Caitlyn Jenner's statement on trans girls in girls' sports (MOD NOTE IN OP)

ILoveYourVibes

Leroy42 wrote: »

We are talking about gender.

To be honest. We aren't. Or we shouldn't be.

That is what some want this conversation to be about. A polemic for a wider discussion on all things gender.

This is about sport that is all.

Whatever happens in sport it doesn't make trans people less valid. But it would be nice and evolved to try and include them in sport. But I don't see why we have to talk about every gender issue going to be able to do that.

Annasopra

[Deleted User] wrote: »

There is a whole spectrum of trans people. Some have gender dysphoria. Some do not. Some are homosexual. Some are heterosexual. Some experience gender expression as a sexual enjoyment. Some do not. Some are constantly trans, some are fluid. Some choose trans expression. Some detransition. The idea that all transgender people are simply born trans is uneducated.

The idea that trans people choose to be trans is complete and utter nonsense.

Leroy42

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Two wonderful female athletes competing in cycling. Unfortunately for them these days their fate is decided before the race starts in the interest of so-called 'equality' which is a total oxymoron of what actually happens.

Funny thing is put Rachel McKinnon, pictured victorious, in a males race and he/she would not be within an arses roar of ever winning anything.

It's wrong, unfair and a distortion of what sport is suppose to be.

So what is the deciding factor? Just genitals at birth?

What about female weightlifters. They can bench press way more than many men? So it's not strength. Speed maybe, endurance.

Should my son have to play with boys his age who are clearly more physically developed?

It isn't an issue of whether there should be a division, its what that criteria is.

Guy:Incognito

Deleted User wrote: »

Ohhh guarantees. Lovely. here's mine.

I guarantee that when it is shown that Transgender procedures cause serious long-term damage (physically, and psychologically), to both adults and teenagers, along with a range of damaging issues for society in general, you won't admit that you were mistaken, and will simply move on to another crusade to champion.

Again, the exact same stuff has been said for generations at least about lots of groups. Equal rights for black people, homosexuality being legalised etc.

ILoveYourVibes

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

That is possibly true. I can't say ...i really don't know enough about transpeople.

Well then, find out. I have. And a lot of my understanding is directly from long standing, happy and regular communication and debate with the very people you have accused me publicly of hating.

Snake Plisken

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Two wonderful female athletes competing in cycling. Unfortunately for them these days their fate is decided before the race starts in the interest of so-called 'equality' which is a total oxymoron of what actually happens.

Funny thing is put Rachel McKinnon, pictured victorious, in a males race and he/she would not be within an arses roar of ever winning anything.

It's wrong, unfair and a distortion of what sport is suppose to be.

Exactly let them be trans but they don't get to compete in Women's sports! Let them compete in a trans catagory!

ILoveYourVibes

Leroy42 wrote: »

So what is the deciding factor? Just genitals at birth?

.

Well i will tell you one thing. Its definitely not what sport you can take part in.

ILoveYourVibes

isha wrote: »

Well then, find out. I have. And a lot of my understanding is directly from long standing, happy and regular communication and debate with the very people you have accused me publicly of hating.

I highly doubt that.

and..
Who is being self righteous now?;)

Guy:Incognito

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

You think theres only been trans people for a few years, dont you?

Hardly. I've been going to gay bars and events for close to 30 years. I'm also aware of the history of it all..

I'm also aware of how "fashionable" it's become in the last few decades, and how much the lines have blurred as to what Transgendered used to mean, and the wide range it covers today.

Guy:Incognito

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Again, the exact same stuff has been said for generations at least about lots of groups. Equal rights for black people, homosexuality being legalised etc.

Ahh no.. oh sure, there is some crossover by various groups... but there's a lot that's very different.

Guy:Incognito

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm also aware of how "fashionable" it's become in the last few decades, and how much the lines have blurred as to what Transgendered used to mean, and the wide range it covers today.

Literally every thing you say about trans people was used about gay people.

Akrasia

Can we all agree 2 things now? First, that sports need to o be segregated by biological sex, not sociological gender, and second, that trans gender people are not a threat to society and should be allowed to get on with their lives in peace?

Annasopra

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Hardly. I've been going to gay bars and events for close to 30 years. I'm also aware of the history of it all..

I'm also aware of how "fashionable" it's become in the last few decades, and how much the lines have blurred as to what Transgendered used to mean, and the wide range it covers today.

You're not that educated about it if you are still using transgendered as a term.

Kermit.de.frog

Leroy42 wrote: »

So what is the deciding factor? Just genitals at birth?

What about female weightlifters. They can bench press way more than many men? So it's not strength. Speed maybe, endurance.

Should my son have to play with boys his age who are clearly more physically developed?

It isn't an issue of whether there should be a division, its what that criteria is.

It should not be allowed in any sport.

They should have their own bracket/category in which they compete and that should be that.

Then you have your level playing field.

Faugheen

Ah the usual mental gymnastics.

People call out the vile **** about trans people in this thread, then others respond in completely bad faith ‘so you think they should compete in women’s sport?’ etc completely pretending that it’s what people are calling out.

Usual angry men with nothing better to do either. Get a life, folks.

Guy:Incognito

Deleted User wrote: »

Ahh no.. oh sure, there is some crossover by various groups... but there's a lot that's very different.

Yeah, the difference is there are a lot more black and/or gay people in society so if there were to be big (negative) societal change from accepting them as equal there was a much bigger chance of it happening with those groups.

Trans people are not coming for your way of life, you can relax.

Leroy42

Snake Plisken wrote: »

Exactly let them be trans but they don't get to compete in Women's sports! Let them compete in a trans catagory!

Why? Being trans doesn’t give superpowers.

Michael Johnson Bolt, Jordan, Federer, Woods. There are plenty of examples of sports being dominated by individuals obviously blessed with special talents and the perfect physical attributes.

Should they have been excluded since they clearly have an inherent advantage?

What is the deciding factor?

Guy:Incognito

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Literally every thing you say about trans people was used about gay people.

haha.. no. It wasn't. What have I said about Trans people?

That the procedures involved were damaging physically/mentally. What procedures did gay people undergo?

That Transpeople chose to be trans. Ok. You got me there. And.. what else? What have I said that is so hateful and offensive?

Guy:Incognito

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

It should not be allowed in any sport.

They should have their own bracket/category in which they compete and that should be that.

Then you have your level playing field.

Presumably this extends to banning all women from any mens sports?

ILoveYourVibes

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

It should not be allowed in any sport.

They should have their own bracket/category in which they compete and that should be that.

Then you have your level playing field.

That is one option.

Annasopra

Annasopra wrote: »

The idea that trans people choose to be trans is complete and utter nonsense.

It is not. Go to Stonewalls site. Look for the definition of transgender. It includes cross dressing as being transgender. So does a recent law passed by the Scottish govt re hate crimes. It clearly defines transgenderism as including cross dressing.
This is a chosen activity by heterosexual men. It is not something innate that one is born with. At a maximum about 0.5% of people are transgender under the usual u derstanding. 3 to 10% of men enjoy cross dressing. Going by Stonewalls definition and recent legislation passed in Scotland a significant majority of what is considered in modern times to be transgender expression is a chosen activity.
As I said there are differences.

Leroy42

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

It should not be allowed in any sport.

They should have their own bracket/category in which they compete and that should be that.

Then you have your level playing field.

Agree. And they do (its age based atm which is a poor criteria but the most straightforward)

The issue is not the division, but the criteria. So far its been a blanket "keep them out" rather than looking at what constitutes and unfair advantage.

Faugheen

Leroy42 wrote: »

Why? Being trans doesn’t give superpowers.

Michael Johnson Bolt, Jordan, Federer, Woods. There are plenty of examples of sports being dominated by individuals obviously blessed with special talents and the perfect physical attributes.

Should they have been excluded since they clearly have an inherent advantage?

What is the deciding factor?

Missed the most obvious one in Michael Phelps who actually had freakishly perfect physical advantages. Tall frame, larger wingspan, webbed feet, lack of lactic acid. Complete physical freak.

ILoveYourVibes

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Presumably this extends to banning all women from any mens sports?

that is only equestrian and sailing.

jackboy

Leroy42 wrote: »

Why? Being trans doesn’t give superpowers.

Michael Johnson Bolt, Jordan, Federer, Woods. There are plenty of examples of sports being dominated by individuals obviously blessed with special talents and the perfect physical attributes.

Should they have been excluded since they clearly have an inherent advantage?

What is the deciding factor?

In these sports there are different grades so yes they are excluded from competing against most of the lesser athletes.

Guy:Incognito

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Trans people are not coming for your way of life, you can relax.

More of this nonsense. Another attempt to discredit. Did I say they were?

TomTomTim

Faugheen wrote: »

Ah the usual mental gymnastics.

People call out the vile **** about trans people in this thread, then others respond in completely bad faith ‘so you think they should compete in women’s sport?’ etc completely pretending that it’s what people are calling out.

Usual angry men with nothing better to do either. Get a life, folks.

Gives out about discrimination against one group, whilst discriminating another. This is why no ones takes you people seriously. It's funny too, considering the last thread on this topic had many female posters involved.

Brian?

WhomadeGod wrote: »

Let's see the cancel culture identity politics brigade try to cancel the most famous transgender on the pnaet from the most famous family on the planet.

I look forward to it.

I have some shocking new for you. Neither cancel culture nor the identity politics brigade exist.

They're a bogeyman sold to the simpleminded who fear change

ILoveYourVibes

isha wrote: »

It includes cross dressing as being transgender. .

This is a chosen activity by heterosexual men.

You are getting really confused.

Either they are heteorsexual men or they are trans ..they can't be both.

EddieN75

Brian? wrote: »

I have some shocking new for you. Neither cancel culture nor the identity politics brigade exist.

They're a bogeyman sold to the simpleminded who fear change

Change as in being cancelled?

Cancel culture is alive and well my friend. It's a virus

Guy:Incognito

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

that is only equestrian and sailing.

Darts has a high profile woman in it at the minute.

Women arent banned from mens football. If a woman was good enough to play in the PL , a team could sign her.

Guy:Incognito

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Well, the bit in the post youre quoting for a start............

I give up. Like talking to a wall.

ILoveYourVibes

TomTomTim wrote: »

Gives out about discrimination against one group, whilst discriminating another. This is why no ones takes you people seriously. It's funny too, considering the last thread on this topic had many female posters involved.

This is exactly what YOU are doing ...that is if you are truly defending travellers.

Louis Friend

This trans agenda, like every example of wokeism, is pushing things too far.

At one extreme, you have trans people being put into concentration camps and executed or experimented on. Then at the other you have trans people denying women gold medals in the Olympics.

Neither approach is right. Society should be aiming for somewhere in between.

ILoveYourVibes

Deleted User wrote: »

I give up. Like talking to a wall.

A stonewall?? ! I HAD TO!:P

Guy:Incognito

Deleted User wrote: »

More of this nonsense. Another attempt to discredit. Did I say they were?

Yeah, sorry, its all of society you think it will damage..........

Deleted User wrote: »

. along with a range of damaging issues for society in general

ILoveYourVibes

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Its not common ...therefore its rare ...

But not extreme, like you suggested.

PokeHerKing

Deleted User wrote: »

Hardly. I've been going to gay bars and events for close to 30 years. I'm also aware of the history of it all..

I'm also aware of how "fashionable" it's become in the last few decades, and how much the lines have blurred as to what Transgendered used to mean, and the wide range it covers today.

Its an odd one given you're gay that you seem to be espousing the same kind of rhetoric that would be used by homohobic people. I can't imagine any lad is dressing up as a woman and calling himself Susan for the craic or because its fashionable. No more than id believe any lad would be having sex with another lad because "it's just a phase".

I guess what it shows us is anyone can be prejudiced even those that have faced it. Its why I cringe when I hear black people claim they can't be racist because they're black :pac:

It's fairly open and shut no matter what nonsense the woke brigade will spout.

Males are athletically stronger overall and it would be unfair to allow someone who is a biological male to compete in female events.

Akrasia

Leroy42 wrote: »

Why? Being trans doesn’t give superpowers.

Michael Johnson Bolt, Jordan, Federer, Woods. There are plenty of examples of sports being dominated by individuals obviously blessed with special talents and the perfect physical attributes.

Should they have been excluded since they clearly have an inherent advantage?

What is the deciding factor?

The deciding factor is biological sex hormones and puberty

TomTomTim

Brian? wrote: »

I have some shocking new for you. Neither cancel culture nor the identity politics brigade exist.

They're a bogeyman sold to the simpleminded who fear change

This is beyond delusional. Identity politics is explicit, you can see it in nearly every social justice movement, you can see it in legalization. Trying to deny that it's real is like trying to deny that humans need air to breath.

ceadaoin.

Leroy42 wrote: »

Why? Being trans doesn’t give superpowers.

Michael Johnson Bolt, Jordan, Federer, Woods. There are plenty of examples of sports being dominated by individuals obviously blessed with special talents and the perfect physical attributes.

Should they have been excluded since they clearly have an inherent advantage?

What is the deciding factor?

They are males so therefore they should be excluded from women's sports. And they were. The deciding factor is that they are males and not females. And as a result, female athletes, tennis players, basketball players and golfers were able to thrive and compete on a level playing field. Job done. Why is this even a question?

Eoinbmw

Leroy42 wrote: »

Wasn't there a male mma fighter than killed another male? And boxing?

Should sports only be played between perfectly matched individuals?

Seems unfair that other sprinters had to race against Bolt when clearly he was faster than them.

Is it fair that taller basketball players are clearly at an advantage? Should we do something about that?

Its perfectly reasonable to have safety concerns, but there are weight classes and levels to deal with that already.

The reality is none of the above are issues, until transgender is involved and then suddenly people are close concerned about fairness.

Well lets allow steroids and all other performance enhancing drugs in professional sport so!
Give the Genetically born ladies some chance of a fair playing field!

ILoveYourVibes

Louis Friend wrote: »

This trans agenda, like every example of wokeism, is pushing things too far.

At one extreme, you have trans people being put into concentration camps and executed or experimented on. Then at the other you have trans people denying women gold medals in the Olympics.

Neither approach is right. Society should be aiming for somewhere in between.

I feel uneasy about you suggestion that the polar opposite extreme of trans people in concentration camps is trans people getting medals.

Its not ...the opposite extreme might be cis gendered people in concentration camps.Which i am just not down for as a cis gendered girlie.

Trans people getting medals ..seems rather in between to me in comparison.

If you want to draw a line of polarity in between two points with ONE point so so far in one direction ...you are not going to end up in the middle.

Quite plainly ..the discomfort we might feel by allowing trans people SAFELY to compete in sport ....is not to be compared with the pain and discomfort people in concentration camps might feel.

These things you suggest are either end of the extreme are really not. One is not that extreme and one is.

Celticfire

Leroy42 wrote: »

Should my son have to play with boys his age who are clearly more physically developed?

It isn't an issue of whether there should be a division, its what that criteria is.

What criteria did you use to assign the descriptor "Son" over "Daughter".

ILoveYourVibes

Eoinbmw wrote: »

Well lets allow steroids and all other performance enhancing drugs in professional sport so!
Give the Genetically born ladies some chance of a fair playing field!

That already happens tbh. We are naive if we think otherwise. But that is besides the point.

Faugheen

TomTomTim wrote: »

Gives out about discrimination against one group, whilst discriminating another. This is why no ones takes you people seriously. It's funny too, considering the last thread on this topic had many female posters involved.

Again, ‘this topic’ when I’m talking about the crap posted about trans people. ‘Not believing in it’ ‘he/she’ etc.

Sorry I offended your precious self when the above is written in front of you and is being written by bitter, angry men who are trying to whip up a frenzy.

If you can’t see that or you can’t acknowledge that then you’re out of your depth here.

ILoveYourVibes

Hhhhh wrote: »

But not extreme, like you suggested.

But other instances suggested in this thread like criminals in prison ..is

Very few trans people are criminals. They are extreme cases.

Eoinbmw

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

That already happens tbh. We are naive if we think otherwise. But that is besides the point.

Of course it does but just throw testing out the window who needs rules!

ILoveYourVibes

ThewhiteJesus wrote: »

A trans girl Is not a girl and never will be I don’t see the issue of course they can’t compete in girl only sports but there is many unisex sports or they can compete in men’s dressed as women which could be funny

At least you are honest.