Arlene, Edwin, her replacement and his replacement as leader of the DUP

ohnonotgmail

realdanbreen wrote: »

I think this thread has passed its sell by date.

it certainly lasted longer than Poots

breezy1985

realdanbreen wrote: »

I think this thread has passed its sell by date.

It will be needed again in a few weeks when the DUP are ousting another leader

gormdubhgorm

BonnieSituation wrote: »

So we shouldn't try at all, is that what you're saying?

Very defeatist of you.


---

Anyway, back to the DUPers...

I never said that at all. I am just pointing out the curious mixture of those involved in the Irish language community in the ROI from observation and personal experience. It has not clicked with the mainstream.

—
As for the DUP I expect Donaldson to be a far more astute leader than Poots. Good in interviews and debates. Arguably better than Arlene as well. He at least has an appearance of meaning business imo.

Claw Hammer

Strazdas wrote: »

Aren't there far more Gaelscoileanna now than there were twenty years ago? That doesn't sound like a dying language : there are 50 such schools in Dublin alone.

So what. The students who attend gaelscoileanna in Dublin invariably go on to third level where they will be involved in an English speaking world and unless they are studying irish itself all of their lectures and course work will be through English and all of the societies they might join with the exception of specifically Irish speaking ones if any will be run through English. Very few of them will be involved in Irish culture of conduct any of their business or socialising through Irish. Most will not read a newspaper article in irish or a book in Irish. The measure of the strength of a language is how many use it in theior day to day life, not how many attend school in it. In may cases the demand for gaelscoileanna has little to do with the propagation of Irish but parents trying to steal a march.

realdanbreen

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

—
As for the DUP I expect Donaldson to be a far more astute leader than Poots. Good in interviews and debates. Arguably better than Arlene as well. He at least has an appearance of meaning business imo.

Donaldson may be less extreme than Poots and the rest of the religious fringe but I would regard him as utterly untrustworthy, in fact almost to the point of being dangerous because of that.

Strazdas

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

The problem is it is only a certain cohort. Granted there is exceptions like Gaelscoils in Clondalkin etc. But the problem is those with a strong interest in the Irish language are normally for a better educated background, thereby more likely middle class. Leading in turn to problems of an appearance of elitism, keeping people of a certain class or nationality out.

From what I see it has a 'false bubble effect', encouraging people that already have an interest and not encouraging people from different backgrounds.

Unless the working class are of a strong overt 'Republican' background, I find they are not drawn to the Irish language.

That may change in time. There might be the start of a pushback against globalisation and a realisation that local traditions and customs and culture are very important for a country's identity. Look at the revival and popularity of Irish dancing and Irish traditional music for example. Thirty or forty years ago, these would have been seen by many as quite naff, old fashioned and of not much relevance to younger people.

blanch152

Claw Hammer wrote: »

So what. The students who attend gaelscoileanna in Dublin invariably go on to third level where they will be involved in an English speaking world and unless they are studying irish itself all of their lectures and course work will be through English and all of the societies they might join with the exception of specifically Irish speaking ones if any will be run through English. Very few of them will be involved in Irish culture of conduct any of their business or socialising through Irish. Most will not read a newspaper article in irish or a book in Irish. The measure of the strength of a language is how many use it in theior day to day life, not how many attend school in it. In may cases the demand for gaelscoileanna has little to do with the propagation of Irish but parents trying to steal a march.

More importantly for the parents, the kids at gaeilscoileanna rarely have to mix with those Polish and Nigerian kids.

ohnonotgmail

blanch152 wrote: »

More importantly for the parents, the kids at gaeilscoileanna rarely have to mix with those Polish and Nigerian kids.

The 00's called and want their talking points back

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/gaelscoileanna-and-social-apartheid-1.1276143

FrancieBrady

Claw Hammer wrote: »

So what. The students who attend gaelscoileanna in Dublin invariably go on to third level where they will be involved in an English speaking world and unless they are studying irish itself all of their lectures and course work will be through English and all of the societies they might join with the exception of specifically Irish speaking ones if any will be run through English. Very few of them will be involved in Irish culture of conduct any of their business or socialising through Irish. Most will not read a newspaper article in irish or a book in Irish. The measure of the strength of a language is how many use it in theior day to day life, not how many attend school in it. In may cases the demand for gaelscoileanna has little to do with the propagation of Irish but parents trying to steal a march.

Your 'measure', not everyone's. The preservation of the language and the culture is important even to non-speakers.

I still don't know why this denigration of all attempts to promote Irish is important in the denial of rights to Irish people though.

blanch152

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

The 00's called and want their talking points back

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/gaelscoileanna-and-social-apartheid-1.1276143

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/census-figures-raise-concerns-of-ethnic-segregation-in-schools-1.2114559?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Feducation%2Fcensus-figures-raise-concerns-of-ethnic-segregation-in-schools-1.2114559

2015.

It hasn't gone away.

ohnonotgmail

blanch152 wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/census-figures-raise-concerns-of-ethnic-segregation-in-schools-1.2114559?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Feducation%2Fcensus-figures-raise-concerns-of-ethnic-segregation-in-schools-1.2114559

2015.

It hasn't gone away.

now i can't read that article as it is subscriber only but from what i can read it concerns primary schools in general not gaelscoils in particular. does it support your assertion that

More importantly for the parents, the kids at gaeilscoileanna rarely have to mix with those Polish and Nigerian kids.

Claw Hammer

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Your 'measure', not everyone's. The preservation of the language and the culture is important even to non-speakers.

I still don't know why this denigration of all attempts to promote Irish is important in the denial of rights to Irish people though.

If nobody is speaking it or using it, it is like Latin. An academic language only. At one time every second level student outside of the VEC schools studied latin at school. Latin was not alive when that happened and the fact of so many students learning it did not make it alive.
The reality is that about 30,000 speak irish on a day to day basis. On current trends there will be no Gaeltacht at all in 20 years.

FrancieBrady

Claw Hammer wrote: »

If nobody is speaking it or using it, it is like Latin. An academic language only. At one time every second level student outside of the VEC schools studied latin at school. Latin was not alive when that happened and the fact of so many students learning it did not make it alive.
The reality is that about 30,000 speak irish on a day to day basis. On current trends there will be no Gaeltacht at all in 20 years.

So would you allow Latin to die out?

The 'Gaeltacht' model may have outlived it's usefulness.
A grassroots revival through activism and the Gael Scoil movement is probably what it needs.
Was only a few days ago listening to some children speaking it among themselves at the gym.
Certainly far more people using it than there was when I was younger.

Why would any Irish person bemoan and refuse to support that? Is it because, like Unionists, you'd hate if it seemed the shinners got a win?

Bizarre begrudgry any which way.

BonnieSituation

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So would you allow Latin to die out?

The 'Gaeltacht' model may have outlived it's usefulness.
A grassroots revival through activism and the Gael Scoil movement is probably what it needs.
Was only a few days ago listening to some children speaking it among themselves at the gym.
Certainly far more people using it than there was when I was younger.

Why would any Irish person bemoan and refuse to support that? Is it because, like Unionists, you'd hate if it seemed the shinners got a win?

Bizarre begrudgry any which way.

Imagine being on the side of belligerent Unionists when it comes to partition and the Irish language.

It's bizarre.

breezy1985

Claw Hammer wrote: »

If nobody is speaking it or using it, it is like Latin. An academic language only. At one time every second level student outside of the VEC schools studied latin at school. Latin was not alive when that happened and the fact of so many students learning it did not make it alive.
The reality is that about 30,000 speak irish on a day to day basis. On current trends there will be no Gaeltacht at all in 20 years.

On current trends the bulk of 30000 will be dead or gone within 20 years ?

FrancieBrady

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Imagine being on the side of belligerent Unionists when it comes to partition and the Irish language.

It's bizarre.

The inferiority complex inflicted by colonialism can seep down generations. I truly believe that, especially when I read the self deprecation around our language and culture.

gormdubhgorm

Strazdas wrote: »

That may change in time. There might be the start of a pushback against globalisation and a realisation that local traditions and customs and culture are very important for a country's identity. Look at the revival and popularity of Irish dancing and Irish traditional music for example. Thirty or forty years ago, these would have been seen by many as quite naff, old fashioned and of not much relevance to younger people.

Ireland has had over a 100 years now to sort out the Irish language I would not be holding my breath. If it was going to happen it would have happened a long time ago.

Looking at it logically the population is too small in Ireland to have a proper Irish language revival. Also Ireland is too close both culturally and geographically to the UK and England. Which makes a proper revival difficult - people are lazy when it comes down to it. They walk the walk but do not talk the talk.

No matter what lines CnaG put out Irish is in trouble. CnaG get no grants and if you ever were in 'The Club' in Harcourt Street you would see the state of it (former SF bank and really ironically it used to be a home to British soldiers taking military exams). Also Edward Carson's former gaff is a few doors down.

https://www.rte.ie/centuryireland/index.php/articles/cradle-of-the-irish-republic-a-journey-through-6-harcourt-street

https://comeheretome.com/2011/03/19/the-plaques-of-dublin-lord-edward-carson-harcourt-street/

The club is ramshackled and needs refurbishment - despite attempts of a lick of paint here and there, you would freeze in winter and boil in the summer. Pints are great though. You have to go down steps to get in the door is not a street level. You sort of have to know about it. It sums up the Irish language problem in Ireland it needs care and attention, always in the shadows of English. Most people would walk by the place on a busy weekend without even knowing it is there. On most weekends it is normally fairly quiet unless a Gaelscoil takes over the place on an odd weekend or some one young one/young fella has their birthday party there.

Dyr

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Imagine being on the side of belligerent Unionists when it comes to partition and the Irish language.

It's bizarre.

Post Colonial Syndrome doesnt cover the half of it

Obviously the go to option was Britain up until recently, but the modern FGer has a preference for your neo liberal globalist worldview to make him feel a bit better than his fellow natives

BonnieSituation

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The inferiority complex inflicted by colonialism can seep down generations. I truly believe that, especially when I read the self deprecation around our language and culture.

Imagine talking about Unionists and their 'culture' the way they talk about our own; you'd be derided as sectarian. When it comes to it being offensive and even against the GFA to even 'talk' about a UI it just shows how warped partitionists and Unionists attitudes have become.

breezy1985

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Imagine talking about Unionists and their 'culture' the way they talk about our own; you'd be derided as sectarian. When it comes to it being offensive and even against the GFA to even 'talk' about a UI it just shows how warped partitionists and Unionists attitudes have become.

People who play cricket should just give up and stop cause not that many people play it.

Most people in Ireland are not protestant so they should just give up and switch to being catholics.

Most people dont celebrate the 12th so no need for parades anymore

That's what happens if you apply the logic of the unionists posting on here to other aspects of life

gormdubhgorm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The inferiority complex inflicted by colonialism can seep down generations. I truly believe that, especially when I read the self deprecation around our language and culture.

Is that a self reflection in the form of a soliloquy perhaps?

An extremely limited Irish language grasp, a self professed Nottingham Forest supporter, but a proud border county man, and first time SF voter?

Difficult place to be I suppose....

FrancieBrady

breezy1985 wrote: »

People who play cricket should just give up and stop cause not that many people play it.

Most people in Ireland are not protestant so they should just give up and switch to being catholics.

Most people dont celebrate the 12th so no need for parades anymore

That's what happens if you apply the logic of the unionists posting on here to other aspects of life

It's self abasement to try and vindicate Unionist denial of rights. Bizarre stuff to read.

FrancieBrady

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Is that a self reflection in the form of a soliloquy perhaps?

An extremely limited Irish language grasp, a self professed Nottingham Forest supporter, but a proud border county man, and first time SF voter?

Difficult place to be I suppose....

My Irish is not limited...I don't support any club bar Monaghan GAA.(Nott Forest??????) I don't denigrate the Irish anguage or culture nor my heritage including the British part in it.
Other than that you are correct - proud Monaghan man and 1st time to vote SF in a GE

McMurphy

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Imagine being on the side of belligerent Unionists when it comes to partition and the Irish language.

It's bizarre.

They're just an impartial observer from the sidelines, who isn't really on the side of belligerent unionists, it's an absolute coincidence they're repeating the exact same spiel as Arlene and co...

blanch152 wrote: »

There are more native speakers of Polish born in Ireland these days than native speakers of Irish.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HlxG_rxwUg

L1011

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

No matter what lines CnaG put out Irish is in trouble. CnaG get no grants and if you ever were in 'The Club' in Harcourt Street you would see the state of it (former SF bank and really ironically it used to be a home to British soldiers taking military exams). Also Edward Carson's former gaff is a few doors down.

https://www.rte.ie/centuryireland/index.php/articles/cradle-of-the-irish-republic-a-journey-through-6-harcourt-street

https://comeheretome.com/2011/03/19/the-plaques-of-dublin-lord-edward-carson-harcourt-street/

The club is ramshackled and needs refurbishment - despite attempts of a lick of paint here and there, you would freeze in winter and boil in the summer. Pints are great though. You have to go down steps to get in the door is not a street level. You sort of have to know about it. It sums up the Irish language problem in Ireland it needs care and attention, always in the shadows of English. Most people would walk by the place on a busy weekend without even knowing it is there. On most weekends it is normally fairly quiet unless a Gaelscoil takes over the place on an odd weekend or some one young one/young fella has their birthday party there.

There is a vastly superior, livelier, more modern Gaelgoir (English language tolerated) pub in Kimmage, which won't help demand here.

https://www.theliberty.ie/2019/05/14/a-profile-on-kimmage-pub-and-brewery-four-provinces/

FrancieBrady

McMurphy wrote: »

They're just an impartial observer from the sidelines, who isn't really on the side of belligerent unionists, it's an absolute coincidence they're repeating the exact same spiel as Arlene and co...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HlxG_rxwUg

Amazing. Coincidence? I think not.

McMurphy

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Amazing. Coincidence? I think not.

Imagine having that level of hatred towards your fellow citizens that you would repeat the bile spouted by the DUP, just to try and get their backs up.

It's obsessiveness on another level.

gormdubhgorm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

My Irish is not limited...I don't support any club bar Monaghan GAA.(Nott Forest??????) I don't denigrate the Irish anguage or culture nor my heritage including the British part in it.
Other than that you are correct - proud Monaghan man and 1st time to vote SF in a GE

I believe you mentioned you supported Forrest back in the day and also wished you had a greater command of Irish? Unless it was another poster?

But you are correct though a culture can change in a few generations my great grandfather would have had virtually no English. Irish was viewed as the language of the poor. But as I see it some Irish people who have neglected their Irish culture which is of no fault of the British in the Republic now (for 100 years) find their main expression of Irishness is to create a pretence over the Irish language and hope that being ‘anti partition’ covers their personal shame. It has little to do with Irish culture but more embarrassment at their own laziness and immersion in British culture. It is almost a self denial of reality.

BonnieSituation

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I believe you mentioned you supported Forrest back in the day and also wished you had a greater command of Irish? But you are correct though a culture can change in a few generations my great grandfather would have had virtually no English. But as I see it some Irish people who have neglected their Irish culture which is of no fault of the British in the Republic now find their sole expression of Irishness is to create a pretence over the Irish language and hope that being ‘anti partition’ covers their personal shame. It has little to do with Irish culture but embarrassment at their own laziness and immersion in British culture. It is almost a self denial of reality.

'Anti-partition'?

What's with this mealy-mouthed obsequious attitude you seem to have wrt Unionism and the Irish language?

FrancieBrady

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I believe you mentioned you supported Forrest back in the day and also wished you had a greater command of Irish? Unless it was another poster?

But you are correct though a culture can change in a few generations my great grandfather would have had virtually no English. Irish was viewed as the language of the poor. But as I see it some Irish people who have neglected their Irish culture which is of no fault of the British in the Republic now (for 100 years) find their main expression of Irishness is to create a pretence over the Irish language and hope that being ‘anti partition’ covers their personal shame. It has little to do with Irish culture but more embarrassment at their own laziness and immersion in British culture. It is almost a self denial of reality.

Culture is a living thing, it never stops. Jedward are a part of our culture and somebody who never even heard Irish spoken can be a part of our culture.
Your antediluvian views of what culture is, don't count anymore.

We have absorbed aspects of all cultures we have come into contact with just as the British, Spanish Italian etc cultures have. We still have a unique one though despite your inferiority complexes.