French generals cause backlash with 'civil war' warning

biko

Second letter from military staff says threat of punishment ‘quite perverse’ and repeats: ‘Civil war is brewing in France’

Serving members of the French military have fired a second salvo at Emmanuel Macron’s government in an open letter accusing it of “cowardice, deceit, perversion”, just weeks after a first letter said the country was heading for “civil war”.

French far-left presidential hopeful Jean-Luc Mélenchon said: “They are seditious and cowardly. I’m not afraid to say my name and what I will do if I’m elected and that’s to purge the army of its dissident members.”

Fun fact about Mélenchon; a Paris court handed him a suspended three-month prison term and a 8,000 euros fine in December 2019 for intimidating officials who were investigating him over possible funding irregularities.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/10/french-soldiers-accuse-government-of-trying-to-silence-warnings-of-civil-war

Overheal

biko wrote: »

Second letter from military staff says threat of punishment ‘quite perverse’ and repeats: ‘Civil war is brewing in France’

Serving members of the French military have fired a second salvo at Emmanuel Macron’s government in an open letter accusing it of “cowardice, deceit, perversion”, just weeks after a first letter said the country was heading for “civil war”.

French far-left presidential hopeful Jean-Luc Mélenchon said: “They are seditious and cowardly. I’m not afraid to say my name and what I will do if I’m elected and that’s to purge the army of its dissident members.”

Fun fact about Mélenchon; a Paris court handed him a suspended three-month prison term and a 8,000 euros fine in December 2019 for intimidating officials who were investigating him over possible funding irregularities.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/10/french-soldiers-accuse-government-of-trying-to-silence-warnings-of-civil-war

Does this fun fact include the exclusion of any charges arising from that investigation?

BloodBath

Overheal wrote: »

Hey I'm getting good at turning off cookies no matter the language barrier :pac:

First link is **** journalism: they mention the mosques are "out of compliance" but fail to say how, " Fourteen were closed for non-compliance with safety standards," but which standards, wet floor, not enough handicapped stalls, inciting violence etc? I'd like a lot more info for what the mosques are alleged to be doing wrong. That type of song and dance is how abortion clinics are shut down in the US: 'oh, you need surgical grade facilities to give someone plan B' etc. - like, what safety issues are endemic to 89 mosques and no other place of worship? Is this a building code thing and if so who built them? Surely a licensed French contractor? Show me the incitement of violence emanating from these mosques, someone please.

There's an extension for chrome called "I don't care about cookies" that will automatically block them. I'm sure there's similar extensions for other browsers.

An essential extension along with adblocker that also blocks youtube ads.

Overheal

BloodBath wrote: »

There's an extension for chrome called "I don't care about cookies" that will automatically block them. I'm sure there's similar extensions for other browsers.

An essential extension along with adblocker that also blocks youtube ads.

Added. feelsgood.png

Samsonsmasher

biko wrote: »

Second letter from military staff says threat of punishment ‘quite perverse’ and repeats: ‘Civil war is brewing in France’

Serving members of the French military have fired a second salvo at Emmanuel Macron’s government in an open letter accusing it of “cowardice, deceit, perversion”, just weeks after a first letter said the country was heading for “civil war”.

French far-left presidential hopeful Jean-Luc Mélenchon said: “They are seditious and cowardly. I’m not afraid to say my name and what I will do if I’m elected and that’s to purge the army of its dissident members.”

Fun fact about Mélenchon; a Paris court handed him a suspended three-month prison term and a 8,000 euros fine in December 2019 for intimidating officials who were investigating him over possible funding irregularities.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/10/french-soldiers-accuse-government-of-trying-to-silence-warnings-of-civil-war

The French military hasn't experienced this since the days of the OAS in the 1960s

Kermit.de.frog

Politicians need to start taking feedback and taking on board the views on immigration of their national constituencies instead of ignoring them.

This is a big part of the problem.

People see their local areas around them changing unrecognisably often in a small period of time and they feel powerless to do anything.

It must look like leaders are totally out of touch on the ground.

There is no surprise when instability grows, it strikes me as the inevitable consequences of their own policies.

ancapailldorcha

biko wrote: »

Second letter from military staff says threat of punishment ‘quite perverse’ and repeats: ‘Civil war is brewing in France’

Serving members of the French military have fired a second salvo at Emmanuel Macron’s government in an open letter accusing it of “cowardice, deceit, perversion”, just weeks after a first letter said the country was heading for “civil war”.

French far-left presidential hopeful Jean-Luc Mélenchon said: “They are seditious and cowardly. I’m not afraid to say my name and what I will do if I’m elected and that’s to purge the army of its dissident members.”

Fun fact about Mélenchon; a Paris court handed him a suspended three-month prison term and a 8,000 euros fine in December 2019 for intimidating officials who were investigating him over possible funding irregularities.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/10/french-soldiers-accuse-government-of-trying-to-silence-warnings-of-civil-war

Are ad hominems really all you have?

The military shouldn't be calling the shots. This shouldn't even need to be pointed out. I get that sizeable chunks of the modern right despise democracy but if they can't win elections, that's their problem.

ek motor

biko wrote: »

Second letter from military staff says threat of punishment ‘quite perverse’ and repeats: ‘Civil war is brewing in France’

Serving members of the French military have fired a second salvo at Emmanuel Macron’s government in an open letter accusing it of “cowardice, deceit, perversion”, just weeks after a first letter said the country was heading for “civil war”.

French far-left presidential hopeful Jean-Luc Mélenchon said: “They are seditious and cowardly. I’m not afraid to say my name and what I will do if I’m elected and that’s to purge the army of its dissident members.”

Fun fact about Mélenchon; a Paris court handed him a suspended three-month prison term and a 8,000 euros fine in December 2019 for intimidating officials who were investigating him over possible funding irregularities.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/10/french-soldiers-accuse-government-of-trying-to-silence-warnings-of-civil-war

I like the use of the word 'purge'. Good way for a looney leftist to out himself.

ek motor

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Are ad hominems really all you have?

The military shouldn't be calling the shots. This shouldn't even need to be pointed out. I get that sizeable chunks of the modern right despise democracy but if they can't win elections, that's their problem.

How did you feel about Trump being president, Brexit, Boris Johnson becoming PM ? All democratic wins for the right.

The ad-hominems over the last 4 years were emanating from the leftist media .

ancapailldorcha

ek motor wrote: »

How did you feel about Trump being president, Brexit, Boris Johnson becoming PM ? All democratic wins for the right.

The ad-hominems over the last 4 years were emanating from the leftist media .

Trump won because of America's dysfunctional system that elected a literal loser. Johnson and Brexit are democratically legitimate though.

It's odd that right wing types bleat endlessly about leftist politicians and then boast like here of things like this.

ek motor

ek motor wrote: »

How did you feel about Trump being president, Brexit, Boris Johnson becoming PM ? All democratic wins for the right.

The ad-hominems over the last 4 years were emanating from the leftist media .

We might not have liked it. But I don't believe any of us objected to it occurring. I don't recall Capaill or anyone else calling for a military coup to oust either Boris or Trump. Impeachment votes for the latter etc was democratic and had good grounds for doing so. So yep, military coups and support of them seems to be coming from the right.

ancapailldorcha

Deleted User wrote: »

We might not have liked it. But I don't believe any of us objected to it occurring. I don't recall Capaill or anyone else calling for a military coup to oust either Boris or Trump. Impeachment votes for the latter etc was democratic and had good grounds for doing so. So yep, military coups and support of them seems to be coming from the right.

As the old saying goes, "A thief thinks everyone is stealing from him". Authoritarians are judging others by their own standards and expecting the same opinions and actions from them that they have and do themselves.

ancapailldorcha

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

As the old saying goes, "A thief thinks everyone is stealing from him". Authoritarians are judging others by their own standards and expecting the same opinions and actions from them that they have and do themselves.

And the military overthrow nonsense exists in the US too. Posters complaining about it not getting major coverage etc but realistically the odds of such a coup occurring are incredibly low. So regardless of how respected their names were in past, by attaching to this they've become dangerous loons.

TomTomTim

Deleted User wrote: »

We might not have liked it. But I don't believe any of us objected to it occurring. I don't recall Capaill or anyone else calling for a military coup to oust either Boris or Trump. Impeachment votes for the latter etc was democratic and had good grounds for doing so. So yep, military coups and support of them seems to be coming from the right.

Posters like yourself wanted a second Brexit vote for an age, you were trying to frame Trump as an illegitimate president for years, claiming he only won because of Russian interference. This type of historical revisionism only works on people who have the memory of a gold fish.

TomTomTim

TomTomTim wrote: »

Posters like yourself wanted a second Brexit vote for an age, you were trying to frame Trump as an illegitimate president for years, claiming he only won because of Russian interference. This historical revisionism only works on people who have the memory of a gold fish.

I'm pretty fine with the UK brexiting, it's a pretty silly thing to do but I'm fine with respecting the result. Russian interference was most definitely a factor in the election, I have no idea if it determined the outcome.

Anyway, can you point to me or Capaill calling for a military coup to overthrow trump? In fact, I think you'd struggle to find anyone on the site calling for such a thing. It's a pretty right wing thing to argue for... Do you want the French military to engage in a coup? This is the key thing, that absolute is undermining a democratic state.

Kaybaykwah

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm pretty fine with the UK brexiting, it's a pretty silly thing to do but I'm fine with respecting the result. Russian interference was most definitely a factor in the election, I have no idea if it determined the outcome.

Anyway, can you point to me or Capaill calling for a military coup to overthrow trump? In fact, I think you'd struggle to find anyone on the site calling for such a thing. It's a pretty right wing thing to argue for... Do you want the French military to engage in a coup? This is the key thing, that absolute is undermipning a democratic state.

That's right. The "devoir de réserve" also applies to the gendarmerie, since it is a part of the military. They knew very well that their action was not acceptable, and that they have other avenues of communicating with politicians, not a public letter.

There's not going to be any kind of coup. It's a public statement seeking to draw the attention of the public towards a problem that the generals consider to be important. This wasn't a message for the politicians. It was a message to the electorate who have supported those politicians, and the public servants who operate the government.

biko

I'm still waiting for someone to say there is absolutely no risk of unrest or civil war in France and the generals are wrong.

Timberrrrrrrr

biko wrote: »

I'm still waiting for someone to say there is absolutely no risk of unrest or civil war in France and the generals are wrong.

Unrest (riots/protest?) Is always possible, civil war? Never gonna happen.

ancapailldorcha

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Unrest (riots/protest?) Is always possible, civil war? Never gonna happen.

I'd agree with this. The French seem to be a lot more assertive than the tired old imported Simpsons trope would have you believe.

This just stinks of the grumbling of some irrelevant old men.

ancapailldorcha

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I'd agree with this. The French seem to be a lot more assertive than the tired old imported Simpsons trope would have you believe.

This just stinks of the grumbling of some irrelevant old men.

Hardly irrelevant. France has a long tradition with it's military, which means that even apart from it's standing/reservist forces, there are a lot of people with historical links to the military.

These generals will likely have some influence over those people, whether they're within the military itself, or by having some link to it. As such, their letter will likely reach out most to that population, wherever they might be in France. Just as there will be people who trust the opinions of those within the military, with regards to the threats facing France.

In Ireland, the military has little status, and is more of an afterthought. Sure, there's some pride for a minority of Irish people, but the majority know little about what they get up to, and/or couldn't care less. That's not the case with France, with a long military history, and more importantly, they've retained a sense of nationalism, and pride in their military.

ek motor

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Trump won because of America's dysfunctional system that elected a literal loser. Johnson and Brexit are democratically legitimate though.

It's odd that right wing types bleat endlessly about leftist politicians and then boast like here of things like this.

Utter tosh. The left leaning media attempted to discredit Trumps victory by inferring completely unproven Russian involvement. It went on for years. Both Democrats and Republicans signed up to the electoral college system so they knew exactly the criteria required for victory which Trump obtained.

I love the 'literal loser' sneer, that result stills grates with leftists 5 years later , superb .

Chips Lovell

Civil war? No, not on your nelly. I'd say it's no coincidence there's a presidential election next year.

Dyr

Deleted User wrote: »

Hardly irrelevant. France has a long tradition with it's military, which means that even apart from it's standing/reservist forces, there are a lot of people with historical links to the military.

These generals will likely have some influence over those people, whether they're within the military itself, or by having some link to it. As such, their letter will likely reach out most to that population, wherever they might be in France. Just as there will be people who trust the opinions of those within the military, with regards to the threats facing France.

In Ireland, the military has little status, and is more of an afterthought. Sure, there's some pride for a minority of Irish people, but the majority know little about what they get up to, and/or couldn't care less. That's not the case with France, with a long military history, and more importantly, they've retained a sense of nationalism, and pride in their military.

Oddly enough the French public seem to behind the old (and young men) who signed that letter. But, yeah irrelevent.

An Ri rua

Cal Croydon wrote: »

They have the opposite problem to us. Here the lawless hoards mostly live in the city centre.

You can't just blame one group of people like that?? I know a few Lawlesses and they're no worse than Lawlors.

jackboy

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Unrest (riots/protest?) Is always possible, civil war? Never gonna happen.

Why would it never happen?

Situations like this have ended in civil war again and again throughout history. Probably days before most of those events happened, most people were saying it could never happen.

It is actually dangerous to think should things could never happen.

jackboy

jackboy wrote: »

Why would it never happen?

Situations like this have ended in civil war again and again throughout history. Probably days before most of those events happened, most people were saying it could never happen.

It is actually dangerous to think should things could never happen.

Well... if you believe it could happen, under what circumstances would that be?

The thing is that France has always been somewhat divided. Many of the people in France have always held allegiances to previous duchies, or States that existed before the formation of modern France.. and yet, we haven't seen it splinter into bits and pieces.

French people will complain, will protest, will march to display their opposition, but I don't believe for a moment, that there is any significant population that wants to instigate a violent change within the country. Perhaps you can explain how there would be? Not a minority with right leaning ideals, or those on the left, but a significant number of people who would be capable of destabilising the nation enough for a civil war to occur?

jackboy

Deleted User wrote: »

Well... if you believe it could happen, under what circumstances would that be?

The thing is that France has always been somewhat divided. Many of the people in France have always held allegiances to previous duchies, or States that existed before the formation of modern France.. and yet, we haven't seen it splinter into bits and pieces.

French people will complain, will protest, will march to display their opposition, but I don't believe for a moment, that there is any significant population that wants to instigate a violent change within the country. Perhaps you can explain how there would be? Not a minority with right leaning ideals, or those on the left, but a significant number of people who would be capable of destabilising the nation enough for a civil war to occur?

Its not about an organised group trying to seize power it’s about people killing their neighbours in a large scale event. That has happened countless times in history.

jackboy

jackboy wrote: »

Its not about an organised group trying to seize power it’s about people killing their neighbours in a large scale event. That has happened countless times in history.

Such as?

I'm guessing you're thinking something along the lines of the cultural revolution in China.. at least, that's the closest I can think of, based on what you wrote above..

What are these examples, in a western society with the modern social and moral structures that are in place?

Kaybaykwah

Deleted User wrote: »

Such as?

I'm guessing you're thinking something along the lines of the cultural revolution in China.. at least, that's the closest I can think of, based on what you wrote above..

What are these examples, in a western society with the modern social and moral structures that are in place?

Well, for one thing France has known many internecine wars, religious wars and uprisings. You don't need to look to China's history nor that far back for evidence of civil strife happening on European soil.