Caitlyn Jenner's statement on trans girls in girls' sports (MOD NOTE IN OP)

Leroy42

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Absolutely not. Gosh you are a spinner.
It is perfectly normal for some people to identify as the opposite sex. That is how they feel..
But - contrary to what TRAs claim -
Transgender people are not literally the opposite sex.
Self ID does not entitle anyone to enter opposite sex spaces such as sport, refuges, jail, intimate venues.
Children should not be "affirmed" with drugs that render them infertile, impotent and irreversibly damaged.

What constitutes being male or female though? Bone density, height, weight, strength? Genitals? Ability to reproduce?

Within the traditional male, ie those born as a boy, there are massive variations. And even within groups training makes a significant difference.

Just saying transgender is unfair is simplistic and open to a debate on what is actually right.

Guy:Incognito

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

I don't know enough about it to decide I'm right and make a blanket statement on the issue. I'll leave that up to the people that do. I don't decide policy and I've never been inside a prison.

But you can have an opinion no? You can think about the pros and cons to come up with said opinion can you not? You can do a bit of research.

Off the top of your head, do you think having male criminals, people that have already shown no appreciation for laws and rules, mix freely with their female counterparts is a good idea?

km991148

dalyboy wrote: »

The the contest begin.

On the left corner ..... the deranged Twitter mob

On the right corner ..... the moderate conservative majority view

What about the deranged conservative Twitter mob? Or the conservative but trans accepting? Or the non Twitter deranged mob? Or the majority that is neither of the two things you mentioned? Or the conservative transperson speaking out on one issue?

Everyone must be pigeonholed.. it's nonesense in itself..

KaneToad

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

I was thinking though we might take a look at the special Olympics and see how they do things. You often get people who are VERY physically different competing against each other. It would be interesting to see how they manage to arrange that safely.

What is divisioning?
In Special Olympics competitions, athletes of all ability levels are encouraged to participate, and every athlete is recognized for his or her performance. Through a process called divisioning, Special Olympics competitions are structured so that athletes compete with other athletes of similar gender, age and ability in equitable divisions. This makes for exciting competitions!

ILoveYourVibes

isha wrote: »

Children should not be "affirmed" with drugs that render them infertile, impotent and irreversibly damaged.

No one WANTS this to happen.

Exploiting tragedies or teens who made confused wrong choices at a vulnerable seems unsavory.


If there are people doctors or parents who are that flippant with this kind of choice they are rare. And more to the point they are probably so emotionally unbalanced as not really to be a good measure of the trans community. And you are probably not going to stop them messing up their lives anyway if they are so determined.

The idea that anyone wants children to be deliberately damaged is ludicrous.

Moghead

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Likewise it is hugely dangerous to transfer males to the female estate. California recently moved 261 self ID trans prisoners to the women's prisons. It is also not inreasonable or hateful to call this out as wrong.

What would you do with them though, would they be safe in a mens prison in the USA?

ILoveYourVibes

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Using extreme situations in life and applying it as having to do with the average trans person is very much the 80s.

But transwoman are already competing in women's sports to the detriment of natal women, so the situations aren't extreme.

Leroy42

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Yadda Yadda Yadda. Nothing to do with what I wrote. You can refuse to accept/acknowledge Transpeople as natural, without being anti-Trans, and comparing Trans issues with the problems with homosexuality in society, is a false equivalence. You're simply spouting the opposite side of the propaganda you claim to dislike.



Doing so infers acceptance. If someone doesn't accept these Trans issues, then, they probably don't want to proclaim that acceptance.



And... more propaganda driven by the trans debate. Devalue and dismiss those who won't conform. That people are getting "angry" whenever they voice an opinion that counters that of Trans advocates. Make their responses into something emotional, and disregard the concerns people have.

The emotion, I'm afraid, comes from both sides. It is a very complex issue, one that goes to the very heart of what we understand a man or woman to be and whether than is based on reality or just our perceptions.

ILoveYourVibes

KaneToad wrote: »

What is divisioning?
In Special Olympics competitions, athletes of all ability levels are encouraged to participate, and every athlete is recognized for his or her performance. Through a process called divisioning, Special Olympics competitions are structured so that athletes compete with other athletes of similar gender, age and ability in equitable divisions. This makes for exciting competitions!

AH HA ! Thank you for being smarter than i !

https://www.abudhabi2019.org/recent-news/special-olympics-divisioning-explained

KaneToad

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

No one WANTS this to happen.

Exploiting tragedies or teens who made confused wrong choices at a vulnerable seems unsavory.


If there are people doctors or parents who are that flippant with this kind of choice they are rare. And more to the point they are probably so emotionally unbalanced as not really to be a good measure of the trans community. And you are probably not going to stop them messing up their lives anyway if they are so determined.

The idea that anyone wants children to be deliberately damaged is ludicrous.

Apologies, very off topic, but male circumcision is an example of this that is readily accepted...

Leroy42

Hhhhh wrote: »

Ye because they are male, and have on average inherent biological advantages over females. Sport is going down the road of attempting to make things as safe as possible, rugby recently having a spate of rule changes as an example
Allowing men to compete with women takes us drastically back in the other direction.

You'd have to wonder if someone who things men competing with women, particularly at competitive levels, has any interest in sport at all, or ever played one at any reasonable level!

My post was wrong, now corrected. It was not transgender male, just Male

My point is that men can kill each other, it is not solely a transgender issue

Leroy42

Leroy42 wrote: »

What constitutes being male or female though? Bone density, height, weight, strength? Genitals? Ability to reproduce?

Within the traditional male, ie those born as a boy, there are massive variations. And even within groups training makes a significant difference.

Just saying transgender is unfair is simplistic and open to a debate on what is actually right.

If we are arrived at the postmodern post - truth wonderment about what constitutes a male and a female, I regret to tell you I will not send my brain into that kind of blunt trauma battle with you. On you go.

Buddy Bubs

Buddy Bubs wrote: »

That's a very sexist post about men there. Not that I care, just calling out the inconsistencies of it all.
Calling masculinity into question to belittle them to try win an argument is weak.
To be honest it's the exact same as calling all women who agree with it big butch lesbians to counter their argument.

I’m a man. My friends are nearly all men; my Dad is a man; my brother is a man.

I’ve never once heard this topic come up in conversation. I’d presume there would be some nuanced views on it, which is why Jenner speaking up is interesting considering her profile and her past.

It’s the real ‘non playable characters’ who spend their lives being angry on the internet who seem to be whipped into hysteria about this. My own theory is they have such dull and unremarkable lives of their own that they just take their anger and frustration out on people who are different than them.

‘It’s political correctness gone mad, Jeremy!’

Moghead

Moghead wrote: »

What would you do with them though, would they be safe in a mens prison in the USA?

A separate facility is the logical and compassionate solution. I would think that is obvious.

ILoveYourVibes

Hhhhh wrote: »

But transwoman are already competing in women's sports to the detriment of natal women, so the situations aren't extreme.

Its not common ...therefore its rare ...

sydthebeat

Leroy42 wrote: »

Wasn't there a male mma fighter than killed another male? And boxing?

Should sports only be played between perfectly matched individuals?

Seems unfair that other sprinters had to race against Bolt when clearly he was faster than them.

Is it fair that taller basketball players are clearly at an advantage? Should we do something about that?

Its perfectly reasonable to have safety concerns, but there are weight classes and levels to deal with that already.

The reality is none of the above are issues, until transgender is involved and then suddenly people are close concerned about fairness.

What an incredibly weird post!!!

Are you ok with men fighting women in combat sports???

Guy:Incognito

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Yadda Yadda Yadda. Nothing to do with what I wrote. You can refuse to accept/acknowledge Transpeople as natural, without being anti-Trans, and comparing Trans issues with the problems with homosexuality in society, is a false equivalence. You're simply spouting the opposite side of the propaganda you claim to dislike.



.

Its not a false equivalence , its literally the same nonsense being dragged up by the same groups just transferred to a different minority. Its what they do. Always keeping a new bogeyman thats coming to attack your way of life.

A tiny minority of people whos lives will never impact most peoples yet some many get riled up at the though that these people get full rights or are looked on as "normal" section of society.

Its good that people have so few issues in their lives that they need to get so annoyed about trans people.......

Leroy42

[Deleted User] wrote: »

If we are arrived at the postmodern post - truth wonderment about what constitutes a male and a female, I regret to tell you I will not send my brain into that kind of blunt trauma battle with you. On you go.

Thats fine, but then don't pretend you have any notion on this topic as you clearly can't face dealing with the complexity.

Far easier to simply say you think something is right or wrong than actually think about it I suppose

ILoveYourVibes

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Pointing out extreme cases or issues in life where trans people present us with a challenge and questions is being used as an excuse to dismiss and abuse or exclude them entirely ..and its certainly being used to talk about them in a childish and less than nuance way.

I don't hear lets find a solution to this challenge. I hear ...look lets laugh at trans people

Having said that there are many physiological differences between bio women and trans women that a lot of people ..the heart structure and the way it behaves ...bones ..bone density ...

I was thinking though we might take a look at the special Olympics and see how they do things. You often get people who are VERY physically different competing against each other. It would be interesting to see how they manage to arrange that safely.

Ok so there is a problem ...its unfair ....so how do we fix it? While keeping it fair for bio women too?

Who said anything about laughing at Trans people? As for finding a solution, we've gone down this road before, and advocates of trans issues found the proposed solutions to be unacceptable.

Once more, you are trying to suggest that those who don't conform and agree with the trans advocates are being unreasonable. People who become Trans should have every right and benefit that they want, and anything less than that, is unreasonable.

We fix it by recognising that Trans people fit within a category all of their own, separate to either biological males or biological females. They've chosen to be different.

Leroy42

[Deleted User] wrote: »

A separate facility is the logical and compassionate solution. I would think that is obvious.

But more violent inmates are separated from other inmates even though they are the same gender!

Hmm, its almost if a simple divide doesn't solve all the problems

Leroy42

Leroy42 wrote: »

My post was wrong, now corrected. It was not transgender male, just Male

My point is that men can kill each other, it is not solely a transgender issue

No but sports organizations are attempting to make sports safer. Allowing men to compete against women, particularly in contact sports, is a reversal of this.

Leroy42

Leroy42 wrote: »

What constitutes being male or female though? Bone density, height, weight, strength? Genitals? Ability to reproduce?

Within the traditional male, ie those born as a boy, there are massive variations. And even within groups training makes a significant difference.

Just saying transgender is unfair is simplistic and open to a debate on what is actually right.

Consult a biology book. You aren't far away already though.

ILoveYourVibes

sydthebeat wrote: »

What an incredibly weird post!!!

Are you ok with men fighting women in combat sports???

I am not.

Nor am i ok with men hitting women in general. And a woman hitting a man is different.

Trans women depending on the individual could pose an issue or a danger in specialized sports to bio women.

So instead of just throwing the problem in trans women's faces why don't we come up with a solution?

I mean if you asked me would i be ok with a man fighting a woman with his legs tied together and one hand tied behind his back ..i might say yes.

Leroy42

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Who said anything about laughing at Trans people? As for finding a solution, we've gone down this road before, and advocates of trans issues found the proposed solutions to be unacceptable.

Once more, you are trying to suggest that those who don't conform and agree with the trans advocates are being unreasonable. People who become Trans should have every right and benefit that they want, and anything less than that, is unreasonable.

We fix it by recognising that Trans people fit within a category all of their own, separate to either biological males or biological females. They've chosen to be different.

They haven't chosen to be anything. But even if they did, should people be excluded because they are different?

Should 7foot tall men be excluded from basketball because they are different? No, of course no one would even dream of that.

But its fine to draw imaginary lines for trans?

Leroy42

Leroy42 wrote: »

Thats fine, but then don't pretend you have any notion on this topic as you clearly can't face dealing with the complexity.

Far easier to simply say you think something is right or wrong than actually think about it I suppose

Oh boy. Wrong person to accuse of not thinking about it.
But I just will no longer engage with people who have to stroke their beard hair while staring into space and wondering bewilderedly if there really ARE any differences between male and female...

Leroy42

Leroy42 wrote: »

But more violent inmates are separated from other inmates even though they are the same gender!

Hmm, its almost if a simple divide doesn't solve all the problems

Put them in with the ladies so. Hard to know what constitutes the difference, as you say yourself.

Leroy42

Hhhhh wrote: »

Consult a biology book. You aren't far away already though.

Biology books are based on our traditional understandings. Mainly based on sex. But we now have the knowledge and ability to adapt from that.

So we need to update our thinking.

What to do think is the defining nature of male and female?

ILoveYourVibes

Deleted User wrote: »

Who said anything about laughing at Trans people?.

There have been plenty of jokes in this thread.

As for finding a solution, we've gone down this road before, and advocates of trans issues found the proposed solutions to be unacceptable.

We really haven't and it would be impossible to have done i don't remember many trans people historically in sport its a modern thing. And the reason there isn't a huge push is because statistically speaking trans people don't count for much of the population.

Once more, you are trying to suggest that those who don't conform and agree with the trans advocates are being unreasonable. People who become Trans should have every right and benefit that they want, and anything less than that, is unreasonable.

I am suggesting they are in bad faith.

They don't care about the well being of women in sport ...because half the people who make these arguments think adverts on tv against domestic violence are anti-man. And the same people who think a woman hitting a transwoman isn't the same as a transwoman hitting a woman...somehow think a woman hitting a man is the same as a man hitting a woman.

Leroy42

Hhhhh wrote: »

No but sports organizations are attempting to make sports safer. Allowing men to compete against women, particularly in contact sports, is a reversal of this.

And those safety regulations should operate regardless. Michealla Tyson won't be getting in the ring with Katie Taylor no matter what. Doesn't matter how Tyson identified , there are criteria already in place.

ILoveYourVibes

Leroy42 wrote: »

Biology books are based on our traditional understandings. Mainly based on sex. But we now have the knowledge and ability to adapt from that.

So we need to update our thinking.

What to do think is the defining nature of male and female?

I think you need to walk away from that.

You won't like the answers. Its not useful anyway.

For some women having kids having periods ..is a fundamental part of being a woman.

For some trans men or people ..having a period is obv not a fundamental part of being a woman.

trans people know their gender ..but many people don't have to update what they think about their own gender. They just have to be tolerant and sincere.