Caitlyn Jenner's statement on trans girls in girls' sports (MOD NOTE IN OP)

Annasopra

[Deleted User] wrote: »

We are deep into the doodoo alteady, so early in the thread. So tricky to tell those assigned female at birth from the clownfish...

Yeah exactly you cant even have a civil respectful duscussion that you have to compare trans women to clownfish. Says a lot.

Kermit.de.frog

Two wonderful female athletes competing in cycling. Unfortunately for them these days their fate is decided before the race starts in the interest of so-called 'equality' which is a total oxymoron of what actually happens.

Funny thing is put Rachel McKinnon, pictured victorious, in a males race and he/she would not be within an arses roar of ever winning anything.

It's wrong, unfair and a distortion of what sport is suppose to be.

Annasopra

Annasopra wrote: »

People dont "become" trans and havent "chosen" to be trans. Trans people are trans.

There is a whole spectrum of trans people. Some have gender dysphoria. Some do not. Some are homosexual. Some are heterosexual. Some experience gender expression as a sexual enjoyment. Some do not. Some are constantly trans, some are fluid. Some choose trans expression. Some detransition. The idea that all transgender people are simply born trans is uneducated.

ILoveYourVibes

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

It's wrong, unfair and a distortion of what sport is suppose to be.

Yes we are aware of the problem.

Now what is the solution that is fair to all?

Annasopra

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Actually, they have chosen. They might have chosen to have surgical procedures, or chose to take drug treatments to change their bodies. They chose to become a man or a woman (I'm not agreeing with the claim that they are). But the vast majority of trans people did make a choice. (True enough, some didn't. An extreme extreme minority of the whole.. and society doesn't need to conform for such a small number).

And we get more false equivalences.

No. Being trans is not a choice.

Guy:Incognito

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Conservative groups and people with vested interests making money off these issues (grifters is a good catch all for them)

Again, they need to always have a bogeyman. Take Ireland and 3 referendums. Divorce was going to bring down society, then marriage equality was and then abortion.

Grand. Such groups and their followers represent a seriously small group of people. Are you making the claim that anyone who disagrees with the Trans advocates or Trans issues is a member of these groups you describe above?

You dont think trans people suffer with insults, violence and social stigma?

As has been said many times, it's a nuanced topic. Just because Trans people experience such things, doesn't mean that it's the same as what homosexuals experienced.

It's a different situation. Hence a false equivalence. (And no, I'm not seeking to downplay their experiences)

BTW , the exact same stuff about being gay was being "shoved in peoples faces" only a few years ago and no shortage of it around the marriage equality referendum. Your whole post is back up of the trans fearmongering being the very same as it was about gay people previously.

Ahh yes, because homosexuality was a completely new phenomenon for society to see and understand...

You really do like laying accusations at posters, don't you?

I guarantee you that when trans people become an accepted part of society to the way gay people are there will be another group thrust up as the downfall of society. its as predictable as people falling for it.

Ohhh guarantees. Lovely. here's mine.

I guarantee that when it is shown that Transgender procedures cause serious long-term damage (physically, and psychologically), to both adults and teenagers, along with a range of damaging issues for society in general, you won't admit that you were mistaken, and will simply move on to another crusade to champion.

Leroy42

Hhhhh wrote: »

We are talking of sex. As it pertains to humans there are two. What have Seahorses got to do with it?

We are talking about gender. How it pertains to humans is evolving as our knowledge and understanding increases.

ILoveYourVibes

isha wrote: »

There is a whole spectrum of trans people. Some have gender dysphoria. Some do not. Some are homosexual. Some are heterosexual. Some experience gender expression as a sexual enjoyment. Some do not. Some are constantly trans, some are fluid. Some choose trans expression. Some detransition. The idea that all transgender people are simply born trans is uneducated.

That is possibly true. I can't say ...i really don't know enough about transpeople.

Guy:Incognito

Deleted User wrote: »

Ahh yes, because homosexuality was a completely new phenomenon for society to see and understand...
.

You think theres only been trans people for a few years, dont you?

Annasopra

Annasopra wrote: »

Yeah exactly you cant even have a civil respectful duscussion that you have to compare trans women to clownfish. Says a lot.

I have been a long time in this debate elsewhere. Clownfish is a well known trope or meme in the debate. It does not refer to male or female humans. I was not using it in that way but rather referencing the meme.
It refers to the argument put forward that because clownfish (or slugs or whatever) can change sex therefore humans can. It is intellectually a stupid argument to use for a sexually dimorphic species. I was using the word clownfish to refer in a summarising way to this tired old argument.

ILoveYourVibes

Leroy42 wrote: »

We are talking about gender.

To be honest. We aren't. Or we shouldn't be.

That is what some want this conversation to be about. A polemic for a wider discussion on all things gender.

This is about sport that is all.

Whatever happens in sport it doesn't make trans people less valid. But it would be nice and evolved to try and include them in sport. But I don't see why we have to talk about every gender issue going to be able to do that.

Annasopra

[Deleted User] wrote: »

There is a whole spectrum of trans people. Some have gender dysphoria. Some do not. Some are homosexual. Some are heterosexual. Some experience gender expression as a sexual enjoyment. Some do not. Some are constantly trans, some are fluid. Some choose trans expression. Some detransition. The idea that all transgender people are simply born trans is uneducated.

The idea that trans people choose to be trans is complete and utter nonsense.

Leroy42

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Two wonderful female athletes competing in cycling. Unfortunately for them these days their fate is decided before the race starts in the interest of so-called 'equality' which is a total oxymoron of what actually happens.

Funny thing is put Rachel McKinnon, pictured victorious, in a males race and he/she would not be within an arses roar of ever winning anything.

It's wrong, unfair and a distortion of what sport is suppose to be.

So what is the deciding factor? Just genitals at birth?

What about female weightlifters. They can bench press way more than many men? So it's not strength. Speed maybe, endurance.

Should my son have to play with boys his age who are clearly more physically developed?

It isn't an issue of whether there should be a division, its what that criteria is.

Guy:Incognito

Deleted User wrote: »

Ohhh guarantees. Lovely. here's mine.

I guarantee that when it is shown that Transgender procedures cause serious long-term damage (physically, and psychologically), to both adults and teenagers, along with a range of damaging issues for society in general, you won't admit that you were mistaken, and will simply move on to another crusade to champion.

Again, the exact same stuff has been said for generations at least about lots of groups. Equal rights for black people, homosexuality being legalised etc.

ILoveYourVibes

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

That is possibly true. I can't say ...i really don't know enough about transpeople.

Well then, find out. I have. And a lot of my understanding is directly from long standing, happy and regular communication and debate with the very people you have accused me publicly of hating.

Snake Plisken

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Two wonderful female athletes competing in cycling. Unfortunately for them these days their fate is decided before the race starts in the interest of so-called 'equality' which is a total oxymoron of what actually happens.

Funny thing is put Rachel McKinnon, pictured victorious, in a males race and he/she would not be within an arses roar of ever winning anything.

It's wrong, unfair and a distortion of what sport is suppose to be.

Exactly let them be trans but they don't get to compete in Women's sports! Let them compete in a trans catagory!

ILoveYourVibes

Leroy42 wrote: »

So what is the deciding factor? Just genitals at birth?

.

Well i will tell you one thing. Its definitely not what sport you can take part in.

ILoveYourVibes

isha wrote: »

Well then, find out. I have. And a lot of my understanding is directly from long standing, happy and regular communication and debate with the very people you have accused me publicly of hating.

I highly doubt that.

and..
Who is being self righteous now?;)

Guy:Incognito

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

You think theres only been trans people for a few years, dont you?

Hardly. I've been going to gay bars and events for close to 30 years. I'm also aware of the history of it all..

I'm also aware of how "fashionable" it's become in the last few decades, and how much the lines have blurred as to what Transgendered used to mean, and the wide range it covers today.

Guy:Incognito

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Again, the exact same stuff has been said for generations at least about lots of groups. Equal rights for black people, homosexuality being legalised etc.

Ahh no.. oh sure, there is some crossover by various groups... but there's a lot that's very different.

Guy:Incognito

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm also aware of how "fashionable" it's become in the last few decades, and how much the lines have blurred as to what Transgendered used to mean, and the wide range it covers today.

Literally every thing you say about trans people was used about gay people.

Akrasia

Can we all agree 2 things now? First, that sports need to o be segregated by biological sex, not sociological gender, and second, that trans gender people are not a threat to society and should be allowed to get on with their lives in peace?

Annasopra

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Hardly. I've been going to gay bars and events for close to 30 years. I'm also aware of the history of it all..

I'm also aware of how "fashionable" it's become in the last few decades, and how much the lines have blurred as to what Transgendered used to mean, and the wide range it covers today.

You're not that educated about it if you are still using transgendered as a term.

Kermit.de.frog

Leroy42 wrote: »

So what is the deciding factor? Just genitals at birth?

What about female weightlifters. They can bench press way more than many men? So it's not strength. Speed maybe, endurance.

Should my son have to play with boys his age who are clearly more physically developed?

It isn't an issue of whether there should be a division, its what that criteria is.

It should not be allowed in any sport.

They should have their own bracket/category in which they compete and that should be that.

Then you have your level playing field.

Faugheen

Ah the usual mental gymnastics.

People call out the vile **** about trans people in this thread, then others respond in completely bad faith ‘so you think they should compete in women’s sport?’ etc completely pretending that it’s what people are calling out.

Usual angry men with nothing better to do either. Get a life, folks.

Guy:Incognito

Deleted User wrote: »

Ahh no.. oh sure, there is some crossover by various groups... but there's a lot that's very different.

Yeah, the difference is there are a lot more black and/or gay people in society so if there were to be big (negative) societal change from accepting them as equal there was a much bigger chance of it happening with those groups.

Trans people are not coming for your way of life, you can relax.

Leroy42

Snake Plisken wrote: »

Exactly let them be trans but they don't get to compete in Women's sports! Let them compete in a trans catagory!

Why? Being trans doesn’t give superpowers.

Michael Johnson Bolt, Jordan, Federer, Woods. There are plenty of examples of sports being dominated by individuals obviously blessed with special talents and the perfect physical attributes.

Should they have been excluded since they clearly have an inherent advantage?

What is the deciding factor?

Guy:Incognito

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Literally every thing you say about trans people was used about gay people.

haha.. no. It wasn't. What have I said about Trans people?

That the procedures involved were damaging physically/mentally. What procedures did gay people undergo?

That Transpeople chose to be trans. Ok. You got me there. And.. what else? What have I said that is so hateful and offensive?

Guy:Incognito

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

It should not be allowed in any sport.

They should have their own bracket/category in which they compete and that should be that.

Then you have your level playing field.

Presumably this extends to banning all women from any mens sports?

ILoveYourVibes

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

It should not be allowed in any sport.

They should have their own bracket/category in which they compete and that should be that.

Then you have your level playing field.

That is one option.