Arlene, Edwin, her replacement and his replacement as leader of the DUP

gormdubhgorm

Strazdas wrote: »

And they won't be able to get rid of that either. The only way the IP could be scrapped is if GB rejoins or moves closer to the Single Market.

I know it is off topic but this English fella did a good discussion of that in relation to how Australia and Britain have made a new trade deal v the IP.

A far more serious and practical issue if the ILA has taken pushing over two decades and is still dragging on.

The IP messing could take god knows how long.

FrancieBrady

UDAWINNER wrote: »

Where is this on the Unionist side, it's always their way or the high way

The DUP are the 'NEVER NEVER NEVER, ah well sure, go on' party. Like the GFA they resisted also, they will be demanding the IP protects them if you give them time

golfball37

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

That is not the same corrolly at all a logical fallacy. Unlike sexual orientation a language can be learnt/practiced by anyone. Even Linda Ervine. People are born with a sexual orientation that they cannot change.

The bit that irks me is many on the UI side of the NI fence who are pro-ILA do not literally practice what they preach. In other words they put no practical effort in with it. Linda Ervine really shows them up and she from the Unionist side!

Equality is chased down on behalf of minorities . Michelle O Neill is under no obligation to learn the language and isn’t hypocritical if she chooses not to. Someone has to fight for the small amount of Irish speakers in NI, I don’t care what their motivations are but I’m glad sf are one of the 3 big parties doing so.

FrancieBrady

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I know it is off topic but this English fella did a good discussion of that in relation to how Australia and Britain have made a new trade deal v the IP.

A far more serious and practical issue if the ILA has taken pushing over two decades and is still dragging on.

The IP messing could take god knows how long.

There is no Aus/UK deal...yet. Anything could happen to scupper it.

Speedline

FrancieBrady wrote: »

There is no Aus/UK deal...yet. Anything could happen to scupper it.

If there is a deal, I hope the Aussies aren't relying on the brits to actually honour it. :pac:

Fann Linn

firemansam4 wrote: »

It is a sad reflection on the people of Ireland that many here who consider themselves as Irish would be happy to see the Irish language diminish.
I may not support all of what SF stands for but on this issue I am grateful that they are fighting to get this act inacted and hopefully help to revive the Irish language further in The north.

The crazy thing is that the more that Unionists push against these kind of things and try and keep a hard line. The more support a UI will gain within the Catholic community and people who consider themselves as Irish.
(For instance, People who dont want to lose the benefits of NI staying in the UK like having the NHS ect but would still like to hold onto an Irish identity.)

Justine McCarthy in this morning's Sunday Times calls these people 'the Praetorian guard of little Irelanders' who run around with the 'don't frighten the horses mentality'.

Praetorian Guard have a legion on boards judging by some of the posts in this thread and others.

Jizique

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Compromise will have to be reached that both sides can agree on as simple as that.

It stood out to me that when the presenter of this programme as the guy from CnaG what Unionist would get in return for an ILA. He went on the defensive saying it is not his decision to make. Despite previously speaking of the Irish

Language in general terms such as a 'shared future' 'litmus test' as so on.
He could very quickly go into his I am not a politician mode when asked a question he would not like to answer.

Campbell's retort was that the Irish Language is not 'disadvantaged' and the devolved institution never agreed to it. Campbell was rightly stumped when told that the British government could bring it in on their own without them.

However, Campbell correctly pointed out that the Irish language was politicised unlike other languages in other parts of the UK. That is the fault of two sides imo not just one he is blaming.

Approving what Campbell said is a bit like saying the GAA should be blocked and banned because it is politicized as only one community are interested in it

FrancieBrady

Fann Linn wrote: »

Justine McCarthy in this morning's Sunday Times calls these people 'the Praetorian guard of little Irelanders' who run around with the 'don't frighten the horses mentality'.

Praetorian Guard have a legion on boards judging by some of the posts in this thread and others.

Betrayed by the leader of FG of all people, who has decided to jump on the UI bandwagon before it is too late.

UDAWINNER

https://twitter.com/timmckane/status/1406549570847449089

A good tweet as all the Unionists care about is that they are superior to Nationalists and they only get what want. Marches, Flags, Brexit, Burning Tricolours, etc

Fann Linn

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Betrayed by the leader of FG of all people, who has decided to jump on the UI bandwagon before it is too late.

Only a few weeks back they were calling SF irresponsible for mentioning UI. Now that they're dropping like a stone and a by-election is underway they've jumped aboard.

FrancieBrady

Fann Linn wrote: »

Only a few weeks back they were calling SF irresponsible for mentioning UI. Now that they're dropping like a stone and a by-election is underway they've jumped aboard.

They got badly burned trying to control when the UI question would enter public discourse. They thought 'reaching out' and bringing the DUP into the tent would do that. But they got badly bitten when the DUP turned on them too.
The LLC, whon the DUP give succour to are now physically threatening Leo and other Irush TD'S and officials.
The worm turns

Blanco100

UDAWINNER wrote: »

https://twitter.com/timmckane/status/1406549570847449089

A good tweet as all the Unionists care about is that they are superior to Nationalists and they only get what want. Marches, Flags, Brexit, Burning Tricolours, etc

Hard line unionists don't want their people to be well educated for a fear they will be more liberal as a result.

These "loyalist community leaders" (Former paramilitaries and mouth pieces like Bryson, Holmes etc...) only have an audience with particular classes in the North.

Used to be the nationalist communities starved of educational opportunities but it's the opposite now.

breezy1985

UDAWINNER wrote: »

https://twitter.com/timmckane/status/1406549570847449089

A good tweet as all the Unionists care about is that they are superior to Nationalists and they only get what want. Marches, Flags, Brexit, Burning Tricolours, etc

I really don't like the image of Edwin Poots or Sammy Wilson trying to make me feel good

Heighway61

1985: ULSTER SAYS NO!
1995: ULSTER SAYS NO!
2005: ULSTER SAYS NO!
2015: ULSTER SAYS NO!
2025: ULSTER SAYS Oh, fcuk!

breezy1985

Jizique wrote: »

Approving what Campbell said is a bit like saying the GAA should be blocked and banned because it is politicized as only one community are interested in it

I wonder would the unionists here on boards or in the DUP feel that the orange marches should be disbanded because sure only a small portion of the country attends or knows how to march properly and is not just doing it for symbolism. Would they feel that something cultural like the orange parades have been overly political

Kermit.de.frog

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Who is engaging in 'ransom politics' again?


https://twitter.com/Independent_ie/status/1406586385281302533

If they called an election this year the DUP would be heavily beaten. Like Turkeys voting for Christmas.

Dyr

breezy1985 wrote: »

I wonder would the unionists here on boards or in the DUP feel that the orange marches should be disbanded because sure only a small portion of the country attends or knows how to march properly and is not just doing it for symbolism. Would they feel that something cultural like the orange parades have been overly political

They're not really fluent with their instruments either so...

joe40

Heighway61 wrote: »

1985: ULSTER SAYS NO!
1995: ULSTER SAYS NO!
2005: ULSTER SAYS NO!
2015: ULSTER SAYS NO!
2025: ULSTER SAYS Oh, fcuk!

The irony is, what will copper fasten partition and make a border poll very unlikely is what the GFA did.
Allow nationalist to feel Irish, sport language, no visible border, equitable standard of living etc.
I think all those things take priority over idealistic attachment to UI for many nationalists.

Before the Brexit vote there was very little agitation for a UI. Things had settled into a comfortable status quo for many in the North.

briany

joe40 wrote: »

Before the Brexit vote there was very little agitation for a UI. Things had settled into a comfortable status quo for many in the North.

The status quo was comfortable in the same way as a volcano is dormant. Looks peaceful, but there things bubbling below the surface. There was a quiet simmering anger in the general Unionist community, due to what they felt was a slow erosion of their culture and traditions through things like the diversion of parade routes and not flying the Union Jack over City Hall every day. And, yes, I know the whole line about equality seeming like oppression to the erstwhile oppressors, but it doesn't really change the net result - a malaise about the inevitable direction NI seemed to be drifting.



As a reaction, the DUP snatched at Brexit desperately, but they became so myopic about it that they've just embarrassed themselves, and set their own particular cause back a good long way. They're in quicksand, and if they want to save themselves, they'll need to stop struggling first.

FrancieBrady

briany wrote: »

The status quo was comfortable in the same way as a volcano is dormant. Looks peaceful, but there things bubbling below the surface. There was a quiet simmering anger in the general Unionist community, due to what they felt was a slow erosion of their culture and traditions through things like the diversion of parade routes and not flying the Union Jack over City Hall every day. And, yes, I know the whole line about equality seeming like oppression to the erstwhile oppressors, but it doesn't really change the net result - a malaise about the inevitable direction NI seemed to be drifting.



As a reaction, the DUP snatched at Brexit desperately, but they became so myopic about it that they've just embarrassed themselves, and set their own particular cause back a good long way. They're in quicksand, and if they want to save themselves, they'll need to stop struggling first.

Not to mention the uncaring and ignorant attitude of Britain over Brexit. They simply don't care and that is having an effect on unionist confidence in themselves.
The foolishness of partition came back to bite it's two architects hard.

Granadino

When one of the main issues is the Irish language, the native language of the island, then that tells you the mindset you are dealing with with some unionists/loyalists. If they have an issue with the native language of the island, when they themselves are descendents of planters, then that tells you the mindset you are dealing with it.

gormdubhgorm

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

No middle of the road. I could converse that is about it. Written Irish would be a disaster. Reading would be shaky. But I do try and improve on my vocabulary on a very regular basis bit by bit in my own ways. It is fairly easy to do in this day and age with focloir.ie, tuairisc.ie, RnaG and TG4 etc.

But the problem I have is when you reach a plateau at non-native level it is difficult to make the jump up a level unless you are completely immersed for a long period. Or take further education.

I find the core group of those in the Irish Language community in Ireland to be very fond of symbolism. But ignore practical realities a lot of the time. A lot of what is done looks good on paper, but does little on the ground for the spread and growth of the Irish language. Hungary managed to revive a language in 100 years, Ireland is still fluting around with theirs during the same period.

Fair play to you for going to the effort to learn the language. But, equally, should the same credit not be given to Gerry Adams, and anyone else who has put in the effort?



I'm a native speaker - learning Irish was easy for me. I have a great deal of respect for those who had to work hard to learn it.


As to your difficulty at reaching a plateau, I hear you
But, if you think for one minute that taking further education will teach to you speak with the "blas" of native speakers, I would have to disagree - vehemently!


I've recently had a look at the Irish language coursework for a Masters degree in primary education - and I honestly didn't know whether to laugh, or cry.


There was lots of emphasis on acamedic writing for writing a thesis - and not a word about how best to actually teach the language to 4-12 year olds. I kid you not.
The question is - how much academic writing for third level education do they expect from even the 12 year olds? The answer being - none.


So, instead of complaining that legislation didn't adequately address poor standards of Irish among many of the popuation, maybe we shoud take a hard look at the education system - because, right now, with the exception of the Gaelscoileanna, it's pathetic in so many ways.


However, without legislation to protect the language, I woud argue things would be much worse.
The truth is, Britain set out to destroy our language and culture, and pandering to those who do not want to see it revived will only make it more difficult for those who genuinely want to learn the language.
It doesn't matter what SFs motivation is - or what you believe it to be - the fact remains that there is a legal agreement in place. That agreement is there to facilitate those who want to learn Irish, not for SFs benefit.
They should be allowed to learn their native language. There's a legal agreement in place giving them that right. That's as simple as it is.

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Don't worry a deal with be reached following a long impasse as usual in NI politics after Stormont is brought down for another while.
As Michael Martin brilliantly once put it the 'choreographed conversation of NI politics.' I think that sums it up.

No doubt one side will pretend to give a damn about the Irish Language and the other will pretend the Ulster Scots is a language and not a dialect. The two will probably get sandwiched in some piece of paper at some deadline. As a a compromise.

If there is a GE over this issue and the DUP increase in mandate what will happen then? One side of the electorate will have clearly spoken
Circle keeps turning?

If there is a GE on this issue results in lower mandate for the DUP then it would be an indicator that NI is ready for some slight changes.

No matter what the result I would like to know what are the chances of Michelle trying to learn a language she is 'proud' of as the leader of her crew in NI.
It would be at least an example of someone showing leadership and taking practical action. Making an real effort. Do Michelle O'Neill's children speak any Irish in the home I wonder? Just thinking out loud.

A GE would make absolutely no difference. The agreement has been reached. If the DUP, or A.N Other refuse to implement Acht na Gaeilge, then the British Government will ensure it is enacted. It's that simple.
It makes no difference who throws their toys out of the pram - Acht na Gaeilge will be enacted.

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I know a 'deal' was reached and reneged on by Poots in a speech (ironically) well over a decade ago.

Poots did a 180 on it now and it cost him his job.

If the DUP go into a GE as a result of this issue under Donaldson and increase/maintain their mandate. It will be a clear sign that the largest proportion of the Unionist electorate do not want an ILA as is proposed, or want it to be overhauled. And surely based on the principle of democracy it will have to be listened to.

Absolutely not. The problem is that Democratic principles have been completely ignored by the DUP for many years by failing to enact Acht na Gaeilge - unless you think DUP supporters have a greater Democratic mandate than the whole Island, when it voted in favour of the GFA?

downcow

breezy1985 wrote: »

I wonder would the unionists here on boards or in the DUP feel that the orange marches should be disbanded because sure only a small portion of the country attends or knows how to march properly and is not just doing it for symbolism. Would they feel that something cultural like the orange parades have been overly political

Unionists do not want to block anything. You make a good analogy. Every unionist would be delighted if Irish Culture and language got exactly the same support and rights as Ulster-scots / Ulster-British culture

UDAWINNER

downcow wrote: »

Unionists do not want to block anything. You make a good analogy. Every unionist would be delighted if Irish Culture and language got exactly the same support and rights as Ulster-scots / Ulster-British culture

You do realise that the DUP have said they will collapse the executive if they don't get of the ILA, sounds like blocking to me. Same as the other Unionist Parties. Never give an inch to nationalists, but hey they'll be burning tricolours in a few weeks as Unionists will see nothing wrong.
What part of Ulster/British culture are you missing? Not been allowed to hang offensive Union Jacks everywhere, march where ye are not wanted. You've got everything, it's time to give something to Nationalists, hell ye still have a protestant police force.

breezy1985

downcow wrote: »

Unionists do not want to block anything. You make a good analogy. Every unionist would be delighted if Irish Culture and language got exactly the same support and rights as Ulster-scots / Ulster-British culture

The same as Scottish and Welsh culture and language too I assume ?

Penfailed

downcow wrote: »

Unionists do not want to block anything.

Did you type that with a straight face?

UDAWINNER

.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Unionists do not want to block anything.

Has to be asked, what planet are you on.

Are you saying Unionists will grant implementation if nationalists behave themselves?

This is how you are viewed...full stop really.
https://twitter.com/JoeBrolly1993/status/1406533336865120260

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

Every unionist would be delighted if Irish Culture and language got exactly the same support and rights as Ulster-scots / Ulster-British culture

Unionists would absolutely shit-the-bed if Republicans demanded exact parity on marching, statues/monuments, naming of roads/streets, airtime on BBC/UTV and so on.

Can you imagine spectacular Unionist 'emotional Chernobyl' meltdown that would ensue if the SDLP and SF teamed up and released a manifesto demanding the above?

Fann Linn

downcow wrote: »

Unionists do not want to block anything. You make a good analogy. Every unionist would be delighted if Irish Culture and language got exactly the same support and rights as Ulster-scots / Ulster-British culture

Pray tell, what's the problem so, with Poots being hauled in over agreeing to it?
Do tell.