Sex Tips from the Bishops for Teenagers

Jim2007

Pherekydes wrote: »

We got married in a registry office. We had 54 guests present. They're not as bad as people make out. No religious BS either.

But most people want the church involved at key times in their lives, admittedly it a rubber stamp job. It’s the same all over Europe, churches are empty except for the big occasions. It’s just how people are.

Tpcl20

Tpcl20 wrote: »

Multi-denominal patronages are the fastest-growing school type within Ireland. It's clear what the public want. The Church needs to be made hand over the lands the schools are built on. They supply a paltry amount of money in Capitation these days. The Constitution will need to be changed and the Education Act updated.

Patronage means the group that are tasked with the running and the upkeep of the "ethos"; hence this bizarre intervention by the RCC to try and capture the hearts and groins of the youth before secularists produce a curriculum educating them about their anatomy, sexual experiences, relationships and consent.

Most private fee paying schools are religious. This indicates that Irish elites are happy enough with it, despite what the masses want. Anyway I think Catholic schools are over subscribed. Multi denominational is still religious by the way.

The reason isn’t religion of course, but higher standards. Is there a religious school in Ireland with religious teachers for the last 20 years?

Jim2007

Sardonicat wrote: »

Eh, France's state education is famously secular.

Sure it is, exactly the same as Switzerland... They are secular in favor of Christianity... you can’t get away from people’s beliefs it always leaks out. Do you seriously think teachers will stop kids from discussing Christmas etc in school?

Cilldara_2000

Jim2007 wrote: »

You live in a part of the world with a Christian ethos. And there is no chance of the church being taken out of state education in Ireland, France, Italy, Spain etc... expecting the majority of the populations of Europe will change their ways is just not realistic. So I guess if it’s important to you, you will have to be the one to change.

We have a secular education system here in Switzerland, but it just means that the kids split up for religion classes and go to the church houses. But the school still celebrates Christmas etc...

[BTW, your tone and word choices don’t add anything to your argument]

I don’t follow what model these countries use but as far as I am concerned we can have no claim to being a proper republic with this ongoing fundamental breach of the principle of separation of church and state. If the church paid the full bill for the running of national schools, I’d say let them at it. But they don’t. He who pays the piper calls the tune and currently the taxpayer pays the piper. So as taxpayers and voters, we are fully entitled to demand change in this rotten little set up to stop deluded old fools from filling children’s heads with nonsense fairytales about their imaginary friends.

Geuze

KevRossi wrote: »

So many people in this country have no other option, especially those in rural areas.

How about getting the fcuking church out of schools for once and for all. Let people send their kids to Sunday School if religion is so important to them.

So every school would be a State-owned VEC/ETB?

Sardonicat

Jim2007 wrote: »

Sure it is, exactly the same as Switzerland... They are secular in favor of Christianity... you can’t get away from people’s beliefs it always leaks out. Do you seriously think teachers will stop kids from discussing Christmas etc in school?

That's vastly different from a denominational, religious education. "What did you get for Christmas, Pierre?" , is hardly religious education.

Jim2007

Cilldara_2000 wrote: »

I don’t follow what model these countries use but as far as I am concerned we can have no claim to being a proper republic with this ongoing fundamental breach of the principle of separation of church and state. If the church paid the full bill for the running of national schools, I’d say let them at it. But they don’t. He who pays the piper calls the tune and currently the taxpayer pays the piper. So as taxpayers and voters, we are fully entitled to demand change in this rotten little set up to stop deluded old fools from filling children’s heads with nonsense fairytales about their imaginary friends.

You are entitled to demand whatever you like and believe whatever every you like. But if you want to live in a Republic you have to respect the democratic right of the people to decide the outcome and they don’t seem to agree with you. And it will remain so until you can persuade them to do otherwise.

Geuze

KevRossi wrote: »

How about getting the fcuking church out of schools for once and for all. Let people send their kids to Sunday School if religion is so important to them.

Maybe I am odd, but I have different aspirations.

I aspire that my kids get a Jesuit education.



I one taught VEC lads, Jaysus the apathy could be felt in the room.

I then taught Ursuline girls, completely different, a joy to teach.

Why would anybody want every school to be State owned / VEC / ETB?

Do we want all schools to be like UK comprehensives?

Why not look up, why not aspire to better?

Macron was taught by the Jesuits, so was Joyce.

Yet you want your kids to go to the tech?

Geuze

landofthetree wrote: »

Why are Catholic schools so popular at a time of increased secularisation?
Opinion: Academic strength, a sense of community and strength of purpose are just some of the reasons behind their ongoing popularity with parents

Ethos / quality / high standards.

If the choice is between a State-owned tech / VEC / ETB and a quality education in a Catholic school, you can see why many parents in UK and Ireland choose the latter.

Geuze

Overheal wrote: »

I somehow doubt that if Ireland invested in modern school facilities with enough load to transfer students out of the catholic school system, that most parents would still feel as compelled to choose between either.

Correct.

In the UK, people actually move house to ensure their children can access church schools.

Cilldara_2000

Cilldara_2000 wrote: »

I don’t follow what model these countries use but as far as I am concerned we can have no claim to being a proper republic with this ongoing fundamental breach of the principle of separation of church and state. If the church paid the full bill for the running of national schools, I’d say let them at it. But they don’t. He who pays the piper calls the tune and currently the taxpayer pays the piper. So as taxpayers and voters, we are fully entitled to demand change in this rotten little set up to stop deluded old fools from filling children’s heads with nonsense fairytales about their imaginary friends.

The American or French secular model of education isn’t the only system for a republic. In fact the US had local schools that were run by churches for years. Only in the late 19C did that change.

Anyway Ireland has also funded COI schools. And. Anglicans don’t want their own ethos to disappear.

Cilldara_2000

Jim2007 wrote: »

You are entitled to demand whatever you like and believe whatever every you like. But if you want to live in a Republic you have to respect the democratic right of the people to decide the outcome and they don’t seem to agree with you. And it will remain so until you can persuade them to do otherwise.

The people were never asked if they wanted this and most parents have no choice due to the ongoing monopoly.

osarusan

You can see it in detail here:

https://www.cpsma.ie/rse-primary-programme-flourish/

In most of those lesson plans, the first 90% is just the kind of thing you'd expect to see at primary level, and then in the last 10% there's a 'reflection' section where they shoehorn in a fairly ham-fisted reference to God.

As an example of that, the final lesson for 6th class students is called 'It's ok to say No' and uses typical examples of peer pressure (older kids offering a smoke, going into a shop when not allowed to). Then they discuss these situations and pressures, and roleplay saying no to them.

Even the reflection is fine until the last paragraph:

Reflection

Invite the children to close their eyes and sit still with their feet on the floor. Then read the following:

As we get older we are given more responsibility. You might find that your parents allow you to go places and do things that they wouldn’t let you do before. Sometimes you might find yourself in tricky situations and you will have decisions to make. It might feel like it’s easier to go along with whatever the crowd is doing but you can say no if you’re not comfortable. It’s important to do what you know to be right.

When we are with a group of friends we need to respect that everyone has to make up their own mind. We shouldn’t pressure others to do something they don’t want to do. If someone says no, that’s OK. We should accept what they have decided and not make fun of them or try to make them change their minds.

We ask God’s help as we grow up to make good decisions for ourselves, to have the courage to speak out when necessary and to respect other people’s decisions, even when we don’t agree with them. Amen.

4th class lesson 3 is on puberty, and it seems ok. Another puberty lesson is 5th Class lesson 1, and it's fine also, has a little questionnaire they work on with an adult they feel comfortable talking to. Then at the end, there's the bit about how God is helping us all the time.

People can look through my posts and see what I think about the Catholic church in Irish education, but actually I think that (final part of the Reflection aside) the content here is basically fine.

Geuze

Cilldara_2000 wrote: »

So as taxpayers and voters, we are fully entitled to demand change in this rotten little set up to stop deluded old fools from filling children’s heads with nonsense fairytales about their imaginary friends.

The typical taxpayer wants the church to run the schools.

Please note: Jesus is not nonsense, or a fairytale.

Cilldara_2000

fvp4 wrote: »

The American or French secular model of education isn’t the only system for a republic. In fact the US had local schools that were run by churches for years. Only in the late 19C did that change.

Anyway Ireland has also funded COI schools. And. Anglicans don’t want their own ethos to disappear.

I have no gripe with parents choosing religious education for their children if that’s what they want and can afford to pay for it. I just object to paying for religious education. The state shouldn’t be giving a leg up to any religion.

Cilldara_2000

Geuze wrote: »

The typical taxpayer wants the church to run the schools.

Please note: Jesus is not nonsense, or a fairytale.

Source?

(For both please :pac:)

Geuze

osarusan wrote: »

People can look through my posts and see what I think about the Catholic church in Irish education, but actually I think that (final part of the Reflection aside) the content here is basically fine.

A very reasonable post, unlike some here.

Geuze

Cilldara_2000 wrote: »

Source?

(For both please :pac:)

If people didn't want churches to run schools, that would have been changed by now.

Politicians respond to voters demands.

There is no widespread demand to change the main patron of most schools.

Geuze

Cilldara_2000 wrote: »

Source?

(For both please :pac:)

Historians widely accept the historical figure of Jesus.

Geuze

Cilldara_2000 wrote: »

I have no gripe with parents choosing religious education for their children if that’s what they want and can afford to pay for it. I just object to paying for religious education. The state shouldn’t be giving a leg up to any religion.

It doesn't.

It pays for all schools.

Jewish, Protestant, Muslim, multi-denominational, etc.

Cilldara_2000

Geuze wrote: »

If people didn't want churches to run schools, that would have been changed by now.

Politicians respond to voters demands.

There is no widespread demand to change the main patron of most schools.

Plurality in education is a stated aim of more than one government by now and IIRC the former RC archbishop of Dublin.

People want change, it’s happening already but just at the typical Irish snails pace. Ofc it’s no surprise that vested interests are stymieing the democratic will of the people. It often happens so I’m very much skeptical of your claim that change happens just because people want it.

john_fe12020

Geuze wrote: »

The typical taxpayer wants the church to run the schools.

Please note: Jesus is not nonsense, or a fairytale.

In fairness Geuze, you're use of please note sounds as if it's a fact, one that everyone should remember and adhere to. It's the complete opposite - the choice of religion is exactly that - a choice. The monopoly of the Church in education is wrong, when there is a decrease in numbers of the population that have a relationship with the Church, the people should have the choice of a religious based education or not.

But the main point here, why is the Church, who are evidently anti (or at least a hard sceptic) of science, involved in orientating a science based topic - reproduction?! We've all seen the videos of the older lady giving sex education classes that are blatantly flawed. Yes, their opinions have softened to allow some of the now accepted practices be mentioned in class, but quite frankly if my future child turns out to be gay, I would want them supported by their educator on this topic, not shunned

Wallet Inspector

I think church and state need to be separate too - doesn't mean I think faith-based schools should be banned though.

I believe that Jesus Christ existed also - different to God however.

DerekC16

I see the usual suspects on twitter sperging out over this. The same ones that want junior infants taught about **** and transexuals

One eyed Jack

Cilldara_2000 wrote: »

I have no gripe with parents choosing religious education for their children if that’s what they want and can afford to pay for it. I just object to paying for religious education. The state shouldn’t be giving a leg up to any religion.

Why should they have to pay for it? You’re certainly not paying for it. Free education is provided for by the State, and the State doesn’t give a leg up to any religion either, it hasn’t done since 1973.

One eyed Jack

john_fe12020 wrote: »

But the main point here, why is the Church, who are evidently anti (or at least a hard sceptic) of science, involved in orientating a science based topic - reproduction?! We've all seen the videos of the older lady giving sex education classes that are blatantly flawed.

It’s not just a science based topic? I’m guessing the video you’re referring to isn’t this one, but your comment reminded me of it all the same -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wcpc0uX3nZQ

Class

john_fe12020

One eyed Jack wrote: »

It’s not just a science based topic? I’m guessing the video you’re referring to isn’t this one, but your comment reminded me of it all the same -

Class

Hehe no that wasn't what came to mind, but thanks for the reminder, completely forgotten about that scene!

BTW, if anyone is interested to see what a secular, effective sex education programme looks like, look at Holland's system. Holland has one of the lowest rates of teen pregnancy, one of the highest rates of positive first sexual experiences, and nine out of ten used contraceptives the first time they had sex.
From speaking to a number of Dutch friends about this previously, these figures tell the real picture, they are significantly more clued in then the average Irish school goer. Not only that, they are much more comfortable at having a mature conversation about anything regarding sexuality, whereas I'd lay down to all of ye the first pint in a pub on me, if this is talked about in the Dáil without a snigger, immature remark, or moment of awkwardness one of our representatives.

Edit: If anyone interested, look at this short article - from roughly halfway dwon it talks about Holland, the first half is the Yanks perspective https://dukecenterforglobalreproductivehealth.org/2018/07/19/sex-ed-goes-global-the-netherlands/

Squeeonline

Geuze wrote: »

The typical taxpayer wants the church to run the schools.

Please note: Jesus is not nonsense, or a fairytale.

Geuze wrote: »

Historians widely accept the historical figure of Jesus.

Oh yes the general acceptance of a person existing is exactly the same as this person being the son of god, immaculately conceived, and being able to perform miracles.

Also I love that the "typical taxpayer" has a sample size of 1: you. Considering the amount of abuse cases in catholic/religious institutions (not just schools), I bet that if people were polled in an unbiased way with evidence on both sides, they would come out on the side of wanting reduced religious involvement.

That all being said, I went to a catholic secondary school (like there is a real choice in Ireland) and it was largely a good experience. Despite their best attempts at indoctrination I managed to make it out less religious than I went in.

I would send a hypothetical child of mine to the same school but with anti-religious instructions at home. However if there was a school of equal quality etc without a religious involvement, that would be the preference.

mariaalice

Despite what a minority think the majority don't care about who is running their local school they care about how much it costs, at best the majority are culturally catholic and it not a massive issue for them.

L1011

Geuze wrote: »

Why not look up, why not aspire to better?

Macron was taught by the Jesuits, so was Joyce.

Yet you want your kids to go to the tech?

You consider either of those to be something to look up to? Seriously? Even just looking at how emotionally damaged both of them clearly are if you're trying to find things that could be attributed to their education

If given the choice of my kids growing up like Joyce / Macron or *any other option at all* education wise, I'm going for the other option.