Relaxation of Restrictions, Part XI *Read OP For Mod Warnings*

normanoffside

speckle wrote: »

that thread led me to the below... re overall respiratory infections last year...on which questions also need to be asked before next winter...as I do not want to hear then even a whisper of the word restrictions like we had again.

And if it is true the HSE refused ICU to 90% of older people last spring co morbid or not..alot of other questions need to be asked...because alot of younger people suffered at home to make room for them with moderate covid while the extra room via the private hospitals was under used in many places except for kerry, one in dublinand possibly a few others.. if I remember correctly.

https://mobile.twitter.com/halftwottered/status/1392058590941286410

Yeah our Health system is just a mismanaged mess

It was also reported today that 15% of our total deaths (750) were in people who contracted Covid inside Hospitals. I'd say that's the majority of people who actually died with covid in Hospitals
That coupled with care homes means that over half our deaths actually caught it in healthcare settings


https://twitter.com/IrishTimes/status/1391879997829238788

charlie14

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

Considering 92% of deaths occur in the over 65 population I wonder where would Ireland be in the table pro rata over 65?

In relation to restrictions and Covid deaths in the over 65`s I can give you the stats for 4 neighbouring countries where three used lockdown and one not so much, but I very much doubt you would want to see them Fintan.

normanoffside

I'm actually shocked that Donnelly has criticised NPHET :eek:

https://twitter.com/IrishTimes/status/1392136346714742786

Silentcorner

charlie14 wrote: »

In relation to restrictions and Covid deaths in the over 65`s I can give you the stats for 4 neighbouring countries where three used lockdown and one not so much, but I very much doubt you would want to see them Fintan.

Ah so it was Sweden you were referring to Charlie.

You couldn't bring yourself to say it....

Going by the data above they fared around average in Europe, and probably had a few soft flu seasons in the years prior to 2020....which would have an impact on numbers....

You couldn't bring yourself to say it because it doesn't stand!!! Sweden fared just fine.

paddyisreal

charlie14 wrote: »

In relation to restrictions and Covid deaths in the over 65`s I can give you the stats for 4 neighbouring countries where three used lockdown and one not so much, but I very much doubt you would want to see them Fintan.

You can give 4 countries here but not the 1 numerous posts have requested.

FintanMcluskey

charlie14 wrote: »

In relation to restrictions and Covid deaths in the over 65`s I can give you the stats for 4 neighbouring countries where three used lockdown and one not so much, but I very much doubt you would want to see them Fintan.

I’d love to see them

Silentcorner

Silentcorner wrote: »

Ah so it was Sweden you were referring to Charlie.

You couldn't bring yourself to say it....

Going by the data above they fared around average in Europe, and probably had a few soft flu seasons in the years prior to 2020....which would have an impact on numbers....

You couldn't bring yourself to say it because it doesn't stand!!! Sweden fared just fine.

Yeah, no.

https://www.thelocal.no/20200917/norway-rejects-swedish-claim-that-flu-explains-lower-covid-death-rate/


Scandinavia, an inconvenient thread truth

FintanMcluskey

normanoffside wrote: »

Yeah our Health system is just a mismanaged mess

It was also reported today that 15% of our total deaths (750) were in people who contracted Covid inside Hospitals. I'd say that's the majority of people who actually died with covid in Hospitals
That coupled with care homes means that over half our deaths actually caught it in healthcare settings


https://twitter.com/IrishTimes/status/1391879997829238788

How does Ireland compare with other countries for hospital acquired Covid deaths?

Has there been 15,000 deaths in UK hospitals?

Silentcorner

Deleted User wrote: »

Yeah, no.

https://www.thelocal.no/20200917/norway-rejects-swedish-claim-that-flu-explains-lower-covid-death-rate/


Scandinavia, an inconvenient thread truth

Ha ha haaaaa....

So you take the word of the Norwegian who couldn't even pin the numbers...the closest he got was "When it comes to to the death toll from influenza in recent years, we're working on getting a detailed picture, but it doesn't look like there has been a particularly high death toll connected to influenza in recent years in Norway.” ...so he credits his lock down as the reason the Norwegians had a lower death rate...

Even if that is true...the Swedes finished mid table in Europe without lock down like the rest of us....funny that...the same is true of the US.

speckle

normanoffside wrote: »

Yeah our Health system is just a mismanaged mess

It was also reported today that 15% of our total deaths (750) were in people who contracted Covid inside Hospitals. I'd say that's the majority of people who actually died with covid in Hospitals
That coupled with care homes means that over half our deaths actually caught it in healthcare settings


https://twitter.com/IrishTimes/status/1391879997829238788

What I also take from that is the concept of nursing homes as we know it..has to be radically changed asap.

speckle

charlie14 wrote: »

In relation to restrictions and Covid deaths in the over 65`s I can give you the stats for 4 neighbouring countries where three used lockdown and one not so much, but I very much doubt you would want to see them Fintan.

Oops bit confused there for a second.. thought you said counties Charlie..was going to offer you kerry as one of them..

Silentcorner

Silentcorner wrote: »

Ha ha haaaaa....

So you take the word of the Norwegian who couldn't even pin the numbers...the closest he got was "When it comes to to the death toll from influenza in recent years, we're working on getting a detailed picture, but it doesn't look like there has been a particularly high death toll connected to influenza in recent years in Norway.” ...so he credits his lock down as the reason the Norwegians had a lower death rate...

Even if that is true...the Swedes finished mid table in Europe without lock down like the rest of us....funny that...the same is true of the US.

https://www.euromomo.eu/graphs-and-maps/

Have a look at Norway and Sweden and come back and tell why there was no difference until March 2020. Or Denmark for that matter.

“Sure it’s the soft flu season and everyone knows Norway has completely different demographics and flu season to Sweden”

So while against most of Europe Sweden fared middling-ish, against those most like them they were abysmal.
Oh, also, the Scandinavian diet is very high in vitamin d

FintanMcluskey

speckle wrote: »

What I also take from that is the concept of nursing homes as we know it..has to be radically changed asap.

How do we realistically reform any aspect of our health service without borrowing more?

We’ve already added the most Covid debt per person of all EU countries

We were already the most indebted nation in the EU before Covid, and still had an inadequate health service

charlie14

Silentcorner wrote: »

Ah so it was Sweden you were referring to Charlie.

You couldn't bring yourself to say it....

Going by the data above they fared around average in Europe, and probably had a few soft flu seasons in the years prior to 2020....which would have an impact on numbers....

You couldn't bring yourself to say it because it doesn't stand!!! Sweden fared just fine.

I never had a problem discussing Sweden other than with you due to you being disingenuous on your views on naturally acquired herd immunity.
You advocated the Barrington Declaration and kept referring to "the science" but when questioned on this science you refused to clarify if this was actual scientific data on Covid or the hypothetical science of naturally acquired herd immunity.

The had a soft flue season in 2020 as well. For the first 12 weeks of 2020 week on week they had less deaths than average yet their excess deaths for the year were 9,175 (10.34%) greater for the remaining 40 weeks of 2020.

charlie14

paddyisreal wrote: »

You can give 4 countries here but not the 1 numerous posts have requested.

One of the 4 is that country. Go on, have a guess which ?

charlie14

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

I’d love to see them

You already have Fintan. Numerous times.

Why don`t you do the honours this time rather than me.
Post the deaths for those 65 and over for Denmark, Norway, Sweden and Finland and the corresponding percentage of each countries population for that age group.

That was what you were asking in your previous post wasn`t it Fintan ?

Silentcorner

Deleted User wrote: »

https://www.euromomo.eu/graphs-and-maps/

Have a look at Norway and Sweden and come back and tell why there was no difference until March 2020. Or Denmark for that matter.

“Sure it’s the soft flu season and everyone knows Norway has completely different demographics and flu season to Sweden”

So while against most of Europe Sweden fared middling-ish, against those most like them they were abysmal.
Oh, also, the Scandinavian diet is very high in vitamin d

But you can't credit lock downs for that....

The only other place in the developed world we can compare this policy (between neighbouring or close States) to is the US...and the States that took the light touch fared just similar to (an better in some cases) those that locked down hard.

Sweden too the light touch route and fared just the same as the rest of Europe where many states, not least ourselves locked down hard.

The fact is, where we can compare, there is no conclusive case to be made that either strategy is more successful, which then begs the question, were hard lock downs necessary at all?

And we will also have to see what happens to the death rates across the world over the coming years when we find out exactly how much excess death the lock downs have caused!

Look, I know you have advocated for the extremely draconian, expensive, socially destructive lock down measures and have done for a long time now, but these policies are not throwing up the successes you seem to think exist!

Silentcorner

charlie14 wrote: »

I never had a problem discussing Sweden other than with you due to you

You were asked by a number of other posters...you didn't bother answering them either!

charlie14

Silentcorner wrote: »

You were asked by a number of other posters...you didn't bother answering them either!

None of the others were championing the Great Barrington Declaration advocating naturally acquired herd immunity. Nor did they mention "the science" which you refused to clarify when asked on numerous occasions

normanoffside

normanoffside wrote: »

Yeah our Health system is just a mismanaged mess

It was also reported today that 15% of our total deaths (750) were in people who contracted Covid inside Hospitals. I'd say that's the majority of people who actually died with covid in Hospitals
That coupled with care homes means that over half our deaths actually caught it in healthcare settings

Actually I was wrong, it's over 61% of our Covid deaths that acquired it while residing in healthcare settings

https://twitter.com/thenews2012/status/1391926070396563456

Silentcorner

Silentcorner wrote: »

But you can't credit lock downs for that....

The only other place in the developed world we can compare this policy (between neighbouring or close States) to is the US...and the States that took the light touch fared just similar to (an better in some cases) those that locked down hard.

Sweden too the light touch route and fared just the same as the rest of Europe where many states, not least ourselves locked down hard.

The fact is, where we can compare, there is no conclusive case to be made that either strategy is more successful, which then begs the question, were hard lock downs necessary at all?

And we will also have to see what happens to the death rates across the world over the coming years when we find out exactly how much excess death the lock downs have caused!

Look, I know you have advocated for the extremely draconian, expensive, socially destructive lock down measures and have done for a long time now, but these policies are not throwing up the successes you seem to think exist!

There you go again, pushing those that don’t fawn over the groupthink to the “extreme” box. I will have you know some in the main thread and the schools thread have dismissed me as being a Covid denier.

Big differences between north east US and sun belt or Scandinavia and Central Europe are to be expected for a myriad or reasons, however when you have two incredibly similar populations, and opposing approaches, the comparisons are as close to a controlled experiment as you could get. If MA and NY or FL and AZ had opposite approaches they could have served as good test cases also.

charlie14

Silentcorner wrote: »

But you can't credit lock downs for that....

The only other place in the developed world we can compare this policy (between neighbouring or close States) to is the US...and the States that took the light touch fared just similar to (an better in some cases) those that locked down hard.

Not true.
You can compare the four neighbouring states commonly referred to as the Nordic states. Denmark, Finland, Sweden and Norway.

Some here recently were talking about climate being a factor in Covid cases and even their year round climates are very similar as well.

cnocbui

charlie14 wrote: »

Not true.
You can compare the four neighbouring states commonly referred to as the Nordic states. Denmark, Finland, Sweden and Norway.

Some here recently were talking about climate being a factor in Covid cases and even their year round climates are very similar as well.

That's something new; I have never seen you take that tack before.


Oh, wait.... one thousand, two thousand, three..

Scratch that.

FintanMcluskey

normanoffside wrote: »

Actually I was wrong, it's over 61% of our Covid deaths that acquired it while residing in healthcare settings

https://twitter.com/thenews2012/status/1391926070396563456

It appears Ireland is starting to gain negative attention globally from those well regarded in the science and healthcare sector

Having the globes longest lockdown (and it’s associated health issues) despite the fact that community mitigation measures would have minimal effect on transmission in healthcare facilities

The medics in NPHET are starting sweat id say, after all the dogs on the street across the globe are starting to ask questions

FintanMcluskey

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

It appears Ireland is starting to gain negative attention globally from those well regarded in the science and healthcare sector

Having the globes longest lockdown (and it’s associated health issues) despite the fact that community mitigation measures would have minimal effect on transmission in healthcare facilities

The medics in NPHET are starting sweat id say, after all the dogs on the street across the globe are starting to ask questions

I though Mr Deng would be akin to lucifer here? Whereas in fact is is an unmitigated self publicist looking for whatever get him most attention.

Now for months you have been telling us that this only kills the vulnerable, so when evidence emerges that the most vulnerable, those already in healthcare, have suffered the greatest it’s suddenly evidence of our failure. Imagine what it would have been like if we just let it rip.

normanoffside

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

It appears Ireland is starting to gain negative attention globally from those well regarded in the science and healthcare sector

Having the globes longest lockdown (and it’s associated health issues) despite the fact that community mitigation measures would have minimal effect on transmission in healthcare facilities

The medics in NPHET are starting sweat id say, after all the dogs on the street across the globe are starting to ask questions

Even better, Michael Mina was just on Prime Time to talk down NPHET's avoidance of using Antigen tests.
He was able to use worldwide studies to show they work making a Wally of NPHET's Ray Walley who was only able to use anecdotal evidence (3 of his patients) to say they don't.

cnocbui

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

It appears Ireland is starting to gain negative attention globally from those well regarded in the science and healthcare sector

Having the globes longest lockdown (and it’s associated health issues) despite the fact that community mitigation measures would have minimal effect on transmission in healthcare facilities

The medics in NPHET are starting sweat id say, after all the dogs on the street across the globe are starting to ask questions

Given past form, there will be a searching enquiry into the tidal wave of deaths attributed to late diagnosed cancers and other illnesses, a few years after everyone currently involved has shuffled off their mortal coils, to avoid any embarrasing calls for legal measures; like the waiting till now to do the the mother and babies home thing and waiting till most of the priests were gone before taking a look at the church historical child abuse and then creating legislation to put the whole lot out of legal reach.

charlie14

cnocbui wrote: »

That's something new; I have never seen you take that tack before.


Oh, wait.... one thousand, two thousand, three..

Scratch that.

You don`t believe the four neighbouring countries of Denmark, Sweden, Finland and Norway, with very similar year round climates are countries in the developed world

normanoffside

Mina has picked up the attitude of the government and NPHET very quickly.
Don't trust the people. Don't give them any responsibility

https://twitter.com/michaelmina_lab/status/1392227697510785026

FintanMcluskey

normanoffside wrote: »

Mina has picked up the attitude of the government and NPHET very quickly.
Don't trust the people. Don't give them any responsibility

https://twitter.com/michaelmina_lab/status/1392227697510785026

He’s right though

The amount of people I’ve heard say they are content with a haircut this week is absurd. Like some weird Stockholm syndrome

I’d be more content if I had the freedom the french people have

The infantilism of the Irish public is complete