French generals cause backlash with 'civil war' warning

Seems nobody wants to provide actual examples to back up the claim.

Kaybaykwah

Deleted User wrote: »

Seems nobody wants to provide actual examples to back up the claim.

Je ne sais pas si tu peux lire en français, mais voici un un article de 2010 dans "Le Monde".


The following is an example of a recent series of events that is strikingly particular to France in the European context:


https://www.lemonde.fr/societe/article/2010/01/05/en-une-decennie-le-phenomene-des-voitures-brulees-s-est-etendu-et-banalise_1287638_3224.html

For the years before 2010, over a period of 4 years, about 40,000 cars a year were set on fire on New Year's eve in France. Doesn't account for much does it? A little bit of kristallnacht never hurt nobody, right?

DerekC16

Kaybaykwah wrote: »

Je ne sais pas si tu peux lire en français, mais voici un un article de 2010 dans "Le Monde".


The following is an example of a recent series of events that is strikingly particular to France in the European context:


https://www.lemonde.fr/societe/article/2010/01/05/en-une-decennie-le-phenomene-des-voitures-brulees-s-est-etendu-et-banalise_1287638_3224.html

For the years before 2010, over a period of 4 years, about 40,000 cars a year were set on fire on New Year's eve in France. Doesn't account for much does it? A little bit of kristallnacht never hurt nobody, right?

This without even mentioning the amount of churches in France that have spontaneously conbusted over the last few years. The last time churches were targeted like this in Europe it led to a civil war, we know how that turned out.

haha.. the destruction of property is your example? Seriously?

I'm guessing this is to shock the people who aren't familiar with how French people protest. Hardly any indication of a civil war.

Kaybaykwah

Deleted User wrote: »

haha.. the destruction of property is your example? Seriously?

I'm guessing this is to shock the people who aren't familiar with how French people protest. Hardly any indication of a civil war.

You didn't read the article, just as I suspected, haha...

Nowhere is there mention of protests in the article. If the destruction of thousands of cars and trucks on a yearly basis isn't indicative of major civil unrest, I don't know what is. The burning of churches has also become quite common.

Overheal

Kaybaykwah wrote: »

You didn't read the article, just as I suspected, haha...

Nowhere is there mention of protests in the article. If the destruction of thousands of cars and trucks on a yearly basis isn't indicative of major civil unrest, I don't know what is. The burning of churches has also become quite common.

How common, exactly?

Overheal

Overheal wrote: »

How common, exactly?

Rioting and such has been common as part of protesting since the sixties if not further back. It's more a cultural thing so I don't think it's particularly unique to now tbh.

Will_I_Regret

I'm guessing these Generals and other high ranking officers would be prevy to a lot of classified intelligence, gathered from years of domestic Ops. Intel they obviously couldn't disclose in this letter.

But sure what do I or anyone on Boards.ie know.

TomTomTim

Will_I_Regret wrote: »

I'm guessing these Generals and other high ranking officers would be prevy to a lot of classified intelligence, gathered from years of domestic Ops. Intel they obviously couldn't disclose in this letter.

But sure what do I or anyone on Boards.ie know.

Le Pen supposedly has a lot of police support too, which is inline with the same sentiment. They see exactly what's happening on the ground, far more so than the leftists on here who see no issue with any of this.

jmayo

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I'd agree with this. The French seem to be a lot more assertive than the tired old imported Simpsons trope would have you believe.

This just stinks of the grumbling of some irrelevant old men.

Yeah it is not like France have ever had a General as their leader. :rolleyes:

As someone else has said the military in some countries often have a much bigger influence than in say little old Ireland.

Deleted User wrote: »

Such as?

I'm guessing you're thinking something along the lines of the cultural revolution in China.. at least, that's the closest I can think of, based on what you wrote above..

What are these examples, in a western society with the modern social and moral structures that are in place?

The thing is some of our western societies have more and more citizens moving away from the social and moral structures that were built up over centuries and have become particularly open and inclusive over the last century.
Our western societies of today grew out of christian values and then over time the influence of christianity waned (more slowly in some places like here) creating a more secular open inclusive environment.
That inclusive society could now be our very undoing.

The bis issue is a huge chunk of the emigrants to Western societies over the last half century do not share that heritage and come from cultures with much different outlooks.
Now the original arrivals just put their heads down and tried to make a better life for themselves often facing huge prejudice in the process.

The issues have come from their kids who often despise their fellow citizens and the new arrivals who have major axes to grind with western values.

I don't see civil war, but I do see something akin to terrorism and huge social unrest.

It is not that much of a leap to imagine a Northern Ireland troubles type environment developing in some parts of Europe in the next half century.

Kaybaykwah

Kaybaykwah wrote: »

You didn't read the article, just as I suspected, haha...

Nowhere is there mention of protests in the article. If the destruction of thousands of cars and trucks on a yearly basis isn't indicative of major civil unrest, I don't know what is. The burning of churches has also become quite common.

Actually, I did read the article. Go down to the last few paragraphs, where it talks about youths engaging in destruction, and also the expression of protest by destroying things. Both positive and negative expressions.. whatever.. I'm guessing the translation of the article was a bit iffy.

"But the experience of recent years shows that the fire has become a common tool of demonstration, anger but also joy."

Demonstration, being related to protest, I assume... and the reason for that assumption, is the destruction of property that often happens when groups protest in France.

In any case, you responded to my post, which was related to a claim about civil war. Not civil unrest. Also, the op I responded to referred to examples of people being killed. Just as others have suggested towards violence leading to deaths. Your link was simply related to the destruction of property... as I said.

jmayo

jmayo wrote: »

I don't see civil war, but I do see something akin to terrorism and huge social unrest.

Oh, I can see the native groups (historical connections to the country as opposed to newcomers with 1 or 2 generations), turning on those they consider to be "different" culturally. A reaction to the spread of foreign culture and rules/taboos, which have established themselves in many French suburbs. So.. civil unrest? Definitely. The joy that is multiculturalism.. and it'll be nasty in the extreme. Not so much racial, as cultural.

I can also see violent protest over the agendas of their politicians which place the interests of foreign ethnic groups over that of native French people. French protests have always had an element of violence/destruction associated to them. It's part of the reason why their taxation is so high.

However, I don't see this civil war that a variety of posters here have tried to present as likely. Notice how, when asked for how this would happen, or examples of similar, the term was downgraded from civil war to civil unrest?

Strumms

There has been almost 300 Islamic terrorist attacks since 2010 alone.

Averaging about 27 a year.


26 countries have seen attacks.


It WILL happen here.

Kaybaykwah

Deleted User wrote: »

Oh, I can see the native groups (historical connections to the country as opposed to newcomers with 1 or 2 generations), turning on those they consider to be "different" culturally. A reaction to the spread of foreign culture and rules/taboos, which have established themselves in many French suburbs. So.. civil unrest? Definitely. The joy that is multiculturalism.. and it'll be nasty in the extreme. Not so much racial, as cultural.

I can also see violent protest over the agendas of their politicians which place the interests of foreign ethnic groups over that of native French people. French protests have always had an element of violence/destruction associated to them. It's part of the reason why their taxation is so high.

However, I don't see this civil war that a variety of posters here have tried to present as likely. Notice how, when asked for how this would happen, or examples of similar, the term was downgraded from civil war to civil unrest?

I mentioned kristallnacht for a reason. What happened in Germany in the modern era was an oft repeated aggression on an important part of civil society. You could call the attack on Jews, gays, gypsies a type
of civil unrest if you wanted.to avert your eyes from the civil warfare which turned into a world war. All that happened in a country that was the most advanced European nation, technologically. It also was the helm of philosophical thought and humanities, we are not talking Zimbabwe here.

As far as demonstrations leading to destruction of property, i.e.; vehicles: there has been very little due to that, these acts emanate from suburbs that answer to another authority than the French Republic. The ideal is to subvert.

Now, if you had in proportion to what the French suffer in numbers in Ireland in terms of destruction, would you call it a sign of protest?

Kaybaykwah

Kaybaykwah wrote: »

I mentioned kristallnacht for a reason. What happened in Germany in the modern era was an oft repeated aggression on an important part of civil society. You could call the attack on Jews, gays, gypsies a type
of civil unrest if you wanted.to avert your eyes from the civil warfare which turned into a world war. All that happened in a country that was the most advanced European nation, technologically. It also was the helm of philosophical thought and humanities, we are not talking Zimbabwe here.

You're mixing up era's here. Germany in 1914 was as you describe in terms of philosophical thought and humanities, along with being a forerunner in technological development. Germany in 1938 was far less so, except in the areas of their military, and propaganda efforts. Big monumental achievements like the autobahn, but nothing that other countries couldn't have done themselves had the desire been there.

In any case, I don't see the connection between the Nazi hatred of the Jews, (and other "undesirables") with the situation in France. The problem isn't with a perception of racial superiority. It's the case of a clash of values, and acceptable behaviors.

And Germany didn't experience a civil war at any stage. Civil unrest that led to the political takeover, but no actual civil war... no matter how much you want to stretch the term.

As far as demonstrations leading to destruction of property, i.e.; vehicles: there has been very little due to that, these acts emanate from suburbs that answer to another authority than the French Republic. The ideal is to subvert.

French protests have always been destructive, and the destruction of cars, and other property is common whenever a large group of people (a mob) march.

Now, if you had in proportion to what the French suffer in numbers in Ireland in terms of destruction, would you call it a sign of protest?

Nope, but then we don't have the history of such protests, nor the application of destruction the way the French do. You seem to want to believe that the French being destructive is a new thing. Search ten years ago about protests and you'll find reports of people destroying cars, or other things while they march.. it's part of their culture.

Now, is it excessive? Yes, definitely. But it's not a new expression for them, it's just gotten worse, for all manner of reasons....

Kaybaykwah

Norden Iron.

wes

Deleted User wrote: »

The joy that is multiculturalism..

France has never had a policy of multiculturalism. They reject the idea out right.

jackboy

Deleted User wrote: »

And Germany didn't experience a civil war at any stage. Civil unrest that led to the political takeover, but no actual civil war... no matter how much you want to stretch the term.

The french Generals are not talking about a long term American civil war type of scenario. The are suggesting a short term event that would leave thousands dead and seriously damage french society for years to come. Such events have commonly occurred in the past.

wes

wes wrote: »

France has never had a policy of multiculturalism. They reject the idea out right.

All European countries for the last 2-3 decades, as part of the EU, had a multicultural policy... and since France has been a major player within the EU, that policy was driven as much by them, as by Germany.

Just because the politicians want something, doesn't mean that the French electorate do.

jackboy wrote:

The french Generals are not talking about a long term American civil war type of scenario. The are suggesting a short term event that would leave thousands dead and seriously damage french society for years to come. Such events have commonly occurred in the past.

Kaybaykwah, raised the comparison with Germany, I didn't.

Now... the claim by another poster was about a civil war occurring... If you want to make a separate point, then, don't quote a piece of mine that was dealing with such a claim. Put it up alone, and let people accept or take it apart on it's own merit.

However, your piece:

"Its not about an organised group trying to seize power it’s about people killing their neighbours in a large scale event. That has happened countless times in history."

I asked for modern examples.

A police union sent a damning letter to the French President on Monday after two police officers were killed in less than two weeks. Angry policemen are calling on Mr Macron to stop preaching against violence and start acting to change things as quickly as possible.

In an open letter to the French leader, they said: "The days of beautiful tribute ceremonies are over. You need to move from candles to political action. You don't fight a war with tears.

More than 30 000 supported that letter

Doesnt look like Macron gona win next elections

Irish media continue keep silence

con___manx1

grassylawn wrote: »

Letter encourages president to enforce the law without weakness. The active soldiers who signed the letter are breaking the law by not remaining politically neutral.

France have some strange laws. for instance you are guilty until proven innocent. they can also put you on trial without you even being in the country.

grassylawn

grassylawn wrote: »

Letter encourages president to enforce the law without weakness. The active soldiers who signed the letter are breaking the law by not remaining politically neutral.

I think the law are broken by those who invaded France as illegal emigrants and created there own law which is supported by Macron.
Then the people which duty is Protect The Country must react by law and protect the country .
If president Macron does not use his power to protect France by law then Macron must be removed.

Kaybaykwah

con___manx1 wrote: »

France have some strange laws. for instance you are guilty until proven innocent. they can also put you on trial without you even being in the country.

Yes, but meanwhile, in the ultimate context of said rule of law; the USof A, there are more people in prison than all the major countries put together.

wes

Deleted User wrote: »

All European countries for the last 2-3 decades, as part of the EU, had a multicultural policy... and since France has been a major player within the EU, that policy was driven as much by them, as by Germany.

Yeah, except France (i would argue Germany to a lesser degree as well, but that is off topic, and of course most of Eastern Europe reject it as well), who rejected it out right. Everyone is a citizen of the Republic, they don't even collect data on ethnicity:

How French law makes minorities invisible


France follows the Republic model:

French Republican model fuels alienation rather than integration


The French Republican model asserts that all French citizens have the same cultural identity. Indeed, this is the only acceptable identity.

To achieve this shared identity, all citizens have to speak the one official language and be educated according to a common curriculum. But they also enjoy equal rights, and have the same duties, in the public arena.

All this is not only fostered by the state, but also requires the kind of uniformity that only a centralized state can impose. Indeed, the French Revolution's ideological commitment to unity was so strong that during parts of the nineteenth century, advocating federalism was a capital offense.

The above article is critical of the model, but it was the first one I could find that explains it well enough.

Now you will see French politicians bang on about multi culturalism from time to time, as it riles up people, but the fact is they have never had a multi cultural policy at all.

DeadHand

In theory, France had no stated policy of multiculturalism.

In practice, multiculturalism happened anyway, through mass immigration, which French politicians failed/refused to regulate in a safe, prudent manner.

Hence the strife evident in France now and in every other European country at an advanced stage of plantation.

France is staring down the barrel of a Le Pen government and, as with almost every major political problem afflicting Europe, the blame can be directly ascribed to the titanic mismanagement of immigration.

francois

jackboy wrote: »

The french Generals are not talking about a long term American civil war type of scenario. The are suggesting a short term event that would leave thousands dead and seriously damage french society for years to come. Such events have commonly occurred in the past.

Not going to happen, despite the priapic fantasies of some here

Hamachi

DeadHand wrote: »

France is staring down the barrel of a Le Pen government and, as with almost every major political problem afflicting Europe, the blame can be directly ascribed to the titanic mismanagement of immigration.

I’m not a fan of mass immigration or multiculturalism. However, I believe that a Le Pen lead government is an impending travesty for France. Things should never have gotten this far. It’s yet another warning siren that the political class has been ignoring the deepening concerns of native European populations for decades.

It’s laughable to claim that France is not a multicultural society. Certainly, they make noises about pursuing a policy of assimilation and not recording the ethnic distribution of the population. Anybody who has been to Paris knows this to be false.

If you take a trip around inner Paris on the metro, the passengers are mostly the stereotypical well groomed, white French. However, jump on the RER trains serving the far flung suburbs, and it’s clear that the passengers are from very different backgrounds and leading very different lives from those in the chic central districts. Similarly, a trip to Saint Denis, about 15kms to the north west of Paris is like entering a different world. Market day in the main square more closely resembles a North African souk than anything else.

It’s clearly a nonsense to claim that the populations in the suburbs are well assimilated and are regarded as their brethren by mainstream France. This anxiety about changing demographics, coupled with increasingly frequent violent incidents, has lead France to where it is now. A country on the verge of electing a truly right wing demagogue.

When will the political class across Europe finally start listening to the concerns of the electorate on this flawed policy of multiculturalism?

jackboy

francois wrote: »

Not going to happen, despite the priapic fantasies of some here

You have a strange idea of what a fantasy is.

Be careful of the fallacy that people endlessly fall into that things will never change.

Hamachi

Hamachi wrote: »

When will the political class across Europe finally start listening to the concerns of the electorate on this flawed policy of multiculturalism?

It doesn't affect them, they do not care. They always have and always will economically and then geographically if needs be segregate themselves from any issues. This is increasingly becoming an entire Western European issue including Ireland.

Ultimately though we are in a democracy, so people get what they vote for. Ireland being no exception, all our parties are pro mass immigration, we will be where France is now in a few decades.

The old Left who would have fought against mass immigration back in the 60-80s throughout Europe no longer exists. Look at Ireland, we have the likes of Sinn Fein and Labour who if they ever get into power will open the floodgates even more and the two main traditional parties who couldn't care less as long as they can keep the financial tap flowing nicely in their direction.

Solli

grassylawn wrote: »

The letter is taking a political stance. It was signed by active soldiers, not just retired generals. They are breaking the law the letter goes on about enforcing.

The thing that strikes me the most is the awful flowery roundabout style of the letter. Painful to read it.

It’s written in French obviously, and google (badly) translated into English.