Covid 19 in India

wes

wes wrote: »

Rare fungal infections that destroy eyeballs and kill are on the rise in India


When it rains it pours. So not only do Indians have to deal with covid, now covid is making a flesh eating fungus more prevalent. I guess this is something we never considered, that covid, could trigger other diseases to get worse as well.

Its something that is 100% considered. A large portion of those who die from respiratory viruses do so from secondary infection. It is estimated the vast majority of those killed by the Spanish flu in fact died from bacterial pneumonia which got a hold during the influenza infection

wes

Deleted User wrote: »

Its something that is 100% considered. A large portion of those who die from respiratory viruses do so from secondary infection. It is estimated the vast majority of those killed by the Spanish flu in fact died from bacterial pneumonia which got a hold during the influenza infection

Thanks for the correction, was unaware of that.

ArthurDayne

fly_agaric wrote: »

Only in sense that there really is a decent-sized minority of people who think that Covid is "overhyped" and governments generally "overreacted".

The disease obviously got completely out of control in India, as seen in other places previously, alot of people are getting sick and dying and health services that were not great anyway are not functioning normally + people who work in them are under extreme pressures.

However as you can see from the very long running "relaxation of restrictions" thread here, alot of people believe that public health related restrictions on freedoms or other society-level changes made to fight the disease are unacceptable and are extremely angry about what they see as "overhyping" the disease and the authority and trust given to health professionals as regards implementing of measures to control it. Some of these types run countries (Brazil, US under Trump)!

Have to say this utter callousness and selfishness (and stupidity as well really) is what I've found most shocking about the whole pandemic.

Well, should wealthy countries like Ireland and the other developed nations give all their vaccines to countries like India where the effects of both the virus (in terms of death toll) and lockdown (in terms of poverty) are much more acutely dangerous and harder to combat?

wes

ArthurDayne wrote: »

Well, should wealthy countries like Ireland and the other developed nations give all their vaccines to countries like India where the effects of both the virus (in terms of death toll) and lockdown (in terms of poverty) are much more acutely dangerous and harder to combat?

I say we should not. We already see India charging for vaccines to people and aid already given, seemingly not going to those in need.

We are not in a position to make up for corruption and poor governance in other countries.

What we should do is support the release of vaccine patents, and try and help countries make their own vaccines, and provide spare vaccines to trusted foreign governments, and in the case of corrupt governments like India, aid should be distributed ourselves, as they can't be trusted.

ArthurDayne

wes wrote: »

I say we should not. We already see India charging for vaccines to people and aid already given, seemingly not going to those in need.

We are not in a position to make up for corruption and poor governance in other countries.

What we should do is support the release of vaccine patents, and try and help countries make their own vaccines, and provide spare vaccines to trusted foreign governments, and in the case of corrupt governments like India, aid should be distributed ourselves, as they can't be trusted.

Fair enough, and for the record, I don’t advocate giving away our vaccines. I suppose the point is though that even if none of those things were true about India (and I have no info on me to suggest that they aren’t) I do not imagine that there would be any great appetite in Ireland to prolong our own Covid crisis by handing away our vaccines — even if countries like India suffer to a far greater level of severity from both the virus itself and the measures used to suppress it.

It’s selfishness at heart, and while it isn’t particularly admirable, it’s also highly understandable and a feature of our nature. I get particularly riled however by the moral high grounders who write these posts about selfishness and callousness when they themselves are selfish — but they just redraw the parameters of selfishness in a self-serving way so they can point the finger at others.

wes

ArthurDayne wrote: »

Fair enough, and for the record, I don’t advocate giving away our vaccines. I suppose the point is though that even if none of those things were true about India (and I have no info on me to suggest that they aren’t) I do not imagine that there would be any great appetite in Ireland to prolong our own Covid crisis by handing away our vaccines — even if countries like India suffer to a far greater level of severity from both the virus itself and the measures used to suppress it.

It’s selfishness at heart, and while it isn’t particularly admirable, it’s also highly understandable and a feature of our nature. I get particularly riled however by the moral high grounders who write these posts about selfishness and callousness when they themselves are selfish — but they just redraw the parameters of selfishness in a self-serving way so they can point the finger at others.

It is 100% selfish of course. In an ideal world, we would have a global vaccine program and start with the most vulnerable first, but its simply not palatable to do so, and we have to be honest if those countries were in our position, they would do the same as we are doing.

The one thing we should do is waive patents, that is imo really stupid to not have done. Protecting profits of a few greedy pharma companies was really dumb, especially as a lot of research was paid for in part by governments.

Flinty997

ArthurDayne wrote: »

Well, should wealthy countries like Ireland and the other developed nations give all their vaccines to countries like India where the effects of both the virus (in terms of death toll) and lockdown (in terms of poverty) are much more acutely dangerous and harder to combat?

Is India a poor or wealthy country?
It has something like the fourth largest airforce in the world and the seventh biggest Navy.
But it does not distribute its wealth and it had a lot of people.

Two-thirds of people in India live in poverty: 68.8% of the Indian population lives on less than $2 a day. Over 30% even have less than $1.25 per day available - they are considered extremely poor. This makes the Indian subcontinent one of the poorest countries in the world; women and children, the weakest members of Indian society, suffer most.

India is the second most populous country after China with about 1.2 billion people and isthe seventh largest country in the world with an area of ​​3,287,000 km². The highly contrasted country has enjoyed growth rates of up to 10% over many years and is one of the largest economies in the world, with a gross domestic product (GDP) of 1,644 billion US dollars. But only a small percentage of the Indian population has benefited from this impressive economic boom so far, as the majority of people in India are still living in abject poverty.

Cordell

wes wrote: »

The one thing we should do is waive patents, that is imo really stupid to not have done.

Actually, it's a very useless thing to do, I will quote myself on why:

Cordell wrote: »

It's not that simple, the patent prevents others to make vaccines using similar technologies but that's only assuming that they can. The patent is just a legal hurdle, in order to be able to actually make vaccines you need the full cooperation off those that already made them because a lot of the process is also protected by trade secrets.

What I'm saying is that they are going about it the wrong way. Instead of going to government agencies with limited jurisdiction WTO should go directly to the vaccines manufactures, huge wads of cash in hand because this is how the world works, and license the vaccine properly.

Patents provide legal protection for commercial interests, if a Indian manufacturer is able to make vaccines they should start making them for distribution in India and no US or EU pharma corporation would be able to do anything about it.

wes

Flinty997 wrote: »

Is India a poor or wealthy country?
It has something like the fourth largest airforce in the world and the seventh biggest Navy.
But it does not distribute its wealth and it had a lot of people.

This is a valid point as well. Earlier in the thread, someone said India spent like less than 1% of GDP on health care. Regardless of the level of wealth it has, that is shockingly stupid to not increase during a pandemic. It really show that the government cares more about sustaining their various occupations, than providing health care for their people.

wes

Cordell wrote: »

Actually, it's a very useless thing to do, I will quote myself on why:



Patents provide legal protection for commercial interests, if a Indian manufacturer is able to make vaccines they should start making them for distribution in India and no US or EU pharma corporation would be able to do anything about it.

That is a valid argument, and in the case of India, they actually have an indigenous vaccine (which they hypocritically haven't released the patent for btw, while demanding others release theirs. Typical Modi hypocrisy.), so in that case it would definitely not help.

Cordell

There is a lot of confusion of what patents are supposed to be and what they really are.

Patents are supposed to be a way in which the state protects your right to benefit from your invention while in the same time sharing the invention with everyone to promote technical advancement. In reality, patents only cover a fraction of the invention. Significant parts of it remain secret, or they can be different between the real process and the patent.
Patents are written and analyzed by lawyers, not scientists. No one can say that if you copy the Pfizer patents you will obtain the Pfizer vaccine. No one ever tried it.

fly_agaric

ArthurDayne wrote: »

Well, should wealthy countries like Ireland and the other developed nations give all their vaccines to countries like India where the effects of both the virus (in terms of death toll) and lockdown (in terms of poverty) are much more acutely dangerous and harder to combat?

The way the world is set up, no.
Ironically, if we'd been able to control the disease better in Europe and the US using other measures (as seems to have happened in many countries in Asia), there would be less need to rely heavily on mass vaccinations (and so more production could be exported).

ArthurDayne wrote: »

Fair enough, and for the record, I don’t advocate giving away our vaccines. I suppose the point is though that even if none of those things were true about India (and I have no info on me to suggest that they aren’t) I do not imagine that there would be any great appetite in Ireland to prolong our own Covid crisis by handing away our vaccines — even if countries like India suffer to a far greater level of severity from both the virus itself and the measures used to suppress it.

It’s selfishness at heart, and while it isn’t particularly admirable, it’s also highly understandable and a feature of our nature. I get particularly riled however by the moral high grounders who write these posts about selfishness and callousness when they themselves are selfish — but they just redraw the parameters of selfishness in a self-serving way so they can point the finger at others.

Ha, I in turn get irritated by people taking an absolute position about "high moral grounders"/let him without sin cast the first stone and pretending they have a clever point.

I have not yet given everything I own to charity, and as pointed out we're not in the happy situation of a world government where all of the vaccines will be produced as a collective and distributed fairly and according to need. If you're living in the UK or the US you should be particularly glad of that fact given how governments of both of those countries have acted to procure their vaccine supplies.

I know I'm not a saint. Still think I'm fully entitled to criticse people who have opposed all the society level public health restrictions in this country in word (i.e. posting in the forum) + likely in deed as well (if they are not trolling) for the last 14 months.

It's a fairly minimal requirement (as regards trying not to be "selfish" or "callous" or "stupid") to not do that. I can't do anything about the problems of the world that result in unequal/unfair distribution of vaccines between countries. The number of people who can do anything about that is quite small.

screamer

So we finally find out what is different about it now in India versus last wave, it’s believed to be resistant to certain anti bodies and vaccines. If that’s the case.......

ArthurDayne

fly_agaric wrote: »

The way the world is set up, no.
Ironically, if we'd been able to control the disease better in Europe and the US using other measures (as seems to have happened in many countries in Asia), there would be less need to rely heavily on mass vaccinations (and so more production could be exported).

Indeed — no. Regardless of whatever spin you want to put on it, even if the world was set up any differently and all the coulda / woulda / shouldas, you would not be advocating sending European vaccines to India . . . or indeed anywhere else.

Nor would I, because selfishly I’d like to see my own country plough on and get out of this so I can have normal life back. Because I am selfish.

fly_agaric wrote: »

Ha, I in turn get irritated by people taking an absolute position about "high moral grounders"/let him without sin cast the first stone and pretending they have a clever point.

I have not yet given everything I own to charity, and as pointed out we're not in the happy situation of a world government where all of the vaccines will be produced as a collective and distributed fairly and according to need. If you're living in the UK or the US you should be particularly glad of that fact given how governments of both of those countries have acted to procure their vaccine supplies.

I know I'm not a saint. Still think I'm fully entitled to criticse people who have opposed all the society level public health restrictions in this country in word (i.e. posting in the forum) + likely in deed as well (if they are not trolling) for the last 14 months.

It's a fairly minimal requirement (as regards trying not to be "selfish" or "callous" or "stupid") to not do that. I can't do anything about the problems of the world that result in unequal/unfair distribution of vaccines between countries. The number of people who can do anything about that is quite small.

And yet, come the end of the pandemic — when Covid and other respiratory illness are down to a nice arbitrary number that society deems to be fine — you will accept the deaths from these ongoing illnesses as a price worth paying for your freedoms and convenience. A measly couple of hundred dead from respiratory illness, some of whom a lockdown might have saved? Meh — not enough of them to take any further action over — back to the pub everyone. These people simply are not numerous enough to be saved, so long as you can have your life back.

In other words, you are selfish too. There are moral deficiencies and inconsistencies in your view on Covid, as there are in mine. The difference is that, while I believe in the things I argue just as much as you, I do not start posturing myself as being morally superior by unilaterally calling others selfish or callous.

positron

ArthurDayne wrote: »

Indeed — no. Regardless of whatever spin you want to put on it, even if the world was set up any differently and all the coulda / woulda / shouldas, you would not be advocating sending European vaccines to India . . . or indeed anywhere else.
...........
Nor would I, because selfishly I’d like to see my own country plough on and get out of this so I can have normal life back. Because I am selfish.

If Germany/Netherlands etc (whereever AZ and others are producing vaccines) shared your opinion, we would still be waiting for first delivery of vaccines into Ireland.

Also how would vaccination protect Irish / Europeans, if the virus is let to run rampant in other populations and mutate freely. It's not entirely unlike saying that we are now 100% on renewable energy sources in Ireland, so that's it, we will be safe from Global warming whatever China or rest of the world does.

positron

screamer wrote: »

So we finally find out what is different about it now in India versus last wave, it’s believed to be resistant to certain anti bodies and vaccines. If that’s the case.......

Any source for this? This is against everything I've heard so far, but curious to know if there's any new info on this. Thanks!

Patrick2010

India obviously have money to spend on a space program...

https://text.npr.org/792927666

drunkmonkey

positron wrote: »

Any source for this? This is against everything I've heard so far, but curious to know if there's any new info on this. Thanks!

The FT has not corroborated individual press reports but the Indian Medical Association said that at least nine of 194 doctors that had died of Covid-19 during the recent outbreak were believed to have been fully vaccinated. The organisation was in the process of verifying more details, including how long after their second shot the doctors had died and which vaccine they had received.
https://www.ft.com/content/5f742765-61ac-4da6-8c6f-49119cd7d46c

India is a big place so probably a lot of doctors die every day, normal deaths are about 27,000 per day.

ArthurDayne

positron wrote: »

If Germany/Netherlands etc (whereever AZ and others are producing vaccines) shared your opinion, we would still be waiting for first delivery of vaccines into Ireland.

Also how would vaccination protect Irish / Europeans, if the virus is let to run rampant in other populations and mutate freely. It's not entirely unlike saying that we are now 100% on renewable energy sources in Ireland, so that's it, we will be safe from Global warming whatever China or rest of the world does.

Well, relatively wealthy European states looking after other relatively wealthy European states first isn’t exactly going to be feelgood story of the year in the Trocaire annual report.

I take your point though — but I would say that the point I am making is a philosophical rather than practical one. Irish society and Irish citizens, in general, are in a far better position to weather and survive further lockdowns than huge swathes of Indian society would be — not to mention that conditions there leave them far more prone to actual virus deaths. But I just don’t think there is much point in dancing around the fact that the developed countries are going to be largely selfish with vaccines — and deep down we are kind of glad of that even if we tell ourselves that it’s just the way the world works.

positron

Not sure if the FT article goes into any details I was looking for, it's behinda a paywall.

Meanwhile, by middle of last month, out of 75 million fully vaccinated Americans, 5,800 got COVID-19, and 74 died.

https://www.businessinsider.com/infected-after-covid-vaccination-cdc-numbers-breakthrough-infections-2021-4?r=US&IR=T

So clearly 9 of 194 doctors (who are at higher risk of being constant exposure to Covid, I assume) probably does not prove much, but let us see what comes out of further research.

positron

Patrick2010 wrote: »

India obviously have money to spend on a space program...

https://text.npr.org/792927666

I have seen this type of comments before and I don't understand it.

Why does it have to be an either / or when it comes to poverty and space program?

There are plenty of homeless people around our towns and that doesn't stop us from building new hospitals or schools or Christmas decorations for the town?

Should ESA stop it's operations until poverty is eradicated in Bulgaria? US should stop funding NASA until they fix their crazy levels of poverty & homelessness?

Space programs are about progressing science and technology, inspiring young people to get into science, predicting weather and of course some infrastructure/security aspects as well, like building on GPS equivalent system for defense use - because, well, unlike Ireland, India has China next door, and without some level of defense power (sometimes even with) it will become a mere pawn in the power plays and cold wars of the future between US and whoever crosses US's path.

In fact, Indian Space programs have been widely acknowledged as extremely efficient, open and scientifically driven - they work with ESA, NSA and similar organisations from China as well as Japan. I just don't get the argument against space programs!

Anyway, this is all totally unrelated to Covid, sorry about that.

positron

One final snippet:

The space expenditure of India as a percentage of gross domestic product (GDP) today stands at 0.09 per cent . Compared with the current annual government space budgets of US $2.5 billion for Japan, and US$1.5 billion for France, India's space budget is US$0.60 billion.

fly_agaric

ArthurDayne wrote: »

Indeed — no. Regardless of whatever spin you want to put on it, even if the world was set up any differently and all the coulda / woulda / shouldas, you would not be advocating sending European vaccines to India . . . or indeed anywhere else.

Nor would I, because selfishly I’d like to see my own country plough on and get out of this so I can have normal life back. Because I am selfish.

What "spin" have I put on it?
We live in a world of zero-sum games and nationalism. Completely selfless behaviour under such conditions will solve nothing + will just be taken advantage of by others who are more selfish (you can compare levels of selfishness).

As pointed out to you the EU/member states did actually try to limit that natural selfishness + my country first somewhat when it came to these vaccines + they have not gotten much thanks, more like dogs abuse from certain quarters. Likes of you with your sneers about "rich countries helping each other". Not all countries in the EU are rich even if none are at India levels of poverty, and an awful lot of vaccine has been exported from EU member states even if its under conditions of the "free market" & mostly going to those who can pay the MNCs for it (so middle income & wealthy countries in the main).

ArthurDayne wrote: »

And yet, come the end of the pandemic — when Covid and other respiratory illness are down to a nice arbitrary number that society deems to be fine — you will accept the deaths from these ongoing illnesses as a price worth paying for your freedoms and convenience. A measly couple of hundred dead from respiratory illness, some of whom a lockdown might have saved? Meh — not enough of them to take any further action over — back to the pub everyone. These people simply are not numerous enough to be saved, so long as you can have your life back. I do not start posturing myself as being morally superior by unilaterally calling others selfish or callous.

You pontificate and lecture about how clear-eyed you are about human selfishness which is a different sort of posturing.
You've reduced everything down to a binary "selfish"/"not selfish" (and unless completely selfless then say nothing whatsoever about others) which is stupid.
You've also omitted fact that there are/were other more important reasons for the restrictions apart from reducing preventable deaths from Covid-19.
I think the bible quote refers to "motes" in other people's eyes and "beams" in your own which is a more sensible way to think about it. The people who've been shouting about their freedoms and getting rid of restrictions for months definitely have had a beam problem with their attitudes that can be criticised even if I'm sure I've got some beams of my own.

screamer

positron wrote: »

Any source for this? This is against everything I've heard so far, but curious to know if there's any new info on this. Thanks!

It’s on the rte website, info coming from who. It’s not absolutely confirmed hence they use the word believe, but judging by the death rate there, I tend to believe what they do.
https://www.rte.ie/news/world/2021/0513/1221323-india-virus-global/

ArthurDayne

fly_agaric wrote: »

What "spin" have I put on it?
We live in a world of zero-sum games and nationalism. Completely selfless behaviour under such conditions will solve nothing + will just be taken advantage of by others who are more selfish (you can compare levels of selfishness).

As pointed out to you the EU/member states did actually try to limit that natural selfishness + my country first somewhat when it came to these vaccines + they have not gotten much thanks, more like dogs abuse from certain quarters. Likes of you with your sneers about "rich countries helping each other". Not all countries in the EU are rich even if none are at India levels of poverty, and an awful lot of vaccine has been exported from EU member states even if its under conditions of the "free market" & mostly going to those who can pay the MNCs for it (so middle income & wealthy countries in the main).



You pontificate and lecture about how clear-eyed you are about human selfishness which is a different sort of posturing.
You've reduced everything down to a binary "selfish"/"not selfish" (and unless completely selfless then say nothing whatsoever about others) which is stupid.
You've also omitted fact that there are/were other more important reasons for the restrictions apart from reducing preventable deaths from Covid-19.
I think the bible quote refers to "motes" in other people's eyes and "beams" in your own which is a more sensible way to think about it. The people who've been shouting about their freedoms and getting rid of restrictions for months definitely have had a beam problem with their attitudes that can be criticised even if I'm sure I've got some beams of my own.

Well there you go, we got there eventually — selfishness is a weakness shared by all and is inherent to varying extents in all our views, and is measured subjectively according to our own circumstances, experience and views. There is no posturing in me saying that my views are morally deficient. I am forced to accept that had my views been implemented, it is probable that more people would have died of Covid (at least within a shorter window). I’ve never ran away from that.

When the floodwaters of a tsunami recede, people rejoice. But the receding waters lay bare the devastation underneath. When lockdown recedes, people will rejoice, and then the newspapers will have to fill their columns with something other than case numbers and vaccines — and they will turn to the socioeconomic problems caused by lockdown. I ask only that you do not run away from the moral responsibility you will bear for it — nor run way from the fact that those socioeconomic problems cause misery and also contribute to death — but I can assure that I won’t be on here calling you selfish.

wes

Looks like they may found the origin of black fungus outbreak:
Doctors hint at cow dung-black fungus link as people turn to gobar for Covid ‘cure’

Cluedo Monopoly

Patrick2010 wrote: »

India obviously have money to spend on a space program...

https://text.npr.org/792927666

Modi was extremely embarassed and angry when their moon lander crashed.

You can see how chaotic it is and how nobody wanted to admit the problem.

Watch from 49 mins.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZM6PF0ewyaQ

Modi later came out and said the landing was 95% successful and should be celebrated.

wes

Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »

Modi later came out and said the landing was 95% successful and should be celebrated.

Reminds me of when Pakistan shot down an Indian fighter jet and captured the pilot, and Modi claimed their guy had shot down 2 Pakistani fighters (with 0 proof of course), and when Pakistan handed him back over in a peace gesture, they claimed it was because Pakistan was afraid of India and made the guy a hero who, as he "shot down" 2 Pakistani fighters, despite that being complete fiction. Modi made a fool of himself to the rest of the world.

Modi will go to lie about the reality of the situation has no bottom. We are seeing this to deadly effect with Covid 19, if Modi didn't lie, then an effective response could be made. Instead he is trying censor the facts.

screamer

The Indian strain has doubled in the uk in a week with over 1500 cases this week. It’s reported to be 60% more transmissible than the B117 Kent or so called uk variant. It’s in pockets of the uk right now, and unfortunately for us, also detected in the north. So, with the uk removing the last Covid measures soon to include social distancing and mask wearing let’s hope this strain from India is not vaccine resistant.

theguzman

screamer wrote: »

The Indian strain has doubled in the uk in a week with over 1500 cases this week. It’s reported to be 60% more transmissible than the B117 Kent or so called uk variant. It’s in pockets of the uk right now, and unfortunately for us, also detected in the north. So, with the uk removing the last Covid measures soon to include social distancing and mask wearing let’s hope this strain from India is not vaccine resistant.

Luckily for Ireland we are predominantly Pfizer vaccinated, the AstraZeneca I am very suspect of. Wait until the Indian variant hits Brazil, we ain't seen nothing yet I am afraid.