Arlene, Edwin, her replacement and his replacement as leader of the DUP

McMurphy

blanch152 wrote: »

Haven't the Israelis tried that already, resettling Palestinians they don't agree with?

This has been suggested on boards before, and it is an incredibly crude proposal, asking people to leave their homes and communities behind and move somewhere else. A final solution by another name.

What a load of hyperbolic nonsense, by that metric, you must be firmly against Leo and Michaél wanting older people to leave their homes and downsizing them?

Elderly people living in large homes would be incentivised to move to smaller ones through a mix of tax incentives and grants, under new plans being considered by the Government.

Try reading your posts out loud to yourself before you submit them

FrancieBrady

Choochtown wrote: »

49% of Brits don't want to live in a country outside the European Union.

Is Brexit wrong in a "decent society"?

I think it is wrong not to help people who wish to leave but don't have the means. Theformer leader of the DUP would have the means but many wouldn't.

I would be in favour of helping people who no longer want to live in NI after a BP too.

You don't, fair enough.

Choochtown

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I think it is wrong not to help people who wish to leave but don't have the means. Theformer leader of the DUP would have the means but many wouldn't.

I would be in favour of helping people who no longer want to live in NI after a BP too.

You don't, fair enough.

The idea is totally impractical

How far would you be willing to take that idea?

Someone who can't live in a state that has legal abortion procedures?
Should we help fund those people to leave Ireland?

If after a border poll, a United Ireland is agreed upon, it is vital for peace and prosperity that the new framework is inclusive and welcoming.
More importantly it's also the right and proper thing to do.

After this is achieved I see no reason to fund anyone to leave and, if it is achieved fully and inclusively, why would anyone want to?

Exciting times ahead! This country is fantastic!

BonnieSituation

blanch152 wrote: »

This has already been tried in Fermanagh with polite knocks on the door requesting people to relocate "voluntarily".

There is no doubt that if there was such a scheme in place, there would also be knocks on the door with strong advice given to people to take up the voluntary option. That is the reality of the type of criminal behaviour in certain communities in Northern Ireland, which has been fostered by the two sectarian parties.

Do you have evidence of this?

breezy1985

Choochtown wrote: »

The idea is totally impractical

How far would you be willing to take that idea?

Someone who can't live in a state that has legal abortion procedures?
Should we help fund those people to leave Ireland?

If after a border poll, a United Ireland is agreed upon, it is vital for peace and prosperity that the new framework is inclusive and welcoming.
More importantly it's also the right and proper thing to do.

After this is achieved I see no reason to fund anyone to leave and, if it is achieved fully and inclusively, why would anyone want to?

Exciting times ahead! This country is fantastic!

It wouldn't be run or funded by Ireland it would be an attempt to repatriate UK citizens who want to keep living in the UK so it would need to be a Westminster funded gesture. Ireland would play no part in the process really.

Won't happen though cause the UK doesn't want the unionists and can't wait to be done with them

gormdubhgorm

Strazdas wrote: »

But quite a few people seem to abandoning it and moving towards the centre ground. The hardcore loyalist types won't obviously, but the growth in support for Alliance is very interesting to watch (a party that doesn't identify as either unionist or nationalist).

The only way this whole thing will move on if the NI electorate start voting Alliance on one side and the SDLP on the other. Unless there is a dramatic shift in attitudes of SF and the DUP I would guess there there could be many more years of fluting around. As shown with something so simple (inconsequential) on the face of it such as an ILA - low on effectiveness, but high symbolism.

If the DUP gets more of a 'mandate' because their stance what will it say? That Jeffery Donaldson fella is no eejit. He would be up there with Gerry Adams in political terms imo - a heavyweight.

He has the word play, ability to dodge questions, and being awkward when it suits to play to the grassroots. He knows the NI politics playbook. Plus he can be articulate and presents well in debates.

If I was of a NI Republican persuasion I would be worried about Donaldson in the Unionist hot seat. Poots would have been much easier adversary to face.

FrancieBrady

Choochtown wrote: »

The idea is totally impractical

How far would you be willing to take that idea?

Someone who can't live in a state that has legal abortion procedures?
Should we help fund those people to leave Ireland?

If after a border poll, a United Ireland is agreed upon, it is vital for peace and prosperity that the new framework is inclusive and welcoming.
More importantly it's also the right and proper thing to do.

After this is achieved I see no reason to fund anyone to leave and, if it is achieved fully and inclusively, why would anyone want to?

Exciting times ahead! This country is fantastic!

You wouldn't be in favour of helping them. That is fair enough.

I would not like to force people who would leave, if they had the means, to stay.

FrancieBrady

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

The only way this whole thing will move on if the NI electorate start voting Alliance on one side and the SDLP on the other. Unless there is a dramatic shift in attitudes of SF and the DUP I would guess there there could be many more years of fluting around with something so simple (inconsequential) on the face of it such as an ILA - low on effectiveness but high symbolism.

If the DUP gets more of a 'mandate' because their stance what will it say? That Jeffery Donaldson fella is no eejit. He would be up there with Gerry Adams in political terms imo - a heavyweight.

He has the word play, ability to dodge questions, and being awkward when it suits to play to the grassroots. He knows the NI politics playbook. Plus he can be articulate and presents well in debates.

If I was of a NI Republican persuasion I would be worried about Donaldson in the Unionist hot seat. Poots would have been much easier adversary to face.

Jeffery's problems are not nationalists or SF, it is his own crumbling party and pleasing belligerent Unionism/Loyalism.

Can he ride two horses? I don't think so and I think the readjustment in Unionism/Loyalism has a way to go.

Seth Brundle

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You wouldn't be in favour of helping them. That is fair enough.

I would not like to force people who would leave, if they had the means, to stay.

There is no suggestion that people would be forced to leave. Some people would choose to leave which is their perogative but that's quite different.
Nobody is being forced to remain in Ireland.

If enough people might need financial or other assistance to enable them to emigrate to Britain, then something can be agreed amongst the two countries as part of the transition programme. I would imagine that this would be fleshed out prior to any border poll. The advantage of living in the RoI is that we know how to properly prepare for a referendum!

Strazdas

Madeleine Birchfield wrote: »

Well the DUP have also been a huge factor in why Brexit was delayed multiple times, upsetting the Brexiteers in the UK's Conservative Party. The ascendent nationalist wing in the Conservatives also has a few fair bit of Little England types whose nationalism is more English than British and who would rather jettison Northern Ireland and Scotland if it means cutting off England completely from the EU and having complete soverignity over the country.

Indeed, the DUP are incredibly isolated. Do they have any allies at all? It seems even many English Conservatives don't like them (and certainly don't need them, not with an 80 seat majority).

Madeleine Birchfield

Strazdas wrote: »

Indeed, the DUP are incredibly isolated. Do they have any allies at all? It seems even many English Conservatives don't like them (and certainly don't need them, not with an 80 seat majority).

If they were smart, the unionists would have been making alliances with the American Christian right, about one of the only groups that share many the same views as they do, to convince them to make protecting traditional Protestant Christian values in Northern Ireland against the secular (or Catholic, in some quarters of America) Irish nationalists a core part of the American Christian right's agenda. I think the unionists would have won a significant victory if they managed to insert themselves into America's culture wars and convince half of America that the DUP and Ulster unionism is necessary for the protection of Christianity around the world.

But I haven't seen any signs of them doing anything like that at all in the past 20 years, and all signs indicate that they are willing to forego allies and fight this battle alone.

jimmycrackcorm

Seth Brundle wrote: »

There is no suggestion that people would be forced to leave. Some people would choose to leave which is their perogative but that's quite different.
Nobody is being forced to remain in Ireland.

If enough people might need financial or other assistance to enable them to emigrate to Britain, then something can be agreed amongst the two countries as part of the transition programme. I would imagine that this would be fleshed out prior to any border poll. The advantage of living in the RoI is that we know how to properly prepare for a referendum!

They won't leave anyway, why would they when nationalists have been always living in the north and didn't "migrate" to the south. When the Irish free state was formed, there was no mass exodus of unionists to Britain, or from the south to the north.

Junkyard Tom

I'd be surprised if anyone left at all, if anything there'll be people moving there to live.

FrancieBrady

Madeleine Birchfield wrote: »

If they were smart, the unionists would have been making alliances with the American Christian right, about one of the only groups that share many the same views as they do, to convince them to make protecting traditional Protestant Christian values in Northern Ireland against the secular (or Catholic, in some quarters of America) Irish nationalists a core part of the American Christian right's agenda. I think the unionists would have won a significant victory if they managed to insert themselves into America's culture wars and convince half of America that the DUP and Ulster unionism is necessary for the protection of Christianity around the world.

But I haven't seen any signs of them doing anything like that at all in the past 20 years, and all signs indicate that they are willing to forego allies and fight this battle alone.

I think it was Susan McKay, from the Unionist tradition herself who was making the point that the religious element need to be under siege to feel righteous.

Makes sense looking at their history.

Seth Brundle

Oh I know. It would be idle threats just like Ray D'Arcy who should have left a few years back but didn't.

Choochtown

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

I'd be surprised if anyone left at all, if anything there'll be people moving there to live.

Agree. A United Ireland with acceptance of all cultures, creeds and sexualities would be a much more desirable place to live in than the North currently is.

breezy1985

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

The only way this whole thing will move on if the NI electorate start voting Alliance on one side and the SDLP on the other. Unless there is a dramatic shift in attitudes of SF and the DUP I would guess there there could be many more years of fluting around. As shown with something so simple (inconsequential) on the face of it such as an ILA - low on effectiveness, but high symbolism.

If the DUP gets more of a 'mandate' because their stance what will it say? That Jeffery Donaldson fella is no eejit. He would be up there with Gerry Adams in political terms imo - a heavyweight.

He has the word play, ability to dodge questions, and being awkward when it suits to play to the grassroots. He knows the NI politics playbook. Plus he can be articulate and presents well in debates.

If I was of a NI Republican persuasion I would be worried about Donaldson in the Unionist hot seat. Poots would have been much easier adversary to face.

People are already switching to Alliance from the DUP side because the DUP have a major problem with the 21st century.
SF don't have this problem and have shown themselves to be much more willing to work with others and also not be complete cretins to minority social groups

Madeleine Birchfield

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

When the Irish free state was formed, there was no mass exodus of unionists to Britain, or from the south to the north.

That is not exactly true. Many of the English identifying Protestant unionists whose families came to Ireland from England during the Plantations did end up relocating after the Irish Free State was formed, as unionism was a minority in the Irish Free State. But the vast majority of them went to Britain rather than the north, because it was much more prosperous thsn the north, and the migration of unionists to Britain was also simultaneously accompanied with the migration of many Irish families to Britain itself. Ireland at the time was a net exporter of immigrats to Britain, and has been for much of the 19th and 20th century.

The Ulster unionists are different from the unionists in the Irish Free State mentuoned above in that their roots are in Scotland, and another century of separation has caused the cultures and values of the Ulster Unionists and the Scots to diverge to the point where they literally wouln't fit in Scotland (or the rest of Britain for that matter) anymore. They are literally stuck in their own sliver of County Antrim with nowhere else to go, watching themselves become a minoriry in a place where they once ruled with an iron fist.

dinorebel

Seth Brundle wrote: »

There is no suggestion that people would be forced to leave. Some people would choose to leave which is their perogative but that's quite different.
Nobody is being forced to remain in Ireland.

If enough people might need financial or other assistance to enable them to emigrate to Britain, then something can be agreed amongst the two countries as part of the transition programme. I would imagine that this would be fleshed out prior to any border poll. The advantage of living in the RoI is that we know how to properly prepare for a referendum!

Ignoring the result then trying again a few years later?

Penfailed

dinorebel wrote: »

Ignoring the result then trying again a few years later?

Except that's not what happened. The Irish government went back to Europe and renegotiated and then put it back to the people. Democracy in action.

Seth Brundle

dinorebel wrote: »

Ignoring the result then trying again a few years later?

Are you referring to the abortion or divorce referenda?
Or are you referring to the referenda on the Lisbon Treaty which was not the same referendum run twice despite the typical ill-informed snide comments from some posters?

blanch152

dinorebel wrote: »

Ignoring the result then trying again a few years later?

I think that is what the United Irelanders want as well. We have been told that after a border poll is lost, there will be one every seven years.

breezy1985

blanch152 wrote: »

I think that is what the United Irelanders want as well. We have been told that after a border poll is lost, there will be one every seven years.

A lot of people die and turn 18 in 7 years. A 12 year old today shouldnt have to live off decisions we make now when they becomes an adult 7 years down the road

Fionn1952

blanch152 wrote: »

I think that is what the United Irelanders want as well. We have been told that after a border poll is lost, there will be one every seven years.

.....shouldn't a democratic society continue to check if said society is still happy with previous choices made, or should we just have continued to prohibit gay marriage and abortions because we already voted on it?

Or do you have some arbitrary cutoff point past which duration it becomes democratic again? If so, why is your cutoff point any more sensible than that enshrined in the GFA, to which the majority of us all agreed?

Should a border poll be called and fail, the conditions for calling another one are no different to the current ones; the British SoS still has to feel it is likely to pass. Seven years is the minimum duration between polls. If a poll was called and came back with a very strong majority for remaining part of the UK, then I'd be confident it would be significantly longer than 7 years before a further one was called. If it was close and trends leading up to the poll indicated growing support for Unification, it would likely happen close to the 7 year mark.....because the objective is to follow the democratic will of the society at the time.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

I think that is what the United Irelanders want as well. We have been told that after a border poll is lost, there will be one every seven years.

Who 'told' you that?

One 'can' be held a minimum of 7 years.. Read the GFA ffs.

blanch152

blanch152 wrote: »

I think that is what the United Irelanders want as well. We have been told that after a border poll is lost, there will be one every seven years.

You really haven't read that correctly, even after all these years, interesting insight though.

lurleen lumpkin

BLM? WLM? Nah, BBM

When I see tricolours flying on top of bonfires, I think, 'Bless, this is their way to slowly acclimatise for when it's the flag of their country. Baby steps young Willie, baby steps.'

gormdubhgorm

lurleen lumpkin wrote: »

BLM? WLM? Nah, BBM

9500 - ish pallets, it at least shows they are into the recycling.

Granadino

Someone needs to reply to this bloke and explain to him what a bear is...

https://twitter.com/JL1690/status/1409571694180802563