French generals cause backlash with 'civil war' warning

Danzy

listermint wrote: »

My only evidence is that I treat other people with humanity.

You are a less humble version of DeValera.

Jequ0n

TomTomTim wrote: »

I watched the 2019 Les Misérables over the weekend and you really have to wonder what the message behind the movie is, as in what it really is. I think the directors intent was to show the hardships of minorities in ghettos and police brutality, but there's another message there which the director likely didn't intend. That being, that none of this is working, the cultural clashes will never fix themselves, that the them v us is ripping French society apart, and that multiculturalism generally is a failed project. This is also where another conflict lies, the conflict between those who've accepted the failure, and those who won't admit said failure. How does society move forward when both camps are on two completely different planes?

I recommend watching “la Haine”. Possibly the best representation ever made

suicide_circus

Chips Lovell wrote: »

I think there's more than a few people getting a bit carried away with themselves. There's no imminent civil war. France is a large, prosperous democracy. Sure it has its problems, but so too to most other countries like it. People are making out like its a failed state.

A large prosperous democracy in which a religious fanatic of immigrant origin recently sawed through the neck of a teacher on a public street in broad daylight. A large prosperous democracy in which similar religious fanatics have committed gruesome mass murders on multiple occasions in the last 6 or so years.

These things have an effect.

listermint

Danzy wrote: »

You are a less humble version of DeValera.

Not a fan no ?

listermint

suicide_circus wrote: »

A large prosperous democracy in which a religious fanatic of immigrant origin recently sawed through the neck of a teacher on a public street in broad daylight. A large prosperous democracy in which similar religious fanatics have committed gruesome mass murders on multiple occasions in the last 6 or so years.

These things have an effect.

There are various laws in place and enforced to deal with such crimes though. Enforcement and engagement with communities is what works. The other options like vilification and segregation simply don't.

It's gas we've had multicultural multi denominational cities for hundred and hundreds of years. It's like the internet seems to think it's a new thing. As is human on human Violence.

biko

listermint wrote: »

It's gas we've had multicultural multi denominational cities for hundred and hundreds of years. It's like the internet seems to think it's a new thing. As is human on human Violence.

Yes, and there have been religious and ethnic wars for hundreds of years.
Yugoslavia and Rwanda the most recent major ones. They weren't "gas".

It may or may not happen, but the chance of it happening is not zero.

suicide_circus

listermint wrote: »

There are various laws in place and enforced to deal with such crimes though. Enforcement and engagement with communities is what works. The other options like vilification and segregation simply don't.

It's gas we've had multicultural multi denominational cities for hundred and hundreds of years. It's like the internet seems to think it's a new thing. As is human on human Violence.

People react strongly to horrific events, this is nothing new.

biko

kowloon wrote: »

IIf people storming the capitol building looking to capture and execute members of the government didn't kick off a civil war I don't think people burning down a Starbucks or two is going to do it either. Unless they stop them voting, people don't like being marginalised like that.

I think it would have helped if they had any guns.
Guns help when you want to capture and execute people.

Housefree

listermint wrote: »

It's gas

The last words from a lot of European Jews

Dyr

Jequ0n wrote: »

I recommend watching “la Haine”. Possibly the best representation ever made

Why would you watch a piece of fiction to inform yourself of reality? Seems infantile.

Wibbs

listermint wrote: »

There are various laws in place and enforced to deal with such crimes though. Enforcement and engagement with communities is what works. The other options like vilification and segregation simply don't.

Neither works, because as we have seen in every single European country that has gone down the "multiculturalism" route the fault lines get worse over time and the generations and again in every single European country that has gone down the "multiculturalism" route the same demographics end up clustering at the bottom of society and others at the top. Racism has a lot to do with it, but that's not going away any time soon. Human nature has always had a sense of and fear and antagonism towards the "other", whether that be based on skin colour, religion, or other markers of ethnicity. The more obviously different the more antagonism. Human nature also drives people most alike to seek out and live beside each other in communities. Basically human nature is the major driver of division and I'm afraid you can't socially engineer that out. We're not blank slates.

It's gas we've had multicultural multi denominational cities for hundred and hundreds of years. It's like the internet seems to think it's a new thing. As is human on human Violence.

Actually the modern form is quite the new thing as are the numbers involved as is the speed of change. Ireland a very good example of the latter.

You're ignoring the fact that multicultural and multi denominational nations of the past were rife with ethnic flashpoints all the way to outright conflict and any large scale influx was on the back of conquest and war. Ireland's history demonstrates this and they were all the same "race", praying to the same god. You're also ignoring the fact where multicultural nations worked they were all imperial cultures with a very strong sense of self and an equally strong response to any perceived or real threat to that culture and the "native" was in the driving seat and at the top. EG Rome, the Caliphate, China(including today). That's the irony, it seems multiculturalism is more likely to work under conservative "right wing" cultures than progressive "left wing" ones.

malinheader

Multiculturalism and resettlement of immigrants is not working in alot of places because trying to integrate large numbers people from different beliefs, cultures into small towns and villages with limited amenities and work prospects nil is never going to work.
We in Ireland will in the coming years begin to see the same problems as the likes of the UK and France are having at the moment.
For a country with no houses a health service that is seriously under massive pressure unemployment still a massive issue we still seem intent of adding to all our problems.
Anyone coming into the country no matter who or what they believe in to work and be willing to integrate into society and not avail of social welfare should be welcomed with open arms. But sadly a massive majority have no interest in working but looking to be kept.
Anyone who has been to France recently will understand why the letter was written.

There was a fascinating documentary on the BBC a couple of years ago about the divide in British society. They focused at one stage on Blackburn and used taxi drivers and gps to show the split in the communities by showing who went where in their daily life and journeys. There was practically no interaction between the communities, living in essentially segregated sections of the city, very isolated except for a small overlap in the city center where people went for shopping and then retreated back to their own areas.

That's the reality of life.

Calahonda52

malinheader wrote: »

Multiculturalism and resettlement of immigrants is not working in alot of places because trying to integrate large numbers people from different beliefs, cultures into small towns and villages with limited amenities and work prospects nil is never going to work.
We in Ireland will in the coming years begin to see the same problems as the likes of the UK and France are having at the moment.
For a country with no houses a health service that is seriously under massive pressure unemployment still a massive issue we still seem intent of adding to all our problems.
Anyone coming into the country no matter who or what they believe in to work and be willing to integrate into society and not avail of social welfare should be welcomed with open arms. But sadly a massive majority have no interest in working but looking to be kept.
Anyone who has been to France recently will understand why the letter was written.

Anyone who has been to Blancardstown recently will understand why the letter was written

Fann Linn

Cal Croydon wrote: »

They have the opposite problem to us. Here the lawless hoards mostly live in the city centre.

Dail Eireann??

The French, with their marching, and protesting (rioting) often appear divided... and they are. They've always been that way, since the revolution. It's their right to be divided... but I certainly wouldn't see that as a sign of any kind of civil war.

They have an external enemy. Islam. That will bring them together.

grassylawn

Deleted User wrote: »

The French, with their marching, and protesting (rioting) often appear divided... and they are. They've always been that way, since the revolution. It's their right to be divided... but I certainly wouldn't see that as a sign of any kind of civil war.

They have an external enemy. Islam. That will bring them together.

Except the French people who are Muslim.

grassylawn

I wonder if the same techniques that are used to deprogram cult members would work on people indoctrinated with fundamentalist or extremist ideas. Not thinking exclusively about Wahibbis or Muslims in general with this. I wonder if it is something that is ever tried.

ambro25

The letter signatories who are still serving int he Forces will start to be disciplined this week.

So they should: they breached the military code, in particular their duty of impartiality under the droit de réserve.

There's a reason why one of the best-known and most-used nicknames for the French army is 'La Grande Muette' (the big mute, feminine gender), and has been for well over a century if not longer.

The sensationalist posts in this thread reprising the no-less-sensationalist notion of a "civil war" hyperboled in the letter are best left ignored.

Clearly, many posters could do worse than familiarise themselves with France's colonial past, which goes a lot further to explain the Muslim population size in the country (since well over a century) and France's perception and diplomacy/military adventurism in African (north/central/etc.) countries, than any notion of recent illegal immigration ever could.

It also goes most of the way to explain how hardline Muslim terrorism (-which I distinguish from acts of isolated, easily-groomed headcases) in France, and the specific targeting of the country for hate/terrorism by hardline Muslim communities, is a phenomenon several decades old, going further back than the 1960 Algerian war of independence: constitutional secularism, enforced farily rigidly (by comparison to many other western democracies) is the proselytes' worst enemy.

TomTomTim

ambro25 wrote: »

The letter signatories who are still serving int he Forces will start to be disciplined this week.

So they should: they breached the military code, in particular their duty of impartiality under the droit de réserve.

There's a reason why one of the best-known and most-used nicknames for the French army is 'La Grande Muette' (the big mute, feminine gender), and has been for well over a century if not longer.

The sensationalist posts in this thread reprising the no-less-sensationalist notion of a "civil war" hyperboled in the letter are best left ignored.

Clearly, many posters could do worse than familiarise themselves with France's colonial past, which goes a lot further to explain the Muslim population size in the country (since well over a century) and France's perception and diplomacy/military adventurism in African (north/central/etc.) countries, than any notion of recent illegal immigration ever could.

It also goes most of the way to explain how hardline Muslim terrorism (-which I distinguish from acts of isolated, easily-groomed headcases) in France, and the specific targeting of the country for hate/terrorism by hardline Muslim communities, is a phenomenon several decades old, going further back than the 1960 Algerian war of independence: constitutional secularism, enforced farily rigidly (by comparison to many other western democracies) is the proselytes' worst enemy.

Is there any proof at all that any of this is motivated by colonialism? It's the default position of many on the left, right inline with their own views, yet I don't see much proof when it comes to the motivations of the people who committed these acts. Most of the barbarous acts we've seen in the last few years have nearly always been about cultural clashes, and not colonization, at least in regard to the words of those who've committed said acts.

grassylawn

grassylawn wrote: »

Except the French people who are Muslim.

It's not going to be so black/white an issue. All against Islam or not. For those French people who are Muslim, a sign that they've accepted French culture/values, then, that will likely be enough.

The enemy will be those who refuse to conform.

malinheader

Calahonda52 wrote: »

Anyone who has been to Blancardstown recently will understand why the letter was written

Very true. I was merely trying to point out probably why the citizens of France have had enough. As to Blancardstown you could probably say the same of alot of our towns and cities in Ireland.

Housefree

grassylawn wrote: »

I wonder if the same techniques that are used to deprogram cult members would work on people indoctrinated with fundamentalist or extremist ideas. Not thinking exclusively about Wahibbis or Muslims in general with this. I wonder if it is something that is ever tried.

The extremists are bombing the middle east back to the stone age with the most sophisticated weaponry ever devised by mankind. Iraq/Afghanistan/Libya/Syria while supporting apartheid

A few lone wolfs on a suicide mission in the west after watching a drone strike slaughter a whole wedding party in some small middle eastern village is hardly extreme in comparison

But your right, can you deprogram US politics/generals?

ambro25

TomTomTim wrote: »

Is there any proof at all that any of this is motivated by colonialism? It's the default position of many on the left, right inline with their own views, yet I don't see much proof when it comes to the motivations of the people who committed these acts. Most of the barbarous acts we've seen in the last few years have nearly always been about cultural clashes, and not colonization, at least in regard to the words of those who've committed said acts.

I did not present or argue that point.

I invited readers and posters to consider the causal link between France's colonial past and the size of the Muslim population in France. Much of which is multigenerational, to the same extent as e.g. multigenerational Hindu, Indian and Pakistani families in the U.K.

And accessorily long- and well-integrated, to the extent permitted by social biases.

There aren't "hordes of Arabs" ready to descend upon the country like it was 732 AD all over again.

There are fundies resourced by foreign money, agitating and jostling for power and influence in some Muslim communities (the poorest, of course), who are knocked on the head by the State (national, regional, departmental, local/communal) with the regularity of a metronome.

There are criminal gangs of youths in most communities (like everywhere else outside France), for which religion is merely one common denominator (through choice or happenstanceor) amongst so many others. Forget "La Haine", go watch "Un Prophète".

And there are head cases, brought up as Muslims or late-converted, using an extreme interpretation of their religion as a facile justification for their acts.

francois

ambro25 wrote: »

I did not present or argue that point.

I invited readers and posters to consider the causal link between France's colonial past and the size of the Muslim population in France. Much of which is multigenerational, to the same extent as e.g. multigenerational Hindu, Indian and Pakistani families in the U.K.

And accessorily long- and well-integrated, to the extent permitted by social biases.

There aren't "hordes of Arabs" ready to descend upon the country like it was 732 AD all over again.

There are fundies resourced by foreign money, agitating and jostling for power and influence in some Muslim communities (the poorest, of course), who are knocked on the head by the State (national, regional, departmental, local/communal) with the regularity of a metronome.

There are criminal gangs of youths in most communities (like everywhere else outside France), for which religion is merely one common denominator (through choice or happenstanceor) amongst so many others. Forget "La Haine", go watch "Un Prophète".

And there are head cases, brought up as Muslims or late-converted, using an extreme interpretation of their religion as a facile justification for their acts.

C'est bien dit

grassylawn

Housefree wrote: »

The extremists are bombing the middle east back to the stone age with the most sophisticated weaponry ever devised by mankind. Iraq/Afghanistan/Libya/Syria while supporting apartheid

A few lone wolfs on a suicide mission in the west after watching a drone strike slaughter a whole wedding party in some small middle eastern village is hardly extreme in comparison

But your right, can you deprogram US politics/generals?

The USA is not France or a part of the EU. A random woman on the street had no responsibility for the actions of the US military.

Grouping the whole of the West as the same homogenous entity that all bears the responsibility for actions by any part of it is ridiculous. It is the same thing as grouping all all Muslims as somehow jointly responsible for the actions of a few of them. However it is a stranger position to take by someone who presumably is part of the group they are expressing racist-like attitudes about.

grassylawn

Here's a mad concept. What the US does or doesn't do in the Middle East isn't my problem.

DerekC16

So who's signing up for the Irish Brigade?

WrenBoy

DerekC16 wrote: »

So who's signing up for the Irish Brigade?

And what'll they be covering ? :pac:
I suppose we'll have to pay for our own transport ?

Mike Murdock

Stihl waters wrote: »

The product of weak leadership, that's what happens when you have a leader with mammy issues, he needs to go and be replaced by someone a little further right of field to even things up a bit

A childless weirdo with mammy issues.