Arlene, Edwin, her replacement and his replacement as leader of the DUP

Strazdas

ArthurDayne wrote: »

Irish has never stopped being spoken in the North, it simply has been replaced by English as a first language. There is marked difference between that and a bald statement that the language ceased to be spoken and was “artificially revived”.

In any case, it seems quite significantly incomplete to ignore the historical context. The Irish language was subject to cultural attack by the English, and in an impoverished society its uses from a commercial perspective were diminished — and thus over time Irish society just did not have the luxury to avoid the practical necessity of speaking English. Eventually, on the creation of Northern Ireland, the State was hostile to Irish people and Irishness in general, while Catholics struggled to get jobs. Overall, a mixture of cultural genocide and poverty were key drivers of the decline of Irish — and simply made the language a kind of unnecessary luxury.

Also, wouldn't attempts to eliminate the language also be "artificial"? It works both ways, it's clearly not a language that went into natural decline but one that came under attack.

In any event, revival of languages is happening all over the world and on every continent. People are very aware of the cultural significance of language (often tied in with national identity) and of the importance of keeping languages alive.

Fionn1952

blanch152 wrote: »

Lads, let's get real here. Native speakers of Irish died out in the North during the 1970s.

The language was subsequently artificially revived. Only difference with Ulster-Scots is that Irish got a headstart on revival.

There are no Gaeltacht regions in Northern Ireland because they all stopped speaking the language.

Once more, a complete and utter (likely deliberate) misunderstanding of reality.

For one, it was actually well into the 80s that the last native speakers of some NI dialects of Irish actually died (contrary to your point, dialects predate partition and there is no such thing as NI Irish, there were in fact many dialects across Ulster.)

Secondly, that's not the same as saying that there were no Irish speakers in the North; for many (myself included), we learned the Donegal dialect, much like most Dubs learn Connemara Irish rather than their own local dialects.

Thirdly, the fact that there are no Gaeltacht regions in NI is also not the same as saying there are no Irish speakers in the North. We never stopped speaking the language, despite the efforts from certain quarters.

Fourthly, perhaps if you dropped your own blatant bias, you might consider a few possible reasons that the more local dialects of Irish across NI died out, and given their cultural value, appreciate that perhaps something like the Irish Language Act, if enacted many years ago would've prevented the loss of these dialects and acknowledge that (as with any dialect), we're a poorer society for having lost it.

I wonder would you have the same conversation with someone from a Jewish background about the efforts to revive the spoken Hebrew language?

You're just blatantly trolling at this point. You discuss the NI situation with all the tact and understanding of someone who has never been there and instead built their entire opinion based off a handful of half read and misunderstood articles from The Newsletter.

realdanbreen

Speedsie wrote: »

Indeed! Still Queen Elizabeth II has nothing to do with the CoI in either RoI or NI, which people seem to forget.
She is head of the Church of England, which has nothing to do with the running of the Church of Ireland.

Anyway, ultimate fence sitters Anglican, Via Media in all things. Neither Protestant nor Catholic, but somewhere in between.....

TBF any adults who have not yet grown out of religion would do well to take example from the under 30's who simply don't go along with any religious baloney.

downcow

breezy1985 wrote: »

So you are equally against all government funding of sports and arts I assume ?

I absolutely agree that excessive funding going to areas of interest and culture that a few politicians think should be promoted is entirely wrong.
Funding should be based on interest and participation levels and should be equitable based on transparent criteria

downcow

breezy1985 wrote: »

The act was passed in 2011 when Welsh speakers were 20% and has risen to 30% since helped greatly by a boom in Welsh language schools post act.
Which all bodes well for the ILA

Does anyone know what percentage of Roi population speak Irish?

RobbieTheRobber

downcow wrote: »

Does anyone know what percentage of Roi population speak Irish?

39.8% of the Irish population as per the 2016 Census

The total number of persons (aged 3 and over) who could speak Irish in April 2016 was 1,761,420, representing 39.8 per cent of the population. This is a decrease of 13,017 on the 2011 figure of 1,774,437. More females than males identified themselves as being able to speak Irish with 968,777 female speakers (55%) compared with 792,643 males (45%), a pattern repeated from previous censuses (excluding not stated).

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-cp10esil/p10esil/ilg/

Seth Brundle

downcow wrote: »

I absolutely agree that excessive funding going to areas of interest and culture that a few politicians think should be promoted is entirely wrong.
Funding should be based on interest and participation levels and should be equitable based on transparent criteria

So anything that doesn't have massive interest should not receive funding?
You can't operate funding that way. So many things will receive no interest of participation until they are developed following funding.

I don't want to make this about cycling but this is a straight forward example: take for example the concept of off-road cycle paths. Currently bugger all people cycle because of the dangers of cycling amongst traffic (and the traditional cycle lanes are in reality dangerous).
If you make it safe to cycle by separating cyclists from traffic properly then more people will cycle.

You are simply making excuses to condone your narrow minded view on Gaeilge!

Seth Brundle

downcow wrote: »

Does anyone know what percentage of Roi population speak Irish?

Have a look at www.cso.ie

downcow

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

39.8% of the Irish population as per the 2016 Census

The total number of persons (aged 3 and over) who could speak Irish in April 2016 was 1,761,420, representing 39.8 per cent of the population. This is a decrease of 13,017 on the 2011 figure of 1,774,437. More females than males identified themselves as being able to speak Irish with 968,777 female speakers (55%) compared with 792,643 males (45%), a pattern repeated from previous censuses (excluding not stated).

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-cp10esil/p10esil/ilg/

Thanks for that but I’m finding it a wee bit hard to follow. Seems the 39% are those who learnt Irish at school which would probably be similar for french.
Can you work out what is the overall daily Irish speakers percentage?

Seth Brundle

It is in the infographic I posted.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Thanks for that but I’m finding it a wee bit hard to follow. Seems the 39% are those who learnt Irish at school which would probably be similar for french.
Can you work out what is the overall daily Irish speakers percentage?

Let's cut to the chase of what you are trying to do, which is to prove that there is no real interest in Irish and Loyalist bands should get the funding instead.

Let me save you some time, if Loyalist bands are providing a cultural and not a political outlet for people, they too should be receiving funding. Just like other minority cultural pursuits should, like ballet and opera.

I have nothing to fear from a Loyalist band that is respectful and non confrontational.

LuckyLloyd

downcow wrote: »

Thanks for that but I’m finding it a wee bit hard to follow. Seems the 39% are those who learnt Irish at school which would probably be similar for french.
Can you work out what is the overall daily Irish speakers percentage?

Also none of this matters. An Irish Language Act was agreed to by your politicians multiple times. Are the people and politicians of your community trustworthy? Do they honour their agreements?

That’s what we’re really talking about here. Not % of native speakers on the island.

FrancieBrady

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Also none of this matters. An Irish Language Act was agreed to by your politicians multiple times. Are the people and politicians of your community trustworthy? Do they honour their agreements?

That’s what we’re really talking about here. Not % of native speakers on the island.

It's a bit like downcow trying to re-negotiate the WA and the Protocol.

Seth Brundle

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It's a bit like downcow trying to re-negotiate the WA and the Protocol.

I wouldn't say that but it is more that downcow is trying to justify the DUP's attempts to renege on the ILA because [insert random but weak excuse here].
It is obviously upsetting to some unionists in NI because they are seeing their dominance gradually erode away. As their "rights" are being eroded there is a sense that the other side are being rewarded. They cannot see the imbalance. I don't think they want to.
This is clearly reflected in many of downcow's posts. When they make a point and are challenged or proven wrong, they simply ignore it only to repeat it again at a later point (their nonsense about the NIP being a case in point)

FrancieBrady

Seth Brundle wrote: »

I wouldn't say that but it is more that downcow is trying to justify the DUP's attempts to renege on the ILA because [insert random but weak excuse here].
It is obviously upsetting to some unionists in NI because they are seeing their dominance gradually erode away. As their "rights" are being eroded there is a sense that the other side are being rewarded. They cannot see the imbalance. I don't think they want to.
This is clearly reflected in many of downcow's posts. When they make a point and are challenged or proven wrong, they simply ignore it only to repeat it again at a later point (their nonsense about the NIP being a case in point)

Indeed, Gavin Robinson DUP was allowed do it on Spotlight last night. Blame everyone else and blithely ignore what they had done to get us where we are.

Muahahaha

I read something Linda Ervine said about Presbyterians in the north helping to preserve the Irish language in the 1800s, does anyone know what is the background to that?

Linda herself is from the unionist tradition but is doing trojan work promoting the Irish language in the north having become fluent in it herself.

Fann Linn

Muahahaha wrote: »

I read something Linda Ervine said about Presbyterians in the north helping to preserve the Irish language in the 1800s, does anyone know what is the background to that?

Linda herself is from the unionist tradition but is doing trojan work promoting the Irish language in the north having become fluent in it herself.

Really impressed with that woman the way she has engaged with the language considering her background. I'm no believer in Seanad Eireann but if anyone deserves a seat this woman does.

FrancieBrady

Muahahaha wrote: »

I read something Linda Ervine said about Presbyterians in the north helping to preserve the Irish language in the 1800s, does anyone know what is the background to that?

Linda herself is from the unionist tradition but is doing trojan work promoting the Irish language in the north having become fluent in it herself.

Yes...the Presbyterians actually printed schoolbooks in Irish. That support began to fade as it began to be associated with Home Rule etc.

It was an English born MP from Derry who introduced legislation to prevent it being promoted in schools. Part of the familiar colonial ploy of wiping out indigenous language and culture as much as possible.

The language was always of the Irish people on this island, protestant and catholic and everyone else who lived and functioned here.

BonnieSituation

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Yes...the Presbyterians actually printed schoolbooks in Irish. That support began to fade as it began to be associated with Home Rule etc.

It was an English born MP from Derry who introduced legislation to prevent it being promoted in schools. Part of the familiar colonial ploy of wiping out indigenous language and culture as much as possible.

The language was always of the Irish people on this island, protestant and catholic and everyone else who lived and functioned here.

Was that a natural or an artificial intervention?

---

Now that Jezza is in charge, what do we think the next politically astute play is?

Do we reckon any current DUP MLAs will play ball and resign so he can be co-opted?

jimmycrackcorm

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Also none of this matters. An Irish Language Act was agreed to by your politicians multiple times. Are the people and politicians of your community trustworthy? Do they honour their agreements?

That’s what we’re really talking about here. Not % of native speakers on the island.

I wonder why the DUP object to the ILA when the Welsh have implemented a similar act. Have they offered an explanation?

briany

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

I wonder why the DUP object to the ILA when the Welsh have implemented a similar act. Have they offered an explanation?

Yes, Jim Wells of the DUP has said that Sinn Fein have hijacked the Irish language and made it into a political weapon. He didn't elaborate on how it is a weapon, though.

oisinog

Fann Linn wrote: »

Really impressed with that woman the way she has engaged with the language considering her background. I'm no believer in Seanad Eireann but if anyone deserves a seat this woman does.

She is also President of East Belfast GAA

Capt'n Midnight

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

I wonder why the DUP object to the ILA when the Welsh have implemented a similar act. Have they offered an explanation?

And the Scots.

The teaching of Irish in NI schools was defunded shortly after partition then time for it was deallocated and then pressure was put on teachers to not teach it for free in their own time.

It's still illegal to use Irish in a NI court.

Capt'n Midnight

briany wrote: »

Yes, Jim Wells of the DUP has said that Sinn Fein have hijacked the Irish language and made it into a political weapon. He didn't elaborate on how it is a weapon, though.

The very fabric of society is collapsing with the amount of Chinese and Polish that's spoken everyday up there.

downcow

downcow wrote: »

I am staying the obvious. Anyone is free to learn Irish or join a loyalist band. I don’t think anyone is blocking either

You really are in denial...

downcow wrote: »

There is nothing we need. Unionists and nationalists are both exceptionally well of. We are fairly free to practice our culture, identity, pastimes, etc.
I think what you are talking about is an act that states that you can have you language on all communications that arrive through my door from government.
I have no problem if you have irish tattooed on your head, but don't force it on me - and I equally agree that my culture and pastimes should not be forced on you with your own taxes

It is really simple equity that i want

Simple equity would mean accepting that some people want to receive communications as Gaeilge - and failure to accede to those wishes is actually forcing your choice of language on these people...


Sensible people are quite happy to compromise, and choose whichever language they want to use. The fact that you cannot accept that speaks volumes about your attitude...



If it upsets you that much, you could always just ignore the Irish section - much as you undoubtedly do with road signs in European languages, or instruction manuals in multiple languages...


You're quite safe, the Irish words will just stay on the page, just like other languages - honestly!:D:D:D

realdanbreen

downcow wrote: »

Thanks for that but I’m finding it a wee bit hard to follow. Seems the 39% are those who learnt Irish at school which would probably be similar for french.
Can you work out what is the overall daily Irish speakers percentage?

Of course you do. Anything that doesn't suit you find " a wee bit hard to follow " How about following this_ the sectarian and bigoted state that was created and maintained to appease unionists is crumbling month on month.. ironically that crumbling has been accelerated by the behaviour and arrogance and meanness of unionist politicians. It's Time to get used to the fact that you are not wanted by England and start preparing for being tolerated in a United Ireland.

realdanbreen

realdanbreen wrote: »

Of course you do. Anything that doesn't suit you find " a wee bit hard to follow " How about following this_ the sectarian and bigoted state that was created and maintained to appease unionists is crumbling month on month.. ironically that crumbling has been accelerated by the behaviour and arrogance and meanness of unionist politicians. It's Time to get used to the fact that you are not wanted by England and start preparing for being tolerated in a United Ireland.

Further to this do they realise in a United Ireland there are more Polish or Brazilians than Unionists!

jimmycrackcorm

Badly fukt wrote: »

Further to this do they realise in a United Ireland there are more Polish or Brazilians than Unionists!

Pointing out that both nationalities are more likely to be Catholic is just adding petrol to the fire.

breezy1985

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Pointing out that both nationalities are more likely to be Catholic is just adding petrol to the fire.

And both are lots of fun and unionists hate fun. Especially on a Sunday

jimmycrackcorm

breezy1985 wrote: »

And both are lots of fun and unionists hate fun. Especially on a Sunday

Brazilians do love an ould parade. Unionists just object to the dress sense of the ladies.