Arlene, Edwin, her replacement and his replacement as leader of the DUP

Muahahaha

blanch152 wrote: »

More importantly for the parents, the kids at gaeilscoileanna rarely have to mix with those Polish and Nigerian kids.

There are six different nationalities in my nieces Gaelscoileanna class, nice try to bring racism into the argument though.

McMurphy wrote: »

Imagine having that level of hatred towards your fellow citizens that you would repeat the bile spouted by the DUP, just to try and get their backs up.

It's obsessiveness on another level.

Astonishing isnt it, blanch is now using the exact same arguments about the Irish language that Arlene Foster did when delivering her bile and sectarianism in that speech. But, but,but whatabout the Polish :rolleyes:

Partitionists have always seeked to kill off the Irish language so I guess it is not surprising that blanch and the DUP are aligned on this subject.

athlone573

Some massive chips on shoulders being displayed here

What has Donaldson actually said about NDNA / ILA, do Paddy Power have a book on how long he'll last?

Speedline

athlone573 wrote: »

Some massive chips on shoulders being displayed here

What has Donaldson actually said about NDNA / ILA, do Paddy Power have a book on how long he'll last?

I've noticed myself he hasn't said much. Probably pointless as it's getting rammed through regardless.

breezy1985

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I believe you mentioned you supported Forrest back in the day and also wished you had a greater command of Irish? Unless it was another poster?

But you are correct though a culture can change in a few generations my great grandfather would have had virtually no English. Irish was viewed as the language of the poor. But as I see it some Irish people who have neglected their Irish culture which is of no fault of the British in the Republic now (for 100 years) find their main expression of Irishness is to create a pretence over the Irish language and hope that being ‘anti partition’ covers their personal shame. It has little to do with Irish culture but more embarrassment at their own laziness and immersion in British culture. It is almost a self denial of reality.

This I think is one of the biggest killers of the Irish language or at least it was when I was young. This stuffy old idea of one rigid type of "Irish culture" where anything except a certain type of dance, whiny old music and catholicism were not Irish. This kind of backward cultural extremism put someone like myself an atheist with an interest in modern Irish music and culture off of anything peddled by the traditionalists.Also my great grandfathers were very poor men as were my great grandmothers who all spoke English as a first language so there is no one size fits all story based on your family

Im not embarrassed about any of this I just thing having a ILA would be better than not having one

gormdubhgorm

I forgot to mention I did a bit of research/revision on the underrepresented community on this thread (Unionists) - on this issue.

As regards the ILA. It seems that some of their cohort's fear is 'this is only the start of it' and 'what will happen next Irish language on the Shankhill' etc?

Some seem just pure cynical on it and would somehow feel less British and feel their identity is threatened if they saw a fada.

However, it must be said that the DUP never agreed to the ILA.
This has been fact checked.

https://www.thejournal.ie/factcheck-irish-language-act-3209218-Jan2017/

So they cannot actually have reneged on something they never agreed to in the first place. As the largest representative of the Unionist community they clearly have been given a mandate to do so. The DUP have been very consistent on it apparently, and their mandate has not changed.

From the outside looking in I am well aware how mandate is used by both sides of the largest representatives of political divide to justify their actions/non-actions - the DUP with the ILA. SF not going to WM during the brexit crisis and so on.

From my understanding due to the nature of NI any legislation introduced must take into account the sensitivities of both communities. Some no doubt are cynically hiding behind this, while others have genuine concerns. As we all know how important symbolism is for both communities in NI - image is important. And some on one side does not want to the other get 'one up' on them.

The issue has not been helped by CnaG sticking it's oar in during discussions for the ILA. Where they wanted 10 percent of the civil service to operate or be proficient in the Irish Language. This was then confused as part of the agreement by fearful Unionists and had them running scared or used it as an excuse.

In the St Andrews Agreement as far as I can tell, there is no details on how the ILA would be implemented. None of the nitty gritty was laid out. It was/is just a generalised document requiring more negotiation/finesse on its implementation.

FrancieBrady

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I forgot to mention I did a bit of research/revision on the underrepresented community on this thread (Unionists) - on this issue.

As regards the ILA. It seems that some of their cohort's fear is 'this is only the start of it' and 'what will happen next Irish language on the Shankhill' etc?

Some seem just pure cynical on it and would somehow feel less British and feel their identity is threatened if they saw a fada.

However, it must be said that the DUP never agreed to the ILA.
This has been fact checked.

https://www.thejournal.ie/factcheck-irish-language-act-3209218-Jan2017/

So they cannot actually have reneged on something they never agreed to in the first place. As the largest representative of the Unionist community they clearly have been given a mandate to do so. The DUP have been very consistent on it apparently, and their mandate has not changed.

From the outside looking in I am well aware how mandate is used by both sides of the largest representatives of political divide to justify their actions - the DUP with the ILA. SF not going to WM during the brexit crisis and so on.

From my understanding due to the nature of NI any legislation introduced must take into account the sensitivities of both communities. Some no doubt are cynically hiding behind this while others have genuine concerns. As we all know how important symbolism is for both communities in NI - image is important. And some on one side does not want to the other get 'one up' on them.

The issue has not been helped by CnaG sticking it's oar in during discussions for the ILA. Where they wanted 10 percent of the civil service to operate or be proficient in the Irish Language. This was then confused as part of the agreement by fearful Unionists and had them running scared or used it as an excuse.

In the St Andrews Agreement as far as I can tell, there is no details on how the ILA would be implemented. None of the nitty gritty was laid out. It was/is just a generalised document requiring more negotiation/finesse on its implementation.

To get Stormont back the DUP did a deal on the Irish Language and Ulster Scots which they have refused to implement.

Do your research properly GD.

By the way they didn't sign up to the GFA either but now claim to be ardent believers in it and are demanding to be protected by it. Even going to the courts.

Dangerous and disingenuous.

Speedline

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I forgot to mention I did a bit of research/revision on the underrepresented community on this thread (Unionists) - on this issue.

As regards the ILA. It seems that some of their cohort's fear is 'this is only the start of it' and 'what will happen next Irish language on the Shankhill' etc?

Some seem just pure cynical on it and would somehow feel less British and feel their identity is threatened if they saw a fada.

However, it must be said that the DUP never agreed to the ILA.
This has been fact checked.

https://www.thejournal.ie/factcheck-irish-language-act-3209218-Jan2017/

So they cannot actually have reneged on something they never agreed to in the first place. As the largest representative of the Unionist community they clearly have been given a mandate to do so. The DUP have been very consistent on it apparently, and their mandate has not changed.

From the outside looking in I am well aware how mandate is used by both sides of the largest representatives of political divide to justify their actions/non-actions - the DUP with the ILA. SF not going to WM during the brexit crisis and so on.

From my understanding due to the nature of NI any legislation introduced must take into account the sensitivities of both communities. Some no doubt are cynically hiding behind this, while others have genuine concerns. As we all know how important symbolism is for both communities in NI - image is important. And some on one side does not want to the other get 'one up' on them.

The issue has not been helped by CnaG sticking it's oar in during discussions for the ILA. Where they wanted 10 percent of the civil service to operate or be proficient in the Irish Language. This was then confused as part of the agreement by fearful Unionists and had them running scared or used it as an excuse.

In the St Andrews Agreement as far as I can tell, there is no details on how the ILA would be implemented. None of the nitty gritty was laid out. It was/is just a generalised document requiring more negotiation/finesse on its implementation.

I wouldn't really worry about it. The unionists will be relieved to hear their Ulster Scots language will be recognised too, and they can speak that up and down the Shankill all they like.

This is being brought in by Westminster soon. Once it's done and dusted, everyone will settle down.

FrancieBrady

Edwin not at Jeffrey's ratification meeting and Sammy arrives an hour late.

All still not well in the DUP?

gormdubhgorm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Culture is a living thing, it never stops. Jedward are a part of our culture and somebody who never even heard Irish spoken can be a part of our culture.
Your antediluvian views of what culture is, don't count anymore.

We have absorbed aspects of all cultures we have come into contact with just as the British, Spanish Italian etc cultures have. We still have a unique one though despite your inferiority complexes.

I have zero inferiority complex despite you continually trotting out the line. I have a fair command of the Irish Language a silver fainne similar to your friend Gerry.

I know what my Irishness is to me and I am not afraid to define it unlike you. As I recall your response to my question on you how do you define your Irishness?

You were extremely reticent and vague. And said you do so 'in your own wee way'. And you point blank refused to elboate which struck me as odd. Considering you seem to have such a vested interest in such issues yet seem very cagey on what Irishness means to you or to yourself.

If anything it could be taken as an inferiority complex. You are either comfortable in it or you are not. Why the caginess?

The Jedward argument is laughable one if I remember Simon Cowell though they were American given their accents. Again a sumersion of another culture.

The reality is the ILA is a game and we all know it. It does little to really help the Irish Language pure symbolism like a bald man with a toupee, it is necessary for others to be willing to collude in the delusion that the bald man has a find head of hair.

The final irony of this discussion of the ILA is been discussed in tongue of what you would I assume view as 'the oppressor'.

Would posters be able to conduct a discussion in teach naGealt for example?

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=904

A small little corner of boards.ie in which posters post in the Irish language.

This is in the Republic and English is still the Lingua Franca in 2021 both online and off. Yet we are somehow supposed to pretend that an ILA is sign of progression and 'preservation' of culture in NI. In my view it is been played with has damn all to do with culture. It is one upmanship which is always the case in NI. A sort of cold war.

FrancieBrady

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I have zero inferiority complex despite you continually trotting out the line. I have a fair command of the Irish Language a silver fainne similar to your friend Gerry.

I know what my Irishness is to me and I am not afraid to define it unlike you. As I recall your response to my question on you how do you define your Irishness?

You were extremely reticent and vague. And said you do so 'in your own wee way'. And you point blank refused to elboate which struck me as odd. Considering you seem to have such a vested interest in such issues yet seem very cagey on what Irishness means to you or to yourself.

If anything it could be taken as an inferiority complex. You are either comfortable in it or you are not. Why the caginess?

The Jedward argument is laughable one if I remember Simon Cowell though they were American given their accents. Again a sumersion of another culture.

Contained within that is proof positive that you have a narrow view of what a living 'culture' is. Not in my pay grade to enlighten you.

The reality is the ILA is a game and we all know it. It does little to really help the Irish Language pure symbolism like a bald man with a toupee, it is necessary for others to be willing to collude in the delusion that the bald man has a find head of hair.

The final irony of this discussion of the ILA is been discussed in tongue of what you would I assume view as 'the oppressor'.

Would posters be able to conduct a discussion in teach naGealt for example?

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=904

A small little corner of boards.ie in which posters post in the Irish language.

This is in the Republic and English is still the Lingua Franca in 2021 both online and off. Yet we are somehow supposed to pretend that an ILA is sign of progression and 'preservation' of culture in NI. In my view it is been played with has damn all to do with culture. It is one upmanship which is always the case in NI. A sort of cold war.

Again with the self deprecation...if an Irish person wants their rights enshrined...it is 'one-upmanship'.

I also don't need to prove my level of Irish to you nor my Irishness. I don't view either as competitions.

gormdubhgorm

Speedline wrote: »

I wouldn't really worry about it. The unionists will be relieved to hear their Ulster Scots language will be recognised too, and they can speak that up and down the Shankill all they like.

This is being brought in by Westminster soon. Once it's done and dusted, everyone will settle down.

Another farce is Ulster Scots, probably even more facrical than the Irish language because it is even questionable whether it is a language or a dialect.

So we have one side who pretend to give a damn about a language about 1.5% speak Irish as a community language in the ROI and 0.2% in NI. It is purely symbolic.

Then we have Ulster Scots thrown in which is supposed to be a 'leveller', but it is not really recognised by linguists as a language at all. Spoken by 0.9% of the population in NI. More akin to English spoken with an accent!

If you stand back and look at it, the whole thing is off the wall stuff. Wasted energy.

gormdubhgorm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Contained within that is proof positive that you have a narrow view of what a living 'culture' is. Not in my pay grade to enlighten you.



Again with the self deprecation...if an Irish person wants their rights enshrined...it is 'one-upmanship'.

I also don't need to prove my level of Irish to you nor my Irishness. I don't view either as competitions.

It is not self deprecating, merely FACT!

It is a thread which relates to the discussion of the Irish language and Irish people's willingness/unwillingness to speak it. Given that you are so exercised about the issue your level of Irish or lack thereof is relevant, to the discussion given your strong views on the topic.

It has nothing to do with a competition, more so do with the realities of the Irish language in Ireland. That comment is a deflelction mechanism on your part nothing more.

If everyone spoke it at home or as communities the Irish language problem would be much improved. No legislation needed. If people really cared they would at least attempt to speak it off their own bat.
There would be a far less need to lean heavily on symbolism/worse political symbolism (which is what the ILA is) and instead there would be more a move towards practical action on the ground.

You are gas. I wonder why you are so vague? I will leave it there and let your silence incriminate you. You are a great man for asking others questions either rhetorical or otherwise. Yet when a mhalairt de chás ann (shoe is on the other other foot). You clam up completely all that bravado and sense of pride vanishes.

It is replaced with vagueness, reticent, shyness, reluctance, deflection, and so on. If someone did not know any better they would think you had something to hide (at worst) or at best was a bit of a spoofer when it comes to the crunch (at best).

But sure if you don't want to be open on the issue fine. But I fear if your attitude is a microcosm/mirroring of NI's issues there is not much hope for this 'shared future' some go on about is there?

If I or other posters want to see NI 'issues' they only have to do is read 'Francie Brady's' posts.

To be honest I now use them as barometer as there are many, and normally aligned to a tee with SF. It gives a good flavour of the thinking and mindset. Same dodging of questions, the same levels of disengiouness. Avoiding answers to simple questions. It is the same 'play book' really. Same style.

I never have any problem answering any of your questions. Yet you seem to duck and dive. It depends on how you are raised in certain community I suppose? It must be learnt by osmosis?

RandomViewer

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Edwin not at Jeffrey's ratification meeting and Sammy arrives an hour late.

All still not well in the DUP?

Sammy wants his turn, he's been waiting 35 years ,was even going to marry into the Paisley's but couldn't keep his pants on, he wants to he top dog, the wee head bright red and the slavers flying everywhere as he roars absolute idiocy at all and sundry,

Strazdas

breezy1985 wrote: »

This I think is one of the biggest killers of the Irish language or at least it was when I was young. This stuffy old idea of one rigid type of "Irish culture" where anything except a certain type of dance, whiny old music and catholicism were not Irish. This kind of backward cultural extremism put someone like myself an atheist with an interest in modern Irish music and culture off of anything peddled by the traditionalists.Also my great grandfathers were very poor men as were my great grandmothers who all spoke English as a first language so there is no one size fits all story based on your family

Im not embarrassed about any of this I just thing having a ILA would be better than not having one

The problem is the Irish State in the 20th century thought it could revive the Irish language by simply ramming it down people's throats, make it compulsory everywhere and almost bully people into learning it (De Valera for example had some very eccentric opinions on what Ireland should look like).

There was no attempt to engender love for the language or make it seem accessible - instead many people began to associate it with Irish authoritarianism and backwardness, particularly in urban areas....the language often thought of as being pushed by deeply conservative fanatics from rural areas.

But having said all that, there is hope the language won't die out. We've already seen a strong revival of Irish dancing and Irish traditional music in the last 30 years or so and there might come a point when the language is seen as 'cool' to learn.

FrancieBrady

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

It is not self deprecating, merely FACT!

You have chosen a position that portrays Irish people trying to achieve rights and parity of esteem as one-upmanship.
I have the right to call that kind of behaviour as self deprecating.

I have had enough of it for the day too. Take care

Claw Hammer

breezy1985 wrote: »

On current trends the bulk of 30000 will be dead or gone within 20 years ?

Pretty much so.

breezy1985

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

It is a thread which relates to the discussion of the Irish language and Irish people's unwillingness to speak it.

Its not really it's actually a thread to talk about Arlene,Edwin and whichever other unionists are lining up to be part of the great DUP implosion.
Its really only a couple of unionists like yourself who keep derailing the thread with whataboutery and nonsense about people need to be ashamed of their language skills

Claw Hammer

breezy1985 wrote: »

Its not really it's actually a thread to talk about Arlene,Edwin and whichever other unionists are lining up to be part of the great DUP implosion.
Its really only a couple of unionists like yourself who keep derailing the thread with whataboutery and nonsense about people need to be ashamed of their language skills

The DUP imploding is not going to end unionism. Unionism will resurface under anther entity. Old wine in new bottles. They haven't changed since the 1880s and they won't change now.

Speedline

Claw Hammer wrote: »

The DUP imploding is not going to end unionism. Unionism will resurface under anther entity. Old wine in new bottles. They haven't changed since the 1880s and they won't change now.

There is a slight difference now. When the Unionists shout never never never these days, Westminster just goes over their heads. :pac:

gormdubhgorm

RandomViewer wrote: »

Sammy wants his turn, he's been waiting 35 years ,was even going to marry into the Paisley's but couldn't keep his pants on, he wants to he top dog, the wee head bright red and the slavers flying everywhere as he roars absolute idiocy at all and sundry,

The DUP would be right eejits to let that fella run the party. It would be akin SF letting Dessie Ellis run SF officially!

But I appreciate such people are necessary to appeal to 'the grassroots', but no sane party would put them in a position of political leadership. It would not appeal to new voters. Plus they would not have the correct acumen or image for it.

Choochtown

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Another farce is Ulster Scots, probably even more facrical than the Irish language because it is even questionable whether it is a language or a dialect.

So we have one side who pretend to give a damn about a language about 1.5% speak Irish as a community language in the ROI and 0.2% in NI. It is purely symbolic.

Then we have Ulster Scots thrown in which is supposed to be a 'leveller', but it is not really recognised by linguists as a language at all. Spoken by 0.9% of the population in NI. More akin to English spoken with an accent!

If you stand back and look at it, the whole thing is off the wall stuff. Wasted energy.

I'm actually delighted about the inclusion of Ulster Scots.
I've just found out that I can speak it!
Something else to put on the "t'oul cv" ("the old curriculum vitae" for those non-Ulster Scots speakers).

The test is here for anyone who fancies it ...

https://www.ulsterscotsagency.com/news/article/399/test-your-knowledge-of-ulster-scots/

gormdubhgorm

breezy1985 wrote: »

Its not really it's actually a thread to talk about Arlene,Edwin and whichever other unionists are lining up to be part of the great DUP implosion.
Its really only a couple of unionists like yourself who keep derailing the thread with whataboutery and nonsense about people need to be ashamed of their language skills

Firstly I am not a Unionist just a person with my own mind who has an opinion on what I see happening.

Irish is relevant I will explain why in simple terms -

1) The whole issue was caused because of the ILA - which is been used disingenuously by both far sides of the argument in my view

2) The ILA is claimed to be necessary by some why? Because it is a form of compromise or agreement - but in reality merely symbolism

3) The ILA is claimed by some to a be form of preservation of the Irish language - the reality is it does no such thing

4) If people claim the thread is only about the DUP solely - I would question their level of commitment to the Irish language in the first place - because the ILA is shown up for what it is as a 'side issue' - or as another poster has put it a 'red herring'.

5) In my view the ILA has become another tool for argument for obvious levels of disingenuousness on both sides of the NI divide.
Some Republicans pretend that the ILA is crucial and some Unionists let on they are going to have palpitations.

6) Why did Poots have to resign as leader of his party? He was going to implement the ILA and his own party went against him.
As they have correctly claimed the party never actually agreed to it

https://www.thejournal.ie/factcheck-irish-language-act-3209218-Jan2017/

7) I suspect it will result in a GE in NI over the issue and the DUP will use this an an electoral platform - if the DUP's mandate increases as a result or even remains as the largest Unionist Party the electorate will have spoken. It will be their mandate


8) Donaldson as new leader and defined mandate will then no doubt go into negotiations on behalf of his party and his electorate - there no doubt will be a lot of playing with words (from both sides) and eventually the British or Irish government will step in/comment/suggest/cajole.

Either to negotiate between the vested interests. Or else the British government could implement the ILA on their own as a last resort. Which would be ironic on many levels.

Speedline

Jesus Christ man. The DUP agreed to implement the ILA as part of the Assembly reforming, not a wet day ago. Westminster, upon realising they were lied to by the unionists, have agreed to go over their heads. Its a done deal. Its pointless debating or arguing its relevance.

gormdubhgorm

Choochtown wrote: »

I'm actually delighted about the inclusion of Ulster Scots.
I've just found out that I can speak it!
Something else to put on the "t'oul cv" ("the old curriculum vitae" for those non-Ulster Scots speakers).

The test is here for anyone who fancies it ...

https://www.ulsterscotsagency.com/news/article/399/test-your-knowledge-of-ulster-scots/

Jayus 20/30 - Not sure if I should be happy or annoyed about that.

It was gas.

gormdubhgorm

Claw Hammer wrote: »

The DUP imploding is not going to end unionism. Unionism will resurface under anther entity. Old wine in new bottles. They haven't changed since the 1880s and they won't change now.

Agreed it will go the similar to how SF did with their split they got smarter about it - practical. The Unionists will have to do the same and learn better maneuvering.

Strazdas

Claw Hammer wrote: »

The DUP imploding is not going to end unionism. Unionism will resurface under anther entity. Old wine in new bottles. They haven't changed since the 1880s and they won't change now.

But quite a few people seem to abandoning it and moving towards the centre ground. The hardcore loyalist types won't obviously, but the growth in support for Alliance is very interesting to watch (a party that doesn't identify as either unionist or nationalist).

breezy1985

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Jayus 20/30 - Not sure if I should be happy or annoyed about that.

It was gas.

I think it says more about Ulster Scots than it does you

McMurphy

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Agreed it will go the similar to how SF did with their split they got smarter about it - practical. The Unionists will have to do the same and learn better maneuvering.

There is one big flaw within unionism though, and you see it on these threads also, usually espoused by our resident partitionist posters.

Unionism is full of never, never, never types clinging to the past, refusing to change with the times and modernise.

Nationalists on the other hand are all about looking to the future and showing a willingness to modernise and adapt for the future.

Unionism is on the way to its own self destruction because those within it refuse to adapt to the changing environment they now find themselves in, it's destined for failure on its current path.

Tyrone212

Choochtown wrote: »

I'm actually delighted about the inclusion of Ulster Scots.
I've just found out that I can speak it!
Something else to put on the "t'oul cv" ("the old curriculum vitae" for those non-Ulster Scots speakers).

The test is here for anyone who fancies it ...

https://www.ulsterscotsagency.com/news/article/399/test-your-knowledge-of-ulster-scots/

Jesus Christ . Craic is one of them but they spell it crack. Its pretty much just all slang words.

Choochtown

Tyrone212 wrote: »

Jesus Christ . Craic is one of them but they spell it crack. Its pretty much just all slang words.

Did ye hav a wee futter at yon test yersel?

Wat dod ye score?