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Sex Tips from the Bishops for Teenagers
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The easiest way is to force schools that receive government funding become areligious - not even teach about religion at all.
Unlike many atheists who simply want religious indoctrination entirely removed from schools I would say I would be happy enough with having a situation where their ethos based curriculum be extra curricular to an ENTIRELY secular National Curriculum. Rather than remove it entirely.
I would have no issue with them then using the facilities financed by themselves or the state to then perpetuate their own particular hobbies AFTER and OUTSIDE the national curriculum. And if some kids leave the school and go home after the National Curriculum at 3pm say.... while some others stay in the school to attend the extra curricular subjects related to the school ethos.... then what harm?
In fact my feeling/suspicion would be that this would be BETTER for the church given the state of affairs today. In my experience, limited as it may be but certainly wider than average, the attempts to teach Catholicism have entirely failed on our population.
Almost no one I ever talk to on the subject seems to have the faintest notion of what the actual dogmas and tenets of the catholic faith even are. And when I was performing science experiments on Catholics Crackers and talking to catholics about it, they were mostly divided into three main very different opinions on what the Eucharist even is/means.
It seems to me that if you want someone to learn anything about Catholicism, the last thing you want to do is send them to any Catholic School of today. I think a more extra curricular approach would allow them to do it better. Which as an "atheist" (I never call myself one, but others do) would seem to be against my agenda.... but actually I have found nothing turns a person off their religion quicker than being shown the specifics of what they are meant to be beleiving.Deleted User wrote: »"People have to go to Catholic schools, there's no other choice!
They do have a choice
Oh, yeah, what choice do they have?
They can choose to not go to Catholic schools"
Are you for real?
Exactly. There is a gulf of difference between choice in theory and choice in practice. And saying things like "Of course you have a choice, you can go form your own school" is a semantic pretence that gulf does not exist. As if anyone has the time, resources or even know how to go about such things. Oh the dripping privilege of someone who CAN add an hour each way commute to their day to enrol the child in the school of their choice when many people A) do not even have that choice or
do not have the time, money, resources or means to avail of more distant choices where they even exist.
The attitude is one of pure, dripping, privilege acting as if everyone has that same privilege when many people do not.
All the while under a constitution demanding that parents supply a "Minimum standard of education" to their children. So of course they are going to avail of whatever school choice they can. Accusations that its them as "Anti theists supporting the theist status quo" are petty, ridiculous, and agenda driven and blind to the actual realities many families live under.
There is also the ridiculous notion that you can merely "opt out" of religion class which was also mentioned earlier in the thread. As if. The issue there of course, as has been pointed out many times before, is that of the "Integrated Curriculum" that has been cleverly engineered over time. Quite often opting out of religion class is entirely useless, because religious instruction and indoctrination permeates the other subjects on the curriculum too.
Though actually I am intensely uncomfortable with the notion that parents even should be able to "opt out" of classes on behalf of their children if that class goes against their particular conscience. Whatever a parents personal hobby, it should not be justification for impinging on the minimum standard of secular fact based education for a child. Parents should not be seen as owners of their children, but stewards of them.Beechwoodspark wrote: »If ppl take part in baptisms communions confirmations etc voluntarily I would consider them catholic. Am I mad for saying that ?
Considering how labile the term "catholic" has become I don't think you'd be mad for calling anyone catholic these days if you wanted to. A survey conducted at the Bishops Conference in Ireland found that many "Catholics" do not subscribe to some of the core tenets of the faith. A significant % of the Catholics do not even think there is a god. Which I would have thought was a fairly low bar to qualify for the term. But perhaps I am just as mad as you.
But certainly in my anecdotal experience the people doing things like Communion and Confirmation are doing it not because they are catholic or they have any interest in the faith. But because their own kids pressured them into doing it with the whole "everyone else is doing it and I want to do what my friends are doing" thing. Motivated in no small way, I am guessing, by their peers talking about how lucrative the day tends to be financially.Please note: Jesus is not nonsense, or a fairytale.
And people who believe the earth is flat would also SAY that their ideas are not nonsense. But there is good reasons why their claims are not represented in geography class.
Now if at any point you, or the flat earthers, were to come up with.... finally.... the first SHRED of argument, evidence, data or reasoning that lends even a modicum of credence to the fairy tale nonsense.... that would be a different thing.
But until that point, there is good reason why many people argue for having peoples hobbies removed from an education curriculum.Historians widely accept the historical figure of Jesus.
Then why do we need religion in schools at all? If the historicity was as secure as you think........ though actually its quite a bit more contentious than you are letting on...... then historical figures tend to get covered in..... well.... history class. Historical literature tends to get covered in the English Syllabus and similar.
Why not strip away all the unsubstantiated nonsense about magical zombies, virgin births, and miracles..... much of which many Catholics do not even believe themselves as it turns out....... and put the factual parts in the fact based curriculum of other subjects where they belong?0 -
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nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »Unlike many atheists who simply want religious indoctrination entirely removed from schools I would say I would be happy enough with having a situation where their ethos based curriculum be extra curricular to an ENTIRELY secular National Curriculum. Rather than remove it entirely.
I would have no issue with them then using the facilities financed by themselves or the state to then perpetuate their own particular hobbies AFTER and OUTSIDE the national curriculum. And if some kids leave the school and go home after the National Curriculum at 3pm say.... while some others stay in the school to attend the extra curricular subjects related to the school ethos.... then what harm?
In fact my feeling/suspicion would be that this would be BETTER for the church given the state of affairs today. In my experience, limited as it may be but certainly wider than average, the attempts to teach Catholicism have entirely failed on our population.
Almost no one I ever talk to on the subject seems to have the faintest notion of what the actual dogmas and tenets of the catholic faith even are. And when I was performing science experiments on Catholics Crackers and talking to catholics about it, they were mostly divided into three main very different opinions on what the Eucharist even is/means.
It seems to me that if you want someone to learn anything about Catholicism, the last thing you want to do is send them to any Catholic School of today. I think a more extra curricular approach would allow them to do it better. Which as an "atheist" (I never call myself one, but others do) would seem to be against my agenda.... but actually I have found nothing turns a person off their religion quicker than being shown the specifics of what they are meant to be beleiving.
Exactly. There is a gulf of difference between choice in theory and choice in practice. And saying things like "Of course you have a choice, you can go form your own school" is a semantic pretence that gulf does not exist. As if anyone has the time, resources or even know how to go about such things. Oh the dripping privilege of someone who CAN add an hour each way commute to their day to enrol the child in the school of their choice when many people A) do not even have that choice or do not have the time, money, resources or means to avail of more distant choices where they even exist.
The attitude is one of pure, dripping, privilege acting as if everyone has that same privilege when many people do not.
All the while under a constitution demanding that parents supply a "Minimum standard of education" to their children. So of course they are going to avail of whatever school choice they can. Accusations that its them as "Anti theists supporting the theist status quo" are petty, ridiculous, and agenda driven and blind to the actual realities many families live under.
There is also the ridiculous notion that you can merely "opt out" of religion class which was also mentioned earlier in the thread. As if. The issue there of course, as has been pointed out many times before, is that of the "Integrated Curriculum" that has been cleverly engineered over time. Quite often opting out of religion class is entirely useless, because religious instruction and indoctrination permeates the other subjects on the curriculum too.
Though actually I am intensely uncomfortable with the notion that parents even should be able to "opt out" of classes on behalf of their children if that class goes against their particular conscience. Whatever a parents personal hobby, it should not be justification for impinging on the minimum standard of secular fact based education for a child. Parents should not be seen as owners of their children, but stewards of them.
Considering how labile the term "catholic" has become I don't think you'd be mad for calling anyone catholic these days if you wanted to. A survey conducted at the Bishops Conference in Ireland found that many "Catholics" do not subscribe to some of the core tenets of the faith. A significant % of the Catholics do not even think there is a god. Which I would have thought was a fairly low bar to qualify for the term. But perhaps I am just as mad as you.
But certainly in my anecdotal experience the people doing things like Communion and Confirmation are doing it not because they are catholic or they have any interest in the faith. But because their own kids pressured them into doing it with the whole "everyone else is doing it and I want to do what my friends are doing" thing. Motivated in no small way, I am guessing, by their peers talking about how lucrative the day tends to be financially.
And people who believe the earth is flat would also SAY that their ideas are not nonsense. But there is good reasons why their claims are not represented in geography class.
Now if at any point you, or the flat earthers, were to come up with.... finally.... the first SHRED of argument, evidence, data or reasoning that lends even a modicum of credence to the fairy tale nonsense.... that would be a different thing.
But until that point, there is good reason why many people argue for having peoples hobbies removed from an education curriculum.
Then why do we need religion in schools at all? If the historicity was as secure as you think........ though actually its quite a bit more contentious than you are letting on...... then historical figures tend to get covered in..... well.... history class. Historical literature tends to get covered in the English Syllabus and similar.
Why not strip away all the unsubstantiated nonsense about magical zombies, virgin births, and miracles..... much of which many Catholics do not even believe themselves as it turns out....... and put the factual parts in the fact based curriculum of other subjects where they belong?
Best post on this thread by far. Excellent.0 -
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Cilldara_2000 wrote: »Punching the pope leads to automatic excommunication. .
I'm open to correction, but I think you can get away with it if you're drunk
Seriously.0 -
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