Caitlyn Jenner's statement on trans girls in girls' sports (MOD NOTE IN OP)

robinph

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Darts has a high profile woman in it at the minute.

Women arent banned from mens football. If a woman was good enough to play in the PL , a team could sign her.

There isn't much reason in any sport to ban women competing in the men's events if they are at the similar standards, some sports the women will outperform the men anyway. The other way round though it is necessary to protect women's sports from men participating or women don't get a fair competition.

ILoveYourVibes

Eoinbmw wrote: »

Of course it does but just throw testing out the window who needs rules!

IMO like 80% of pro athletes have dabbled in doping. And the other 20% have seriously considered it.

Testing is more for show. And sporting organizations probably know it.

Leroy42

ThewhiteJesus wrote: »

A trans girl Is not a girl and never will be I don’t see the issue of course they can’t compete in girl only sports but there is many unisex sports or they can compete in men’s dressed as women which could be funny

So a girl is based on genitalia at birth for you? Thats it? Should they be allowed to compete in male sports?

Annasopra

Annasopra wrote: »

Yeah no sorry you were clearly mocking transwomen there comparing them to clownfish

No. I said assigned female at birth and clownfish in a sardonic line.
These are both well known tropes in this debate. It is straining literalness to its incoherent conclusion to read otherwise
Assigned female at birth is a stupid phrase that has come into use. I was mocking that phrase, and not refering to females. I would never call a new born girl child assigned female at birth. It is beyond stupid. Nor would I ever call a trans woman a clownfish. I was referencing the clownfish argument.

Leroy42

Leroy42 wrote: »

And those safety regulations should operate regardless. Michealla Tyson won't be getting in the ring with Katie Taylor no matter what. Doesn't matter how Tyson identified , there are criteria already in place.

A man that is the same weight as a women will still be far stronger, and as such cause more damage. If it is about not excluding, why have weight classes in the first place? Why not have Michella Tyson fight Katie Taylor?

Would having Mannie Pacquia step in to the ring with Katie be a fair and safe fight ('she' would only be 1 inch taller, and 4-5kg heavier.. But far far stronger')?

TomTomTim

Faugheen wrote: »

Again, ‘this topic’ when I’m talking about the crap posted about trans people. ‘Not believing in it’ ‘he/she’ etc.

Sorry I offended your precious self when the above is written in front of you and is being written by bitter, angry men who are trying to whip up a frenzy.

If you can’t see that or you can’t acknowledge that then you’re out of your depth here.

I'm not offended, I'm simply pointing to the fact that you're a hypocrite. There's many feminist women who have issues with the trans movement too, yet you choose to conveniently blame men solely. You're the only one ignoring reality here.

EddieN75

robinph wrote: »

There isn't much reason in any sport to ban women competing in the men's events if they are at the similar standards, some sports the women will outperform the men anyway. The other way round though it is necessary to protect women's sports from men participating or women don't get a fair competition.

That's an interesting point. Which sports do women outperform men?

Eoinbmw

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

IMO like 80% of pro athletes have dabbled in doping. And the other 20% have seriously considered it.

Testing is more for show. And sporting organizations probably know it.

If you really want to gain an advantage just identify as a woman its happening already, its frightening and dangerous an will ruin Female sports!

Leroy42

Northernlily wrote: »

It's fairly open and shut no matter what nonsense the woke brigade will spout.

Males are athletically stronger overall and it would be unfair to allow someone who is a biological male to compete in female events.

All men are stronger than all women? What about that some men are stronger than other men, should they be excluded?

Guy:Incognito

robinph wrote: »

There isn't much reason in any sport to ban women competing in the men's events if they are at the similar standards, some sports the women will outperform the men anyway. The other way round though it is necessary to protect women's sports from men participating or women don't get a fair competition.

Its more just an illustration of attitudes. The discussion is mostly around trans women and how apparently its all just men transitioning to women so they can prey on other women.

These things seem to attract a certain type of mindset, much like how men being gay is dirty but lesbians form such a large section of porn and its "hot".

suicide_circus

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

In what way?
Do you not affirm a womans identity by calling them Ms/Mrs? Or a mans by calling them Mr? do you use he or she to refer to men and women , gay or straight?

How is using the correct pronouns for a trans person any different?

It requires me to lie

Leroy42

Hhhhh wrote: »

A man that is the same weight as a women will still be far stronger, and as such cause more damage. If it is about not excluding, why have weight classes in the first place? Why not have Michella Tyson fight Katie Taylor?

Would having Mannie Pacquia step in to the ring with Katie be a fair and safe fight ('she' would only be 1 inch taller, and 4-5kg heavier.. But far far stronger')?

So the deciding factor is strength then in boxing? Some women can be massively stronger than other women in the same weight class. Are you saying we should change that?

Leroy42

suicide_circus wrote: »

It requires me to lie

How? If I ask you to call me David are you lying to do so? (My name is not David). Some people go by their nicknames, others by a stage name. Do you refuse to use them?

BTW you are lying on this forum as clearly your real name is bot suicide_circus. It must be awful for you!

ILoveYourVibes

EddieN75 wrote: »

That's an interesting point. Which sports do women outperform men?

Rythmic gymnastics. Several other types of gymnastics.

Yoga

Sychcrynized swimming

Ultra endurance events.

Equestrian sports.

Shooting.

In the US the women's soccer team is better than the men's :P

ILoveYourVibes

isha wrote: »

No. I am actually sure you are smarter than this.

Do you want me to quote you again?

PokeHerKing

PokeHerKing wrote: »

Its an odd one given you're gay that you seem to be espousing the same kind of rhetoric that would be used by homohobic people.

Such as? Come on, be specific. What have I said that was full of hate or disgust?

I can't imagine any lad is dressing up as a woman and calling himself Susan for the craic or because its fashionable. No more than id believe any lad would be having sex with another lad because "it's just a phase".

Can you imagine someone claiming they're a different gender, but not changing their appearance in any way?

I guess what it shows us is anyone can be prejudiced even those that have faced it. Its why I cringe when I hear black people claim they can't be racist because they're black :pac:

Everyone is prejudiced in some manner. Although, you're suggesting more than that.

This is more of the nonsense that if I don't agree completely with the overall issues associated with Trans people, then, I must feel hate/fear/disgust about them. Phobic.

To put it simply, I haven't fully decided what I believe on the whole topic, because it's still shifting and changing over time. I don't have any issue with adults undergoing procedures to change their gender. I don't have an issue with anyone believing that they're another gender. I don't believe that people should be forced to recognise and accept transgendered people.. that acceptance should be a personal choice. As should the use of pronouns for trans people... if I want to continue using a pronoun for a man, who obviously isn't a woman, then I should be able to do so.

Oh.. and the effects on society and the individual regarding transgendered procedures are still an unknown. There's a lot of research to show the downsides... but it's still a relatively new issue for society as a whole. And while advocates claim this is the same as homosexuality for society, it isn't.

There's nothing homophobic or transphobic there, unless you believe that refusal to conform is transphobic. And therein lies the problem. Many advocates of Trans issues, do believe that any refusal or hesitation to accept Transgendered people completely, is transphobic. I disagree.

ILoveYourVibes

TomTomTim wrote: »

I'm not offended, I'm simply pointing to the fact that you're a hypocrite. There's many feminist women who have issues with the trans movement too, yet you choose to conveniently blame men solely. You're the only one ignoring reality here.

Its strange that so many men would take an interest though and side with these feminists.

Usually the same men deride said feminists at every turn.

Would you yourself call yourself a feminist as a man?

I would wonder how many men in this thread would call themselves feminists?

Using feminists to justify your position seems unfair if you never support them in other issues.

ceadaoin.

EddieN75 wrote: »

That's an interesting point. Which sports do women outperform men?

It's funny how there is one sport where women actually do out compete men...ski jumping. Its only fairly recently that they've been allowed to compete and even then, they aren't allowed the same standards as men. Maybe they could just id their way in? No, it never works that way for females. Weird. I mean, its almost like women aren't allowed to succeed without men dictating the rules/forcing their way in.

https://apnews.com/article/c1ae214cbe69443a94472d71875d8e17

Akrasia

Leroy42 wrote: »

So a girl is based on genitalia at birth for you? Thats it? Should they be allowed to compete in male sports?

Genitelia is not the only aspect of sexual dimorphism in Homo sapiens, if it was there would be no need to have segregated male/female sports.

berocca2016

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Such as? Come on, be specific. What have I said that was full of hate or disgust?



Can you imagine someone claiming they're a different gender, but not changing their appearance in any way?



Everyone is prejudiced in some manner. Although, you're suggesting more than that.

This is more of the nonsense that if I don't agree completely with the overall issues associated with Trans people, then, I must feel hate/fear/disgust about them. Phobic.

To put it simply, I haven't fully decided what I believe on the whole topic, because it's still shifting and changing over time. I don't have any issue with adults undergoing procedures to change their gender. I don't have an issue with anyone believing that they're another gender. I don't believe that people should be forced to recognise and accept transgendered people.. that acceptance should be a personal choice. As should the use of pronouns for trans people... if I want to continue using a pronoun for a man, who obviously isn't a woman, then I should be able to do so.

There's nothing homophobic or transphobic there, unless you believe that refusal to conform is transphobic. And therein lies the problem. Many advocates of Trans issues, do believe that any refusal or hesitation to accept Transgendered people completely, is transphobic. I disagree.

So if the world is round, its your right to say it is flat because of your refusal to conform.

ILoveYourVibes

isha wrote: »

No. I am actually sure you are smarter than this.

BTW you better believe i am smarter than even this. Smart as a whip.

ILoveYourVibes

berocca2016 wrote: »

So if the world is round, its your right to say it is flat because of your refusal to conform.

Spurious comparison. That world that earth you live on...is not your own self. You are not defining your own self ..you are defining the planet everyone else lives on ..an EXTERNAL reality not an internal reality.

We can see the world. We can't see inside other people's minds only they can do that and we have to rely on the information they tell us about their experiences. Whereas we can see the world for ourselves.

I don't have to share someone's life with them. I have to share the planet with people.

Flat earthers often use their believe to have other views such as denying climate change.

suicide_circus

Leroy42 wrote: »

How? If I ask you to call me David are you lying to do so? (My name is not David). Some people go by their nicknames, others by a stage name. Do you refuse to use them?

BTW you are lying on this forum as clearly your real name is bot suicide_circus. It must be awful for you!

David is an arbitrary designation chosen by your parents. He or She is a descriptor.

ILoveYourVibes

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

How is this relevant?
:rolleyes:

Does everyone agree with that? Do transpeople agree with that?

Why not answer the question instead of instead posing your own? It's relevant as it shows there is an agreed definition re sex, and that suggesting there isn't is nonsense. So can you actually attempt an answer please?

If human remains are found, and what remains are just bones, and they get identified as a male between 30 and 40.. Are yiu suggesting it legitimate to state that they aren't male as there are' no agreed upon definitions'.

How would the police go about attempting to garner information about the find if the sex of the bones cannot be stated due to there being (according to you) no agreement of how to classify them in the first place?

EddieN75

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Rythmic gymnastics. Several other types of gymnastics.

Yoga

Sychcrynized swimming

Ultra endurance events.

Equestrian sports.

Shooting.

In the US the women's soccer team is better than the men's :P

I don't think yoga is a sport is it? Is there a world yoga championship?
Do you have the tables?

I would imagine men are better at gymnastics. Much stronger on the rings and vault etc. Much more powerful. Ie better

Equestrian sports. Nah I doubt it again. I would say men are better plus it's as much the horse.

Ultra endurance? Men no doubt are better. Across all athletic times men are quicker. Military training courses men are faster. All the data point to men being superior.

Shooting or synchronised swimming I don't know.

The women's football team were beaten by Dallas u15 boys team. If the men's and women's us football teams played the men's would beat them 25 nil easy.
Because the women's competition is dreadful it doesn't mean that the women's team are "better" than the men's.

You have synchronised swimming and shooting. Questionable too

berocca2016

berocca2016 wrote: »

So if the world is round, its your right to say it is flat because of your refusal to conform.

Actually, it would be the opposite way around since Trans are claiming something that goes against the previously accepted notions. That the world is round, but it should be flat because they say so.

PokeHerKing

Deleted User wrote: »

Such as? Come on, be specific. What have I said that was full of hate or disgust?



Can you imagine someone claiming they're a different gender, but not changing their appearance in any way?



Everyone is prejudiced in some manner. Although, you're suggesting more than that.

This is more of the nonsense that if I don't agree completely with the overall issues associated with Trans people, then, I must feel hate/fear/disgust about them. Phobic.

To put it simply, I haven't fully decided what I believe on the whole topic, because it's still shifting and changing over time. I don't have any issue with adults undergoing procedures to change their gender. I don't have an issue with anyone believing that they're another gender. I don't believe that people should be forced to recognise and accept transgendered people.. that acceptance should be a personal choice. As should the use of pronouns for trans people... if I want to continue using a pronoun for a man, who obviously isn't a woman, then I should be able to do so.

There's nothing homophobic or transphobic there, unless you believe that refusal to conform is transphobic. And therein lies the problem. Many advocates of Trans issues, do believe that any refusal or hesitation to accept Transgendered people completely, is transphobic. I disagree.

You claimed people are coming out as trans because its fashionable. Thats the same type of stuff they said about gay people like yourself, its like me not wanting you around my son incase he caught the gay off you.

Leroy42

Akrasia wrote: »

Genitelia is not the only aspect of sexual dimorphism in Homo sapiens, if it was there would be no need to have segregated male/female sports.

I think you will find that the split has more to do with the historic thinking that women were not suited to sport rather than anything deeper than that.

Even recently, boxing for women was frowned upon on the basis that women couldn't handle it.

It is changing now or course, but the reason for the split is mainly traditional. That doesn't mean it is inherently wrong (one can land at the right answer by the wrong calculations).

Previously, women were seen as very much second class citizens. Not able for sport, politics, work. Childcare and cooking they could handle. This crossed into sport as why would any watch the inferior sex play sport.

is_that_so

suicide_circus wrote: »

David is an arbitrary designation chosen by your parents. He or She is a descriptor.

Actually, in grammar they are considered substitute or reference words, used to avoid repetition of noun or noun phrases.

berocca2016

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Spurious comparison. That world that earth you live on...is not your own self. You are not defining your own self ..you are defining the planet everyone else lives on ..an EXTERNAL reality not an internal reality.

We can see the world. We can't see inside other people's minds only they can do that and we have to rely on the information they tell us about their experiences. Whereas we can see the world for ourselves.

I don't have to share someone's life with them. I have to share the planet with people.

Flat earthers often use their believe to have other views such as denying climate change.

But can you see the world as round?

Just because you don't see trans people as the sex they now are does not make it untrue.