Relaxation of Restrictions, Part XI *Read OP For Mod Warnings*

Marty Bird

charlie14 wrote: »

You cited the Great Barrington Declaration pointing to how many had signed it as an alternative to lockdown, and you have expressed your belief of other experts you have named, so why so shy now to express whether you agree or not with the Barrington Declaration ?

Can I ask what European country you are talking about ?

charlie14

ceadaoin. wrote: »

No, that isn't the only one response at all. It advocates for herd immunity through infection and also vaccines. And focused protection of the most vulnerable which is something that has previously been a main tenet of public health.

I`m sure you can also find how herd immunity was going to be achieved without any restrictions to protect the vulnerable while this natural herd immunity was being achieved in that declaration ?

Silentcorner

charlie14 wrote: »

You cited the Great Barrington Declaration pointing to how many had signed it as an alternative to lockdown, and you have expressed your belief of other experts you have named, so why so shy now to express whether you agree or not with the Barrington Declaration ?

Because each country faces a different challenge...this country has it's own unique challenge, our completely dysfunctional shambolic Health System...do I agree with elements in the GBD, absolutely....do I agree with a degree of restrictions, absolutely.

Are you ever going to tell us what European country you were on about earlier?

ArthurDayne

charlie14 wrote: »

On naturally acquired herd immunity for Covid-19 ?
No you have not expressed your opinion even though you have been asked numerous times.

Their was only one response to the pandemic advocated by the Great Barrington Declaration that those you call experts sign and you cited as an alternative to lockdown. Naturally acquired herd immunity.

Is that what the Great Barrington Declaration actually says though? From my reading of it, and they don’t appear to go into much detail, they seemed to advocate building up herd immunity among the non-vulnerable while taking steps to protect the vulnerable. They seem to exclude the vulnerable from the herd immunity cohort.

Even if one disagrees over the practical outcome of the ideas advocated by the Declaration, it certainly doesn’t seem that what they were advocating was a pure form of naturally acquired herd immunity — but rather a targeted form.

ceadaoin.

charlie14 wrote: »

I`m sure you can also find how herd immunity was going to be achieved without any restrictions to protect the vulnerable while this natural herd immunity was being achieved in that declaration ?

Sorry, what? I don't understand this question lol. They do suggest measures to protect the vulnerable though

charlie14

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Sorry, what? I don't understand this question lol. They do suggest measures to protect the vulnerable though

LOL. I think you understood the question without any problem whatsoever. I think you understand the suggested measures to protect the vulnerable as well for what they are. Impractical lipservice.

charlie14

ArthurDayne wrote: »

Is that what the Great Barrington Declaration actually says though? From my reading of it, and they don’t appear to go into much detail, they seemed to advocate building up herd immunity among the non-vulnerable while taking steps to protect the vulnerable. They seem to exclude the vulnerable from the herd immunity cohort.

Even if one disagrees over the practical outcome of the ideas advocated by the Declaration, it certainly doesn’t seem that what they were advocating was a pure form of naturally acquired herd immunity — but rather a targeted form.

They are very light on protecting the vulnerable. Magic thinking I believe best covers it.

Silentcorner

charlie14 wrote: »

They are very light on protecting the vulnerable. Magic thinking I believe best covers it.

It worked well in Florida the place is booming!

What European country were you on about earlier, you've been asked at least a half a dozen times now...

charlie14

Silentcorner wrote: »

Because each country faces a different challenge...this country has it's own unique challenge, our completely dysfunctional shambolic Health System...do I agree with elements in the GBD, absolutely....do I agree with a degree of restrictions, absolutely.

Are you ever going to tell us what European country you were on about earlier?

You cite the Great Barrington Declaration as an alternative approach to dealing with Covid-19 but now it has become..... something...... something different challenges.......... lol.

Have you even read this declaration you cited ?
It advocates natural herd immunity. There is no degree of restrictions.

Why is everyone in such a hurry to move on from the Great Barrington Declaration ?
I mean it has been signed by so many experts and launched by such a reputable scientific institute I`m surprised at the haste to not explore it more.:rolleyes:

gozunda

Silentcorner wrote: »

Seriously...

I am aware of a few US States that took the scientific route and they have fared very well...economy booming, infections on a par with everyone else...but do tell, what European country was the scientific route a disaster?

Genuine question - Which particular 'scientific route' are you referring to?

Penfailed

charlie14 wrote: »

And attempting acquired herd immunity as advocated by your Barrington Declaration which you support is a scientific policy ?
You may have missed it but it has been tried in a European country and failed miserably.

Which European country? It's a straightforward question.

Silentcorner

gozunda wrote: »

Genuine question - Which particular 'scientific route' are you referring to?

According to the Governor of Florida, Ron DiSantos, he took the advice of leading experts from Harvard and Stanford...which recommended shielding the vulnerable and allowing normal life resume with a small degree of restrictions, many of which are now dropped altogether....the recommendations he followed are consistent with the GBD!

Other States took a similar very light touch approach to restrictions, nothing like we are seeing here, and fared similar if not better than States who took the severe lock down route.

(I do appreciate the climate of the State which will impact on outcomes)

ArthurDayne

charlie14 wrote: »

They are very light on protecting the vulnerable. Magic thinking I believe best covers it.

Well, that’s fair enough, as long as we aren’t mischaracterising what the Declaration actually says or advocates.
Magic thinking or otherwise, in terms of what it’s advocating, there are elements which aren’t a million miles off what was pursued in Ireland. I mean, while we did not pursue herd immunity or targeted cohort herd immunity as the Declaration does, we did not pursue Zero Covid either. What we had was something somewhere in between, where we allowed the virus to circulate to some extent and we even willingly accepted its resurgence through a couple of reopening phases — while attempting to shield the vulnerable.

Ultimately the Irish strategy did itself dabble in the idea that restoring some vestiges of normality while shielding the vulnerable to the extent possible — and that peoples’ lives were a price worth paying for that.

Personally, I do get the feeling that people (on both sides of the debate) have incorrectly taken the view that the Great Barrington Declaration advocates something much more extreme than it actually does. The anti-lockdown folk seem to think it’s a great heroic cry to end restrictions, while the pro-leaning folk seem to think it’s some eccentric uber-libertarian cry to ket the virus rip to achieve herd immunity whatever the cost of life. I’m getting the sense you fall into that latter bucket and, as a result of thinking they are advocating pure herd immunity, you’re calling it magical thinking even though what it calls for in practical terms isn’t utterly and totally misaligned to strategies pursued around the world to varying degrees.

PTH2009

Is there a plan for autumn/Winter 2021 in regards actually avoiding a lockdown for whatever reason

I imagine the Variants topic will be around for many years but vaccine supply might be very high by then

No doubt the government have no real plan made up

charlie14

Penfailed wrote: »

Which European country? It's a straightforward question.

I generally would regard it as such, but when a poster will not even say what he regards in his own words "the scientific route" is, and who favours the Great Barrington Declaration I don`t feel particularly inclined too.

charlie14

ArthurDayne wrote: »

Well, that’s fair enough, as long as we aren’t mischaracterising what the Declaration actually says or advocates.
Magic thinking or otherwise, in terms of what it’s advocating, there are elements which aren’t a million miles off what was pursued in Ireland. I mean, while we did not pursue herd immunity or targeted cohort herd immunity as the Declaration does, we did not pursue Zero Covid either. What we had was something somewhere in between, where we allowed the virus to circulate to some extent and we even willingly accepted its resurgence through a couple of reopening phases — while attempting to shield the vulnerable.

Ultimately the Irish strategy did itself dabble in the idea that restoring some vestiges of normality while shielding the vulnerable to the extent possible — and that peoples’ lives were a price worth paying for that.

Personally, I do get the feeling that people (on both sides of the debate) have incorrectly taken the view that the Great Barrington Declaration advocates something much more extreme than it actually does. The anti-lockdown folk seem to think it’s a great heroic cry to end restrictions, while the pro-leaning folk seem to think it’s some eccentric uber-libertarian cry to ket the virus rip to achieve herd immunity whatever the cost of life. I’m getting the sense you fall into that latter bucket and, as a result of thinking they are advocating pure herd immunity, you’re calling it magical thinking even though what it calls for in practical terms isn’t utterly and totally misaligned to strategies pursued around the world to varying degrees.

Arthur there are no if or buts as to what the Great Barrington Declaration is advocating. It is naturally acquired herd immunity and the protection of the vulnerable is so impractical on nursing home staff and multi generational families alone it does not even reach the level of magical thinking.

Penfailed

PTH2009 wrote: »

Is there a plan for autumn/Winter 2021 in regards actually avoiding a lockdown for whatever reason

Vaccination.

Silentcorner

charlie14 wrote: »

Arthur there are no if or buts as to what the Great Barrington Declaration is advocating. It is naturally acquired herd immunity and the protection of the vulnerable is so impractical on nursing home staff and multi generational families alone it does not even reach the level of magical thinking.

Funny that, isn't Florida where they go to retire....and yet they still managed to cope without lock downs...that is the big problem as I see it...Florida is like a big red flag in the lock down argument, unlike South Dakota which has a much smaller population without major urban sprawl, Florida should have been the state that suffered the most given it's demographics.

But the place is booming, Americans are flocking there....they path they followed is consistent with the GBD.

Could we have gone as loose with restrictions, I'd say not, given the abysmal Health System that gets overwhelmed for months at a time year in year out and the manner at which the virus surges at wintertime.

Silentcorner

charlie14 wrote: »

I generally would regard it as such, but when a poster will not even say what he regards in his own words "the scientific route" is, and who favours the Great Barrington Declaration I don`t feel particularly inclined too.

Just be honest....you are spoofing.

I've made my position on the GBD as clear as crystal.

Penfailed

charlie14 wrote: »

I generally would regard it as such, but when a poster will not even say what he regards in his own words "the scientific route" is, and who favours the Great Barrington Declaration I don`t feel particularly inclined too.

Yet you accuse him of disingenuous posting.

ArthurDayne

charlie14 wrote: »

Arthur there are no if or buts as to what the Great Barrington Declaration is advocating. It is naturally acquired herd immunity and the protection of the vulnerable is so impractical on nursing home staff and multi generational families alone it does not even reach the level of magical thinking.

The Declaration advocates the lifting of restrictions to the extent that the non-vulnerable can have as normal a life as possible while the vulnerable are shielded. Right?

Is it not true that, at various stages of the Irish lockdown chronology: (a) the lockdown was lifted to reinstate some forms of normality? (b) these reopenings were done in the context where it was that shielding measures would mitigate the effect on the vulnerable population? and (c) this was all done in the knowledge that — even with shielding — the virus was still circulating, would be able to circulate even more freely, and would kill vulnerable people to at least some greater extent than would be the case if there wasn’t a reopening?

You’re calling it magical thinking even though the practicalities of what the Great Barrington Declaration advocates (again, fully acknowledging that the goals were different) were actually at times pursued as part of the Irish strategy.

TrangiaCoffee

Silentcorner wrote: »

According to the Governor of Florida, Ron DiSantos, he took the advice of leading experts from Harvard and Stanford...which recommended shielding the vulnerable and allowing normal life resume with a small degree of restrictions, many of which are now dropped altogether....the recommendations he followed are consistent with the GBD!

Other States took a similar very light touch approach to restrictions, nothing like we are seeing here, and fared similar if not better than States who took the severe lock down route.

(I do appreciate the climate of the State which will impact on outcomes)

Lockdown supporters on here have already discredited climate on limiting covid when they were arguing against Sumner reopening here.

They can't turn around and use it in Florida's case just because it suits.

the kelt

Is “Great Barrington” a new country we haven’t heard about?

It’s becoming comedy gold on here with posters desperately pushing the “lockdown” agenda even still.

charlie14

Silentcorner wrote: »

Funny that, isn't Florida where they go to retire....and yet they still managed to cope without lock downs...that is the big problem as I see it...Florida is like a big red flag in the lock down argument, unlike South Dakota which has a much smaller population without major urban sprawl, Florida should have been the state that suffered the most given it's demographics.

But the place is booming, Americans are flocking there....they path they followed is consistent with the GBD.

Could we have gone as loose with restrictions, I'd say not, given the abysmal Health System that gets overwhelmed for months at a time year in year out and the manner at which the virus surges at wintertime.

Funny enough you should mention Florida and the retired.
There are a lot of care homes in Florida and a lot of intergenerational families.
Did Florida follow the Great Barrington Declaration in regard to both of those situation ?
There are a lot of elderly working at least part-time in Florida. Did Florida follow the Barrington Declaration as regards those as well ?

Hopefully a lot of posters here will be able to get back to work over the next few weeks, instead of being glued to this all day, every day.

Best of luck!

charlie14

the kelt wrote: »

Is “Great Barrington” a new country we haven’t heard about?

It’s becoming comedy gold on here with posters desperately pushing the “lockdown” agenda even still.

We would have been better never hearing about it.

It`s a load of libertarian nonsense.

charlie14

Penfailed wrote: »

Yet you accuse him of disingenuous posting.

And ?
He cited the Great Barrington Declaration as an alternative to lockdown. It is a policy of natural acquired herd immunity yet he cannot even answer if he favours the policy or not.

paddyisreal

charlie14 wrote: »

We would have been better never hearing about it.

It`s a load of libertarian nonsense.

What country is that libertarian nonsense in again ?

charlie14

TrangiaCoffee wrote: »

Lockdown supporters on here have already discredited climate on limiting covid when they were arguing against Sumner reopening here.

They can't turn around and use it in Florida's case just because it suits.

Not sure climate temperature is a great metric on its own. Cases fell off in Europe last Summer, but there are a lot of countries with warmer climates where it didn`t help.

gozunda

Silentcorner wrote: »

According to the Governor of Florida, Ron DiSantos, he took the advice of leading experts from Harvard and Stanford...which recommended shielding the vulnerable and allowing normal life resume with a small degree of restrictions, many of which are now dropped altogether....the recommendations he followed are consistent with the GBD!

Other States took a similar very light touch approach to restrictions, nothing like we are seeing here, and fared similar if not better than States who took the severe lock down route.

(I do appreciate the climate of the State which will impact on outcomes)

OK. Yet countries around the world employed scientific experts to advise on the control the rate of infection including the use of restrictions and lockdowns.

Though I note oddly enough you seem to believe lockdowns are 'unscientific".

You do know that Florida is no shining jewel in the US crown with regard to overall deaths and case numbers? Its not the worst but its certainly not the best either.

Interestingly the state of Florida did employ widespread restrictions . With DeSantis employing lockdowns / stay at home orders at the start of the Pandemic

https://www.tampabay.com/news/health/2020/04/01/florida-gov-ron-desantis-issues-statewide-stay-at-home-order/

In the second half 2020 - when Desantis started to roll back restrictions - Florida experienced daily case numbers surpassing the previous US daily record for new cases. Two major peaks of infection followed when health care being stretched beyond resources in many counties

That said things do seem to have improved - with the good news Florida seems to be getting towards a critical number vaccinsted with 44% of its residents at least partially vaccinated

Although interestingly Florida remains the leading state in the US with cases of the highly transmissible B.1.1.7 variant amongst others and is in the top 10 US states where coronavirus is spreading the fastest on a per-person basis.

https://abcnews.go.com/Health/florida-reports-10000-covid-19-variant-cases-surge/story?id=77553100

That said looks like the last of the restrictions there are being rolled back this week.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/05/03/florida-governor-desantis-suspends-all-remaining-covid-restrictions.html