Arlene, Edwin, her replacement and his replacement as leader of the DUP

gormdubhgorm

Christy42 wrote: »

I mean if Unionists were serious about not wanting the partition they would be fighting for less division between NI but they are normally fighting for more divisions. It is a silly argument. I supported marriage equality and I didn't marry another man when it became law. It is just support for those that did want to.

An Irish act makes sense. They are in Ireland (it is in the name). This does not mean anyone should be forced to speak it. And they will still speak English because it is useful. That does not mean they can't also support the Irish language.

Fair enough, but I really question the motives around the Irish Act - in my eyes I can see through it it has **** all to do with the Irish language in reality.

It is pure symbolism and given NI's history is designed to wipe the other crowds nose in it.
Yeah I know the Unionist's reneged on it after agreeing on it, but what is the real practical difference.

People can already speak the Irish language if they wish. Zero is stopping them. They do NOT need an act to do that.

Maybe someday by just more people speaking Irish we could return to the days when (most) Prostants were not ashamed to?

I view the Acht na Gaeilge in a NI context as a lazy attempt by some to feel Irish. To support it but have no notion of speaking it. How does that help strengthen a language? It is much more practical speaking it.

Michelle O'Neill could start tomorrow. Zoom lessons from Pearse Doherty mar shampla?

Or maybe conduct all SF business 'trí Ghaeilge'. They would pick it up fairly quickly then.

The same thing with Nationalist estates in NI why are they speaking English? Naonrai's (Irish playschools) could be created and kids could be sent to them.

Yet we have this 'Irish Act' farce. You could not make it up.

breezy1985

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

The above poster was correct and it clearly has hit a nerve. Whether the poster is a 'twisted Unionist' or not as you say.

Mary Lou a woman born and educated in the ROI (she calls it 'this state') in a free Ireland which declared a Republic in the 1948 Act and had been the Free State 23 years prior.

Yet Ireland still has not managed to get a the majority of its populace to speak the Irish language at any high fluent level. There is only about 1-2% that do so.

When you add in the fact that Mary Lou styles herself as a proud Republican the fact her Irish is so weak is even more perplexing. And does not do much for the image she is trying to portray. Irishness, Irish heritage, Republicanism, Gaels and so on.

What is Mary Lou's excuse?
Michael Martin has miles better Irish than she does for example. Really natural nice flow.

Looking at some SF who grew up in Republican families in NI:

Michelle O Neill virtually no Irish, inrocally maybe on a par with Gregory Campbell - 'Curry ma Yogurt a Canna Coca Coyler'

Gerry Adams another 'proud Republican' has really shaky Irish. At times he even uses full English sentences!

The real irony is that the phrase 'Tiocfaidh ár lá' is grammatically incorrect Irish based on an English idiom. Invented by clowns during the troubles. Yet many of these clowns think/pretend an Irish act is going to magically make their Irish better?

It is a farce let's call a spade a spade.

Republicans are not obliged to be good at languages. I am a supporter of the bilingual situation in Ireland despite being useless at the language mostly due to being feckless in school.


Adams or anyone else being bad at Irish is no reason not to protect it and encourage it

McMurphy

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

The above poster was correct and it clearly has hit a nerve. Whether the poster is a 'twisted Unionist' or not as you say.

.

Honestly, I did not read a word of that long winded post after this sentence, so no point coming back with something else from within it.


No, the poster was not "correct" nor did they "hit a nerve", let's look at the gist of what he or she was espousing.

Because someone isn't fluent in a language, means they shouldn't be pushing for rights or legislation about that language.

Therein lies my analogy, straight people should have no business meddling in legislation surrounding the LGBT community, non members of ethnic minorities should have no business getting involved with the rights and welfare of ethnic minority groups, men shouldn't be allowed to vote on women's rights, and so on and so forth.

It was a brainfart, and was rightfully called out as one.

Fann Linn

Let's call a spade a spade here. Out of all the parties in NI, there is only one party opposing this and that's the party of bigots which are the DUP.

Speedline

Look what happens when you get equal rights after 15 years of waiting. The unionists start flinging their toys out of the pram. Some of the recent posts here are embarrassing if I'm honest. Cringeworthy.

Hamsterchops

McMurphy wrote: »

It was a brainfart, and was rightfully called out as one.

A brainfart, or do you now agree with me and the gist of my point?

Dyr

Fann Linn wrote: »

Coveney would disagree with you, Gorm. He states that the language act is symbolism and recognition of the fact that Irish people actually live in NI. I wouldn't be a blueshirt supporter but credit where it's due, this is the best description of why the Language Act and its implementation is important.

Sure look, lads like GDG have a problem accepting that Ireland is Irish, never mind Norn Iron.

ArthurDayne

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Fair enough, but I really question the motives around the Irish Act - in my eyes I can see through it it has **** all to do with the Irish language in reality.

It is pure symbolism and given NI's history is designed to wipe the other crowds nose in it.
Yeah I know the Unionist's reneged on it after agreeing on it, but what is the real practical difference.

People can already speak the Irish language if they wish. Zero is stopping them. They do NOT need an act to do that.

I view the Acht na Gaeilge in a NI context as a lazy attempt by some to feel Irish. To support it but have no notion of speaking it. How does that help strengthen a language. It is much more practical speaking it.

Michelle O'Neill could start tomorrow. Zoom lessons from Pearse Doherty mar shampla?

Or maybe conduct all SF business 'trí Ghaeilge'. They would pick it up fairly quickly then.

The same thing with Nationalist estates in NI why are they speaking English? Naonrai's (Irish playschools) could be created and kids could be sent to them.

Yet we have this 'Irish Act' farce. You could not make it up.

Do you personally know any Irish speakers from the North out of interest (me being one myself) — or people from the North who have any interest in learning the language or preventing it from dying?

If you do, did they tell you this is what the Irish Language Act is about?

If you don’t, then when you say that you can “see through it”, are you simply projecting your own stereotypes that Northerners simply live and breathe to beat the other side all the time — or are you just kind of just pulling it all out of a particular bodily oscailt?

McMurphy

Hamsterchops wrote: »

A brainfart, or do you now agree with me and the gist of my point?

A brianfart. A ridiculous post and you should feel embarrassed about it.

gormdubhgorm

breezy1985 wrote: »

Republicans are not obliged to be good at languages. I am a supporter of the bilingual situation in Ireland despite being useless at the language mostly due to being feckless in school.


Adams or anyone else being bad at Irish is no reason not to protect it and encourage it

So pure symbolism in other words **** all practical use to speaking the language and strengthening it?

I edited the post above and showed a talk about Protestantism and the Irish language.

Before politics on both sides hijacked it.

As I said if people were really serious about the Irish language they would be speaking it more.

The Act Irish is actually an embarrassment to the ROI and NI because it serves to highlight how one of the cornerstones of Republicanism have been an absolute failure. Nothing to to with military might or strategic military guerrilla warfare. Just laziness and hypocrisy.

Hamsterchops

McMurphy wrote: »

A brianfart. A ridiculous post and you should feel embarrassed about it.

Embarrassed no, not at all.

You must have missed #1349.

Fann Linn

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

So pure symbolism in other words **** all practical use to speaking the language and strengthening it?

I edited the post above and showed a talk about Protestantism and the Irish language.

Before politics on both sides hijacked it.

As I said if people were really serious about the Irish language they would be speaking it more.

The Act Irish is actually an embarrassment to the ROI and NI because it serves to highlight how one of the cornerstones of Republicanism have been an absolute failure. Nothing to to with military might or strategic military guerrilla warfare. Just laziness and hypocrisy.

All parties in Westminster are in favour of this bar one. The DUP.
All parties in the Republic are in favour of this.
All parties in Stormont are in favour of this bar one. See above.

Looks from this side of the fence Gorm, that you & the DUP are the ones that are outta step in this argument.

gormdubhgorm

ArthurDayne wrote: »

Do you personally know any Irish speakers from the North out of interest (me being one myself) — or people from the North who have any interest in learning the language or preventing it from dying?

If you do, did they tell you this is what the Irish Language Act is about?

If you don’t, then when you say that you can “see through it”, are you simply projecting your own stereotypes that Northerners simply live and breathe to beat the other side all the time — or are you just kind of just pulling it all out of a particular bodily oscailt?

Not NI but I know a few from Ulster - Donegal. One fluent speaker said he would not wear a fainne because of the association with Republicanism/IRA up in Ulster. Thoin in the word by the way.

Yeah I do know what Irish Act is about, I have read it and viewed the video above with an Ulster Rep from CnG v Gregory Campbell.

And I think that both sides have 'weaponized' the Irish language and are using it for ulterior motives. It is NOT for the benefit of the Irish language that is a smokescreen. It is the usual NI politics trick there is always an undercurrent bubbling underneath. The real motives.

BluePlanet

If the British and NI Executive would have implemented the language component of the GFA 20 years ago, then the issue wouldn't have lingered around to become a political football.

Big Ears

Speedline wrote: »

Look what happens when you get equal rights after 15 years of waiting. The unionists start flinging their toys out of the pram. Some of the recent posts here are embarrassing if I'm honest. Cringeworthy.

I think it's much more fair to say "the DUP" rather than "Unionists".

For all we know a majority of unionists could be in favour of the act so parties can get back to real politics and stop the usual nonsense.

Even if this was a weapon being used by Republicans, it's one the DUP agreed to implement. The fact that they refuse to adhere to their promise means Westminster were right to intervene in an effort to keep things moving up there.
Any stalling of Stormont as a result of that is squarely at the DUP's feet.

breezy1985

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

So pure symbolism in other words **** all practical use to speaking the language and strengthening it?

I edited the post above and showed a talk about Protestantism and the Irish language.

Before politics on both sides hijacked it.

As I said if people were really serious about the Irish language they would be speaking it more.

The Act Irish is actually an embarrassment to the ROI and NI because it serves to highlight how one of the cornerstones of Republicanism have been an absolute failure. Nothing to to with military might or strategic military guerrilla warfare. Just laziness and hypocrisy.

As I said some people are just not good at picking up languages by book. Ide love to speak both Irish and French but jut like my maths I cant get my head round it


You dont just click your fingers and be good at it and opposing the Irish language act like you do is certainly not going to help the people who want to try learn

gormdubhgorm

Fann Linn wrote: »

All parties in Westminster are in favour of this bar one. The DUP.
All parties in the Republic are in favour of this.
All parties in Stormont are in favour of this bar one. See above.

Looks from this side of the fence Gorm, that you & the DUP are the ones that are outta step in this argument.

Of course the ROI and Stormont are in favour because it sounds good it is symbolism a pretence at progression.

The DUP just have the balls to say it is bollix in there own way. Because it gets them votes from their electorate.

I say it is bollix not to get votes like the DUP. Merely from a practical point of view as it will not really help the Irish language from any real practical viewpoint. The number of Irish speakers and standard of Irish speakers will remain the same with or without the Irish language Act.

It is like the complete ludicrous situation of Irish becoming an offical language of the EU 15 years ago.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/irish-becomes-official-eu-working-language-1.455241

It did nothing practically for the language numbers spoken etc.

You then had the farical situation where Irish language speakers had to be hired in EU posts to translate the few words of Irish that might be rarely occasionally used!

https://www.4ie.ie/irish-news/255152/irish-language-speakers-urged-to-apply-for-eu-translator-posts

https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/faq/21/which-languages-are-in-use-in-the-parliament

Think of what a cushy/boring job translating Irish for an MEP in the EP is?

A few words used every so often? Maybe even less than Stormont.

I can't find the figures of the wa but I saw them once it was gas.

So as I said originally there is an awful lot of posturing and bollixology around the Irish language which do feck all to improve it on on a practical level.
Symbolism is the height of it.

rockatansky

May be a good time that the Pubs are opening back up. The Prisoner Aid Collection Buckets may need to be recommissioned in the near future.

ArthurDayne

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Not NI but I know a few from Ulster - Donegal. One fluent speaker said he would not wear a fainne because of the association with Republicanism/IRA up in Ulster. Thoin in the word by the way.

Yeah I do know what Irish Act is about, I have read it and viewed the video above with an Ulster Rep from CnG v Gregory Campbell.

And I think that both sides have 'weaponized' the Irish language and are using it for ulterior motives. It is NOT for the benefit of the Irish language that is a smokescreen. It is the usual NI politics trick there is always an undercurrent bubbling underneath. The real motives.

Right — so you don’t know any Irish speakers from the jurisdiction to which the Act relates. So your ability to “see through it” is what exactly? Clairvoyance or kinda just makey-uppy pretending to know what you’re talking about?

As for your friend from Donegal, I went to school in Newry — a staunchly Nationalist / Republican town. When I got my gold Fáinne I was proud as hell. Loved it. And yet despite being in this big Republican area, the Fáinne was never spun to me nor did I ever see it as anything to do with politics. I loved the language, loved the history of it, loved the old music, loved going up to the Gaeltacht — and I made lots of lifelong friends through those experiences. When I got off the school bus in the Loyalist town I lived just beside, I didn’t run around rubbing my Fáinne in anyone’s face nor did I go to bed at night beaming from ear to ear at how much I had “stuck it” to the Prods and contributed to the destruction of Ulster Protestantism. I enjoyed Irish because I enjoyed it — as do many others.

You have a wildly generalised view of northerners and you water them down to mere caricatures who are incapable of any thought or motivation that is any more nuanced than “Brits Out” or “No Surrender”. Your friend can associate the Fáinne with the IRA, the Viet Cong or Lord Voldemort for all I care — but why don’t you come back when you actually speak to Irish speakers and those interested in the Irish language in the actual place you seem to pose yourself as knowing so much about?

breezy1985

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

You then had the farical situation where Irish language speakers had to be hired in EU posts to translate the few words of Irish that might be rarely occasionally used!

https://www.4ie.ie/irish-news/255152/irish-language-speakers-urged-to-apply-for-eu-translator-posts

https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/faq/21/which-languages-are-in-use-in-the-parliament

Think of what a cushy/boring job translating Irish for an MEP in the EP is?

A few words used every so often? Maybe even less than Stormont.

I can't find the figures of the wa but I saw them once it was gas.

You would think the DUP would be all for this as the entire NI economy which they are in charge of is based on paying people for pointless nonsense civil service jobs

Dyr

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

And I think that both sides have 'weaponized' the Irish language and are using it for ulterior motives. It is NOT for the benefit of the Irish language that is a smokescreen. It is the usual NI politics trick there is always an undercurrent bubbling underneath. The real motives.

The old both-sides-are-as-bad-as-each-other defence much beloved as a last excuse for whatever indefensible nonsense loyalism is up to at any moment

Just admit to youtself that you have a problem with Irish culture as you don't like the notion that the Irish are different to the occupants of the neighboring Island. You think it's all maladroit and backwards. We all know, come out of the closet

political analyst

https://www.rte.ie/news/2021/0619/1229069-rally-newtownards-protocol-dup/

Givan will have to resign as first minister when Donaldson becomes party leader. Donaldson will have to nominate someone as interim first minister until Donaldson himself joins the Assembly after he leaves Westminster.

Why would Donaldson not be willing to tolerate Givan until next summer?

Why are supposed unionists turning on their own?

Fann Linn

political analyst wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/news/2021/0619/1229069-rally-newtownards-protocol-dup/

Givan will have to resign as first minister when Donaldson becomes party leader. Donaldson will have to nominate someone as interim first minister until Donaldson himself joins the Assembly after he leaves Westminster.

Why would Donaldson not be willing to tolerate Givan until next summer?

Why are supposed unionists turning on their own?

Approx 700 turned out for the protest in Newtownards from a pop of 28,000 approx, ordinary decent unionists arent too bothered by this, only the empty vessels and bigots.

FrancieBrady

BluePlanet wrote: »

If the British and NI Executive would have implemented the language component of the GFA 20 years ago, then the issue wouldn't have lingered around to become a political football.

Nobody's playing football with them. SF sidelined them and the DUPers have been busy scoring own goals since.

FrancieBrady

Bambi wrote: »

The old both-sides-are-as-bad-as-each-other defence much beloved as a last excuse for whatever indefensible nonsense loyalism is up to at any moment

Just admit to youtself that you have a problem with Irish culture as you don't like the notion that the Irish are different to the occupants of the neighboring Island. You think it's all maladroit and backwards. We all know, come out of the closet

I've quit reading Gormdubh's posts. His inferiority complex causes me too much cringe tbh.

votecounts

Assuming Givan is gone as FM, you would assume there will be fresh elections as SF simply cannot trust the dup which I assume will coincide with the marching season. If the DUP cannot stomach a Language Act, it will be fun and games if they have to nominate Michelle O'Neill as FM.
If this is to be avoided then the DUP will have to live up their prior agreements. The electorate will know who brought down Stormont and that is the "Never, Never, Never" Party.
Moderate Unionists will have a decision to make, do they want to live in a shared Island with every citizen given equal rights. Can you imagine the reaction of Unionists if they were told they could not march anywhere, fly the Union Jack as some of theses are seen by certain people as sectarian symbols

Jizique

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

So pure symbolism in other words **** all practical use to speaking the language and strengthening it?

I edited the post above and showed a talk about Protestantism and the Irish language.

Before politics on both sides hijacked it.

As I said if people were really serious about the Irish language they would be speaking it more.

The Act Irish is actually an embarrassment to the ROI and NI because it serves to highlight how one of the cornerstones of Republicanism have been an absolute failure. Nothing to to with military might or strategic military guerrilla warfare. Just laziness and hypocrisy.

That is truly offensive - the Irish language should not ever be considered a part of republicanism

Strazdas

political analyst wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/news/2021/0619/1229069-rally-newtownards-protocol-dup/

Givan will have to resign as first minister when Donaldson becomes party leader. Donaldson will have to nominate someone as interim first minister until Donaldson himself joins the Assembly after he leaves Westminster.

Why would Donaldson not be willing to tolerate Givan until next summer?

Why are supposed unionists turning on their own?

According to that article, Donaldson intends resigning as a Westminster MP and becoming First Minister at Stormont himself. Looks like he doesn't like Givan though and regards him as a Poots man.

breezy1985

Strazdas wrote: »

According to that article, Donaldson intends resigning as a Westminster MP and becoming First Minister at Stormont himself. Looks like he doesn't like Givan though and regards him as a Poots man.

Can you be FM and not an MLA ?

Faugheen

Strazdas wrote: »

According to that article, Donaldson intends resigning as a Westminster MP and becoming First Minister at Stormont himself. Looks like he doesn't like Givan though and regards him as a Poots man.

First Minister pays more, so can absolutely see Jeffrey wanting it for himself.

Could possibly see Arlene resigning her seat and Donaldson being co-opted in that constituency.