First Aid?

Cass

I'll take your word it.

otmmyboy2

Odd that the conversation has turned this way, but don't rely on tampons for traumatic wounds.

Can't believe I just typed that, but it is one of the myths still trotting around the internet.

Better than nothing, but not useful for arterial bleeding:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zSNQq-BCeE&ab_channel=CrisisMedicine

Cass

otmmyboy2 wrote: »

.......but don't rely on tampons for traumatic wounds.

I had no intention of doing so.

Can't believe I just typed that,]

You're not alone.

tomtucker81

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Question on Defibs and medical 1st aid here in IRL
What is the legal position with you using one of these without any training on a victim here, and what is also the position legally here if you render 1st aid in good faith, but do more harm.

IE say you drag someone out of a car wreck who had a spinal injury and paralyze them, even though there was a risk of the wreck catching fire?

Is there an "absolvement of harm "[dunno what the proper legal term is] under Irish law for rendering 1st aid but making hames of it.
Germany for example, it's mandatory you do a 1st aid course with your driver's license, and you must have a 1st aid kit in your car at all times.

But you don't have to keep that course current or that 1st aid kit up to spec either, but you are absolved of any "medical malpractice" by having the course done if you act in a life-threatening situation. So where do we stand here?

I've seen paramedics at the scene of a serious Rtc disregard neck and back protocol and drag a man out of a car, reason being his head injuries were so bad they needed him out and gone to hospital. so a potential spinal injury was overlooked in favour of him being kept alive.

Life comes first, injuries can be dealt with after

Traumadoc

tomtucker81 wrote: »

I've seen paramedics at the scene of a serious Rtc disregard neck and back protocol and drag a man out of a car, reason being his head injuries were so bad they needed him out and gone to hospital. so a potential spinal injury was overlooked in favour of him being kept alive.

Life comes first, injuries can be dealt with after

Very surprised at that - - severe head injuries are markers for cervical spine injuries, and unless there is airway compromise or there is immediate risk of fire etc, I cannot see reason for this.

( yes I know the debate about hard collars -)

Rows Grower

It’s extremely rare for any vehicle to catch fire after a crash unless it’s in a movie.

SeaFields

CJhaughey wrote: »

That's what I tell my students, you do nothing, and that person is dead.

Attempt CPR and even if its not 100% correct that person has a hell of a lot better chance than none at all.
There was a case just a few years back where a schoolgirl of 13-14 in Dublin witnessed a person collapse and had just had CPR training, and put it to use and saved that persons life.

It really doesn't take that much and these days with compressions only being advised it is easier than ever with no 30:2 to remember.

We had training locally a couple of years ago. There was an incident where someone suffered a heart attack and sadly died. Some locals got together and organised training and local businesses sponsored some AEDs (which have been used once since).

The trainer was telling us of a recent previous student of hers that ended up doing compressions for 45 minutes with a Garda on a guy that collapsed on a footpath. The ambulance took that amount of time but the guy survived.

Would recommend the training to anyone. In fairness it's not complicated at all and what you find out in a few hours training is very useful. Hopefully I never need it!

tomtucker81

Traumadoc wrote: »

Very surprised at that - - severe head injuries are markers for cervical spine injuries, and unless there is airway compromise or there is immediate risk of fire etc, I cannot see reason for this.

( yes I know the debate about hard collars -)

I know, but in this instance the head injuries were so severe that death was imminent. It must come down to keeping someone alive even if it means a spinal injury over letting them die. That's a whole other debate really though.
In this particular incident their prompt action still wasnt enough.

Grizzly 45

Richard308 wrote: »

I’m serious sanitary towels should be in every pack. Two reasons
Unbelievably absorbent and (half sterile 5% of the price of dressings) great for keeping pressure on open wound.
Secondly
Great additional padding for a heavily pack or drag rope.
You get over the strange looks when your mate looks in your range bag for tool kit.

Why not just get a proper tool for the job 1st out when you have time and money to do so rather than rely on an improvised emergency might possibly work device.
https://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/article/severe-bleeding-first-aid-misconceptions-tampons/

Grizzly 45

Rows Grower wrote: »

It’s extremely rare for any vehicle to catch fire after a crash unless it’s in a movie.

AHEM!!!...Not too far from me. 2 years ago. https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/jonathan-healy-death-quinspool-clare-20332981.

Rows Grower

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Why not just get a proper tool for the job 1st out when you have time and money to do so rather than rely on an improvised emergency might possibly work device.
https://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/article/severe-bleeding-first-aid-misconceptions-tampons/

The general jist of the thread is do you carry a first aid kit when going shooting, the tampon idea is a good one because they are easy to carry, hygienically wrapped, effective for most cuts, widely available and low cost.

Any army medic going into a war situation is not going to be reading here for advice in all fairness.

Rows Grower

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

AHEM!!!...Not too far from me. 2 years ago. https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/jonathan-healy-death-quinspool-clare-20332981.

I was aware of that tragic accident when I posted what I did, I also know two people that have won the national lottery.

All extremely rare events.

Richard308

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Why not just get a proper tool for the job 1st out when you have time and money to do so rather than rely on an improvised emergency might possibly work device.
https://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/article/severe-bleeding-first-aid-misconceptions-tampons/

It depends where you are i suppose. And if you can afford it.

Richard308

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

AHEM!!!...Not too far from me. 2 years ago. https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/jonathan-healy-death-quinspool-clare-20332981.

How many accidents not too far from you in the last two years?

Grizzly 45

Richard308 wrote: »

How many accidents not too far from you in the last two years?

Two actually on that same stretch of road .

Grizzly 45

Rows Grower wrote: »

The general jist of the thread is do you carry a first aid kit when going shooting, the tampon idea is a good one because they are easy to carry, hygienically wrapped, effective for most cuts, widely available and low cost.

Any army medic going into a war situation is not going to be reading here for advice in all fairness.

Did you read the article I linked to? I guess not...All your assertations there are dismissed out of hand by a combat medic.Someone I assume knows what they are talking about when it comes to gunshot and major trauma injuries? But no doubt you have some medical qualifications to give a valid contary view on how a sanitary towel will stop major arterial or veinal bleeding and are wiling to demonstrate it too?

Grizzly 45

Rows Grower wrote: »

I was aware of that tragic accident when I posted what I did, I also know two people that have won the national lottery.

All extremely rare events.

But not unheard of...

Grizzly 45

Richard308 wrote: »

It depends where you are i suppose. And if you can afford it.

Here you go! From 3.70 to 2000 euros. Like Kevelar and trauma plates.What price do you put on your life? I'll gladly skip the price of 2 boxes of 308 hunting ammo for some Celox or quick clot bandages.:)
Sure if you want to use improvised and probably archetypal stories for your 1st aid...More power to you,but I'd rather just use and have the easier tools to hand.:)
https://www.spservices.ie/browse/MilitaryDressings_23_0_0_ns_12.html

meathstevie

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Carry a basic 1st aid kit in the car, and a basic trauma kit when hunting or chainsawing.[IE a lot of quick clot , Israeli bandages, tourniquet.] Not much point in carrying more stuff,if you arent qualified to use it, or don't know-how.

The rest of it is in the head stuff anyone should know...CPR, Heimlich maneuver, Mouth to mouth, stroke recognition, stopping bleeding.

A foot and a half loop of bailing twine and a good folding pocket knife ( think Opinel 10 or the likes ) will go a long way towards a tourniquet. After that the best first aid items I think is a charged mobile phone and a half liter bottle of clean water to rinse a wound or irrigate eyes.

Also, you shouldn’t forget you also carry so much on you and with you that can already be used in a first aid situation. Someone takes a dunk in ice cold water, share some of your dry clothes. Broken arm or dislocated shoulder etc etc undo your rifle sling and use it as an improvised arm sling. Deep cut and no bandage, wash it out with clean water and a good thick strip of shirt or t-shirt will go a long way until you get to A&E and so on.

And as you said, no amount of gear is worth a thing if you don’t know what you’re doing.

Richard308

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Here you go! From 3.70 to 2000 euros. Like Kevelar and trauma plates.What price do you put on your life? I'll gladly skip the price of 2 boxes of 308 hunting ammo for some Celox or quick clot bandages.:)
Sure if you want to use improvised and probably archetypal stories for your 1st aid...More power to you,but I'd rather just use and have the easier tools to hand.:)
https://www.spservices.ie/browse/MilitaryDressings_23_0_0_ns_12.html

Ok, I am giving an alternative where availability is an issue. Not out stalking or on the range 10 minutes from your local pharmacy. It was common a soldier would have a single field dressing stored in the shoulder of his smock or trousers. After going through swamps and god knows where else. They were never changed/replaced. In my first aid kits, I have proper dressings, it’s an improvised solution where no proper kit is available. believe or not, tampons are designed to absorb blood.

https://www.backdoorsurvival.com/fast-track-tip-8-uncommon-first-aid-items/

Grizzly 45

Richard308 wrote: »

Ok, I am giving an alternative where availability is an issue. Not out stalking or on the range 10 minutes from your local pharmacy.

It was common a soldier would have a single field dressing stored in the shoulder of his smock or trousers. After going through swamps and god knows where else. They were never changed/replaced.

Possibly by the end of WW 2that was true.But by then those paks were built to be military tough and require some work to get them out even when you want them.

In my first aid kits, I have proper dressings, it’s an improvised solution where no proper kit is available. believe or not, tampons are designed to absorb blood.

https://www.backdoorsurvival.com/fast-track-tip-8-uncommon-first-aid-items/

Yes it is better than nothing,but it is not the best option even in an emergency situation,you could just as easily use Cayenne pepper for a clotting agent and super glue as well in an emergency situation.Like maybe a plane crash in the wilderness,but if you are going about say to day life,out hunting or on the range or in your bug out bag,you are preparing for an emergency in the 1st place,so why not have the proper stuff to hand straight away?

Yes they do and are designed to absorb blood, but not strong arterial or venial flows.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nf_PPQOrKIc[/url]

Richard308

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Yes it is better than nothing,but it is not the best option even in an emergency situation,you could just as easily use Cayenne pepper for a clotting agent and super glue as well in an emergency situation.Like maybe a plane crash in the wilderness,but if you are going about say to day life,out hunting or on the range or in your bug out bag,you are preparing for an emergency in the 1st place,so why not have the proper stuff to hand straight away?

Yes they do and are designed to absorb blood, but not strong arterial or venial flows.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nf_PPQOrKIc[/url]

Firstly the dressings issued to the Irish army in mid 90’s to early noughties were not that good or tough. And they were next to impossible to get a spare one.Perhaps in well funded armies like the us has yes.
Secondly I think cayenne pepper would be scarcer and is this more sanitary than a sweaty/dirty shirt etc.
It was a suggestion that most households with women in them would have.
Obviously proper kit is the better option but….

tudderone

Lidl have first aid kits on special offer i think, cannot remember the price offhand, i'll be there tomorrow, i'll check.

cookimonster

I've had a few incarnations of the issued field dressings over the years, I seem to remember one covered in cloth, then others covered in flimsy plastic similar to a packet of tissues and sizes would vary over the years, with some of them not fitting in your field dressing pockets. Finally I ended up with this sort of one as seen in the picture-



Mostly, we would wrap them in plastic or some such to keep moisture out. I got 'chowned out' for been overly zealous with gaffa tape one time.

Regardless as to thier quality or suitability for 'robust training' (new buzz words) one thing I will give them is that they are designed for a purpose - gun shot wounds or other such potential holes poked in you.

You do need two as a good FMJ tends to leave two wounds. I love to show the trauma of gun shot wounds on deer to serving soldiers and remind them it's not all Die Hard walk away into the sunset after taking one for the team. Grant it as hunters we don't use FMJs but I won't want to get a smack of a 5.56 FMJ in a bone or dense tissues.

I've only dealt with occupational cuts, of various degrees and and a few breaks but experiences / stories relayed during lectures or over pints in the mess all say the same thing- for GSW you need loads of dressings. I know a phlebotomist and they'll tell you the amount and speed of the blood that can be lost if they hit the wrong spot with, say a 21 gauge (0.032 inch) needle is unbelievable to those who don't know.

Anyhow somewhere to spend some more money -

https://www.spservices.ie/item/TraumaFixMilitaryFieldDressing_23_0_3987_1.html

JP22

cookimonster wrote: »

.... I love to show the trauma of gun shot wounds on deer to serving soldiers and remind them it's not all Die Hard walk away into the sunset after taking one for the team.

Hopefully never again but I've seen first-hand what FMJ, HE and IED's can do to the human body. As Cookie says you will need some serious good quality kit for FMJ injuries.

My late dad pulled a farmer from a harvester years ago, his leg was gone but baler twine saved his life that day.

On a lighter note, we kept field dressings in a zip-lock plastic bag. Everyone carried one or more and god forbid if you didn’t carry one, the rule was you never used yours on someone else; you used the injured person own dressings.

Traumadoc

cookimonster wrote: »

I've had a few incarnations of the issued field dressings over the years, I seem to remember one covered in cloth, then others covered in flimsy plastic similar to a packet of tissues and sizes would vary over the years, with some of them not fitting in your field dressing pockets. Finally I ended up with this sort of one as seen in the picture-



Mostly, we would wrap them in plastic or some such to keep moisture out. I got 'chowned out' for been overly zealous with gaffa tape one time.

Regardless as to thier quality or suitability for 'robust training' (new buzz words) one thing I will give them is that they are designed for a purpose - gun shot wounds or other such potential holes poked in you.

You do need two as a good FMJ tends to leave two wounds. I love to show the trauma of gun shot wounds on deer to serving soldiers and remind them it's not all Die Hard walk away into the sunset after taking one for the team. Grant it as hunters we don't use FMJs but I won't want to get a smack of a 5.56 FMJ in a bone or dense tissues.

.
]

Funnily enough I have rarely treated high velocity wounds either except one HF.22LR , self inflicted , probably a reflection on the relatively peaceful society we live in, or the fact that high velocity generally never make it to me.
Treated a few low velocity , - rarely get shotgun injuries now as the criminals seem not to use sawn-offs any more.

Grizzly 45

[

QUOTE=cookimonster;117147731]I've had a few incarnations of the issued field dressings over the years, I seem to remember one covered in cloth, then others covered in flimsy plastic similar to a packet of tissues and sizes would vary over the years, with some of them not fitting in your field dressing pockets. Finally I ended up with this sort of one as seen in the picture-

The Bundeswehr was still issuing those until the late 80s.Still have one in my travel washbag,my cousin used to bring them home aplenty when he was doing national service. So they were not that out of date in the Irish army in personal trauma kit. BTW it should fit no bother in an old-style BW moleskin shirt pocket,or in the newer Flecktarn model as well.