Relaxation of Restrictions, Part XI *Read OP For Mod Warnings*

FintanMcluskey

pjohnson wrote: »

People really need to stop trying to glamourise suicide.

Definitely the most unsavoury tactic used by open uppers.

People really need to stop glamorising deaths of those beyond life expectancy.

Definitely the most unsavoury tactic used by lockdowners.

Boggles

timmyntc wrote: »

We have one of the narrowest tax bases in Europe.
It was on of the IMFs recommendations after 08 that we should widen our tax base so everyone pays a fair share rather than most of tax burden placed on "middle earners" - still has not been addressed.

So because we didn't do that we were able to increase our tax revenue during a once in a generation pandemic?

That's what happened in real terms, correct?

That is by hook or by crook a good thing?

Graham

Fandymo wrote: »

Media is mass read, circulation in the 100s of thousands. I think you are over estimating the reach of Boards. :rolleyes:

Some might call that a double standard. :rolleyes:

Would someone give me a nudge if we ever get back to discussion the relaxation of restrictions.

Fandymo

Boggles wrote: »

Well then you'll have no problem backing this statement up so.

In your own good time.

Hold on and I'll leak work info to a stranger on Boards. Would you like a copy of my ID and personnel number also?? Who do you think I am? Leo Varadkar??

Boggles

Fandymo wrote: »

Hold on and I'll leak work info to a stranger on Boards. Would you like a copy of my ID and personnel number also?? Who do you think I am? Leo Varadkar??

Leo does have a vivid imagination TBF.

So no proof to backup claim.

The same as all the rest so.

OwenM

Boggles wrote: »

So because we didn't do that we were able to increase our tax revenue during a once in a generation pandemic?

That's what happened in real terms, correct?

That is by hook or by crook a good thing?

Income tax take increased by itself, but not because of any pandemic tax policy changes?

A good thing, yes of course, but let's not imagine it was the result of any clever planning by DOF.

Boggles

OwenM wrote: »

Income tax take increased by itself, but not because of any pandemic tax policy changes?

A good thing, yes of course, but let's not imagine it was the result of any clever planning by DOF.

Again, I never suggested it was.

So apart from imagining things people didn't say, you 100% agree.

timmyntc

Boggles wrote: »

So because we didn't do that we were able to increase our tax revenue during a once in a generation pandemic?

That's what happened in real terms, correct?

That is by hook or by crook a good thing?

In the context of the pandemic its not a bad thing no - just saying that our lucky tax break is because middle earners (who by and large have still been working throughout) pay so much of the income tax in the state.

Nice for stability in a pandemic, not nice if you are a middle income earner. And not nice if there were layoffs at any scale in MNCs and so on. But that would be the opposite of the pandemic scenario, low earners keep working, middle earners made redundant.

Graham

Graham wrote: »

Either way, the easing of restrictions over the coming days/weeks is only a good thing no?

Generally, yes. But for some people it will bring an end to the "all in this together" mentality, and the increased inequalities—which can have a detrimental effect on existing mental health issues—will begin to be more evident. As some people are settling into the new homes they're able to afford because lockdown made saving easier, others will be getting turfed out of theirs because the business they owned or worked at is closed forever.

There's also the fact that, while suicide levels seem to have remained thankfully stable during the lockdown period (though true figures for 2020 won't be known until 2023 I believe), the number of people accessing mental health helplines doubled. That might be—and hopefully is—an indication that people who were unable to access their normal mental health assistance because of cancellations and closures found other ways to get support. But we can't know that yet, and despite being optimistic (for want of a better word) about 2020 suicide figures, even in the articles that are posted to prove that suicide is not up, it's clear that mental health professionals are very concerned about the ongoing and future effects of the lockdowns/pandemic on mental health.

Penfailed

Fandymo wrote: »

suicides have sky-rocketed over the past year.

Have they?

Boggles

timmyntc wrote: »

In the context of the pandemic its not a bad thing no - just saying that our lucky tax break is because middle earners (who by and large have still been working throughout) pay so much of the income tax in the state.

Nice for stability in a pandemic, not nice if you are a middle income earner. And not nice if there were layoffs at any scale in MNCs and so on. But that would be the opposite of the pandemic scenario, low earners keep working, middle earners made redundant.

Well that's that so in context. Good thing.

The rest while far more nuanced than you are making it out to be is for another forum.

timmyntc

Boggles wrote: »

Well that's that so in context. Good thing.

The rest while far more nuanced than you are making it out to be is for another forum.

Whats with the attitude? I just clarified an earlier post explaining why our tax take was up despite the layoffs of 600k. There is no gotcha or anything, just an explanation.

OwenM

Boggles wrote: »

Again, I never suggested it was.

So apart from imagining things people didn't say, you 100% agree.

I didn't imagine anything, you were the one that implied our failure to broaden the tax base has led to increased income tax revenue, that's imaginary.

I 100% agree the income tax take has increased. <--There's a full stop at the end of that sentence.

JeffKenna

timmyntc wrote: »

Whats with the attitude? I just clarified an earlier post explaining why our tax take was up despite the layoffs of 600k. There is no gotcha or anything, just an explanation.

But people receiving PUP are still paying income tax on that no? A lot of part time being actually increased their take home pay due to PUP and paid tax on that.

mohawk

Dempo1 wrote: »

All fair points, just on the income tax receipts, quite extraordinary that with near 600k out of work and for a prolonged period, income tax receipts barely affected

I'm guessing this new approach is to get Covid supports finished ASAP.

I think the income tax receipts are a strong indicator of a widening gap between those who have a secure job versus those in low income jobs. I have a secure job and even got a significant pay rise last year (yes I am lucky). However, I can see that there are many who have struggled financially over last year. Many of the sectors that have had to close have significant numbers of lower paid workers. Those people are often living paycheque to paycheque.

You didn’t do it in your post but there are many who seem to think the income tax receipts are indicating all is well in the economy.

I am genuinely delighted for all the small business owners and their employees who get to reopen over next few weeks. I really hope they get to stay open and get back on their feet if they are struggling financially now.

Boggles

Deleted User wrote: »

others will be getting turfed out of theirs because the business they owned or worked at is closed forever.

Again, just to color a false narrative that gets thrown out their.

Insolvencies have been down throughout the pandemic.

A total of 111 corporate insolvencies were recorded in Ireland in the first quarter of 2021, according to the latest insolvency statistics published by Deloitte. This represents a marked decrease of 30% from the same quarter in 2020, when 159 incidents were recorded.

Deloitte believes that this low level of insolvency activity is likely to be influenced by the broad range of measures introduced by the government to support struggling companies and their employees through the adverse impacts of the Covid-19 pandemic

The hyper level of fear and doom mongering during this pandemic by certain cohorts is inexcusable and down right nefarious.

'Sky rocketing suicides' - 'Mass business Closures' - 'Locked down until 2022' - 'unable to fund health service' - 'country crippled with debt'

It has really highlighted a particular evil side of certain at least online personas.

Boggles

OwenM wrote: »

I didn't imagine anything, you were the one that implied our failure to broaden the tax base has led to increased income tax revenue, that's imaginary.

I 100% agree the income tax take has increased. <--There's a full stop at the end of that sentence.

It's not my opinion, it's simple maths.

A point the OP agrees with.

Boggles

timmyntc wrote: »

Whats with the attitude? I just clarified an earlier post explaining why our tax take was up despite the layoffs of 600k. There is no gotcha or anything, just an explanation.

Attitude?

You agreed me, I agreed with you.

Getting into a long discussion about tax bases is for another forum / thread, no?

Penfailed

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Generally, yes. But for some people it will bring an end to the "all in this together" mentality, and the increased inequalities—which can have a detrimental effect on existing mental health issues—will begin to be more evident. As some people are settling into the new homes they're able to afford because lockdown made saving easier, others will be getting turfed out of theirs because the business they owned or worked at is closed forever.

There's also the fact that, while suicide levels seem to have remained thankfully stable during the lockdown period (though true figures for 2020 won't be known until 2023 I believe), the number of people accessing mental health helplines doubled. That might be—and hopefully is—an indication that people who were unable to access their normal mental health assistance because of cancellations and closures found other ways to get support. But we can't know that yet, and despite being optimistic (for want of a better word) about 2020 suicide figures, even in the articles that are posted to prove that suicide is not up, it's clear that mental health professionals are very concerned about the ongoing and future effects of the lockdowns/pandemic on mental health.

Indeed. Also, mental health is being talked about more and people are being more open about it. I've no doubt that Covid/media/lockdowns have exacerbated mental health issues to an extent. However, messages such as, "It's okay not to be okay," have encouraged more people to seek help than would have otherwise. That's a good thing. The more people who open up and speak about their issues and get the help they require, the more suicide can be tackled. Ireland had a very high rate of suicide compared to other countries prior to this. The figures need to come down.

timmyntc

Boggles wrote: »

Attitude?

You agreed me, I agreed with you.

Getting into a long discussion about tax bases is for another forum / thread, no?

apologies then - must have gotten wrong end of the stick.
Yes I dont mean to get into a discussion on tax bases - just explaining why our income tax is up

Penfailed

Penfailed wrote: »

Indeed. Also, mental health is being talked about more and people are being more open about it. I've no doubt that Covid/media/lockdowns have exacerbated mental health issues to an extent. However, messages such as, "It's okay not to be okay," have encouraged more people to seek help than would have otherwise. That's a good thing. The more people who open up and speak about their issues and get the help they require, the more suicide can be tackled. Ireland had a very high rate of suicide compared to other countries prior to this. The figures need to come down.

Yep, I can agree with all of that, and I hope you're right about the increase being due to more people seeking help rather than more people needing help.

niallo27

Boggles wrote: »

Attitude?

You agreed me, I agreed with you.

Getting into a long discussion about tax bases is for another forum / thread, no?

Your even trying yo start arguments with posters that agree with you now, it's time to take a break.

Boggles

niallo27 wrote: »

Your even trying yo start arguments with posters that agree with you now, it's time to take a break.

There was no argument Niallo, we sorted it out.

Thanks for your concern.

Penfailed

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Yep, I can agree with all of that, and I hope you're right about the increase being due to more people seeking help rather than more people needing help.

It could well be a bit of both.

paw patrol

pjohnson wrote: »

People really need to stop trying to glamourise suicide.

Definitely the most unsavoury tactic used by open uppers.

a horrible comment.
shame on you and those that liked the comment.

Nobody glamorised suicide.
you disgust me.

charlie14

Stormyteacup wrote: »

Yes ‘when facts change, I change my mind’ - I was questioning which facts had changed so dramatically in the last two weeks that led to a jubilant CMO.

The 14 day data from the U.K. first phase of opening and increase in vaccine supply that will leave us at that level of those vaccinated when we go to the same phase of opening would be my guess.

Some here seem to believe it is due to somebody telling a joke that put NPHET in a good mood, but I would find that doubtful

Necro

Can you all please cop on and stop the petty bickering, there's plenty to discuss but do so in a civil manner WITHOUT the bitching and sniping from both sides.

TomSweeney

https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2021/0507/1217546-coronavirus-uk-variant/

You could recycle the headlines every couple of weeks, reading on you see

"There is currently insufficient evidence to indicate that any of the variants recently detected in India cause more severe disease or render the vaccines currently deployed any less effective," PHE said in a statement.

So vaccines appear to work against them, yet they will still drag the variants (which will be endless) up every few weeks to justify prolonging measures.

DaSilva

TomSweeney wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2021/0507/1217546-coronavirus-uk-variant/

You could recycle the headlines every couple of weeks, reading on you see



So vaccines appear to work against them, yet they will still drag the variants (which will be endless) up every few weeks to justify prolonging measures.

I don't think its to prolong measures, its to get clicks and make headlines. Even though everyone is now sick of these scare stories people are still drawn to them because of the fear this could be the one, I don't blame them, I blame the cheap ambulance chasing style journalism.

A good piece on variants dating all the way back to the original notable mutations before they became pop-science would be great. But its much easier and generates more clicks to post a scare piece every time detailing all the disaster what ifs?! (deadlier! more transmissible! evades immunity!)

Degag

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

People really need to stop glamorising deaths of those beyond life expectancy.

Definitely the most unsavoury tactic used by lockdowners.

So if you're past your expected life expectancy than it doesn't matter if you die?