of the attributes associated with a modern social democratic party, their stance on LGBT issues, women rights and human rights are closer to the Alliance or SDLP. The tendency by people with little knowledge of politics is to say that they are two sides of the same coin, is at best misleading.

No. They're as bad as each other. They have to be or some people start to get very uncomfortable. It would sugges that one side may have a very fundamental problem with the rest of the population of this Island.

Yes, indeed. They have to be as bad as each other, despite the fact that Unionism only ever goes in one direction: more extreme.

FrancieBrady

Pengelly flies the coop.

https://twitter.com/brendanhughes64/status/1403010311821664256

lurleen lumpkin

Christ almighty. Cameo from Ian Óg near the end if you can stomach it.
https://twitter.com/gavreilly/status/1403329529481936899?s=19

pixelburp

Am I just indulging in Confirmation Bias or are most (all?) of those leaving the DUP women? I'm sure it means nothing. Either that or a bunch of professionals who realise the ship is now being steered by an (even more) regressive individual whose record on Women's Rights isn't stellar.

lurleen lumpkin

lurleen lumpkin wrote: »

Christ almighty. Cameo from Ian Óg near the end if you can stomach it.
https://twitter.com/gavreilly/status/1403329529481936899?s=19

Looks like Jr isn’t into temperance like Pops was. Looks like he was full to the brim with porter.

RandomViewer

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Looks like Jr isn’t into temperance like Pops was. Looks like he was full to the brim with porter.

As long as someone else is buying Ian Og will accept

breezy1985

Deleted User wrote: »

Looks like Jr isn’t into temperance like Pops was. Looks like he was full to the brim with porter.

The leg movements were dangerously close to a jig getting off that stage

circadian

breezy1985 wrote: »

The leg movements were dangerously close to a jig getting off that stage

I'm pretty certain that'd tear a hole in the space time continuum.

trashcan

lurleen lumpkin wrote: »

Christ almighty. Cameo from Ian Óg near the end if you can stomach it.
https://twitter.com/gavreilly/status/1403329529481936899?s=19

Oh my, never mind Ian Og, Van the Man making a complete tit of himself there. What a plonker.

breezy1985

trashcan wrote: »

Oh my, never mind Ian Og, Van the Man making a complete tit of himself there. What a plonker.

He has been going full Jim Corr for a number of years now