Caitlyn Jenner's statement on trans girls in girls' sports (MOD NOTE IN OP)

Leroy42

Deleted User wrote: »

Actually, it would be the opposite way around since Trans are claiming something that goes against the previously accepted notions. That the world is round, but it should be flat because they say so.

No, they are saying its not round, its a ellipsoid.

But round is easier for people to understand and sure we always thought it was round so no point changing now.

ILoveYourVibes

EddieN75 wrote: »

I don't think yoga is a sport is it? Is there a world yoga championship?

Yes.

https://worldyogacup.org/

Well that was easy.

You are factually incorrect on all the others.

Annasopra

Eoinbmw wrote: »

If you really want to gain an advantage just identify as a woman its happening already, its frightening and dangerous an will ruin Female sports!

Have you examples of people only identifying as women to gain advantage in sports?

ceadaoin.

Leroy42 wrote: »

I think you will find that the split has more to do with the historic thinking that women were not suited to sport rather than anything deeper than that.

Even recently, boxing for women was frowned upon on the basis that women couldn't handle it.

It is changing now or course, but the reason for the split is mainly traditional. That doesn't mean it is inherently wrong (one can land at the right answer by the wrong calculations).

Previously, women were seen as very much second class citizens. Not able for sport, politics, work. Childcare and cooking they could handle. This crossed into sport as why would any watch the inferior sex play sport.

Ffs. Women have strived for generations to have their own sports. They can't compete against men. End of. We all know even the strongest woman has no chance against the likes of Mike tyson or Floyd Mayweather. Its not some self imposed notion of "weakness". It's the reality of being a female. Stop being ridiculous.

I'm a woman. You aren't if you think that we can just "work harder" to compete against males. Hilarious

Lantus

All sport is unfair. Basketball 7ft players, agile footballers, super stamina runners.

It just funnels people into the niche component that suits their body.

If I have a genetic component that gives me a tremendous advantage at sprinting like usain bolt then fairness becomes a funny concept.

Pick the team or athlete randomly each time. That's possible more fair.

PokeHerKing

PokeHerKing wrote: »

You claimed people are coming out as trans because its fashionable. Thats the same type of stuff they said about gay people like yourself, its like me not wanting you around my son incase he caught the gay off you.

See... the beginning was actually quite reasonable, and then, you had to put in the last part. Which is pretty damn horrible thing to say, and associate with me.

Great. We've reached that point... this topic always reaches the stage where advocates of trans issues, become unreasonable and insulting in their posting style. As oppose to actually wanting to discuss and consider others opinions.

I've had enough of this crappy posting style. I'm gone.

Brian?

EddieN75 wrote: »

Change as in being cancelled?

Cancel culture is alive and well my friend. It's a virus

Nope. Political bogeyman created by bigots.

ILoveYourVibes

Hhhhh wrote: »

So can you actually attempt an answer please?

Sure.

If human remains are found, and what remains are just bones, and they get identified as a male between 30 and 40.. Are yiu suggesting it legitimate to state that they aren't male as there are' no agreed upon definitions'.

It would be factual to suggest not everyone agrees on those definitions. And yes not everyone would agree they are male. I don't know if they are male or not. But not everyone would agree on that. Which is what i said.

It is useless for use to argue about definitions of gender as not everyone will agree on those.

Annasopra

[Deleted User] wrote: »

No. I am actually sure you are smarter than this.

But you did say that.

gmisk

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Rythmic gymnastics. Several other types of gymnastics.

Yoga

Sychcrynized swimming

Ultra endurance events.

Equestrian sports.

Shooting.

In the US the women's soccer team is better than the men's :P

The us women's soccer team that lost heavily to an under 15 boys team?....lol.
The rest you might be right I have no idea

ILoveYourVibes

Annasopra wrote: »

Have you examples of people only identifying as women to gain advantage in sports?

It will happen some day. Partic in elite sports. Its the money. We would be naive to think it won't.

ILoveYourVibes

gmisk wrote: »

The us women's soccer team that lost heavily to an under 15 boys team?....lol

This seems to have gotten under your skin.

Do you have an issue with women?

Leroy42

Leroy42 wrote: »

Biology books are based on our traditional understandings. Mainly based on sex. But we now have the knowledge and ability to adapt from that.

So we need to update our thinking.

What to do think is the defining nature of male and female?

I read this post twice, making certain it was for real. How can one be deliberately obtuse when it comes to a very simple concept. By chance we are assigned gender in the womb, emerging into the world nothing changes inherent biology. All the cosmetic alterations in the world cannot alter that reality. Now a biological male identifying as a trans woman (I'll use my own definition thank you ever so kindly) has an unfair advantage over biological women in sports. Take athletics for example, as a rule biological men are faster sprinters than biological women. Verified by the quickest times in recorded history per respective gender. Jenner has hit the nail on the head (in fairness only stating the plain obvious), truth hurts for the permanently outraged flitting from one twitter storm to the next.

Leroy42

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Ffs. Women have strived for generations to have their own sports. They can't compete against men. End of. We all know even the strongest woman has no chance against the likes of Mike tyson or Floyd Mayweather. Its not some self imposed notion of "weakness". It's the reality of being a female. Stop being ridiculous.

You are confusing two points. Woman have had to strive for their own sports, not because they couldn't compete with men, it was that they were not allowed compete at all. There are plenty of sports that women can compete on an equal footing but are separated, mainly because traditionally they weren't allowed partake at all and the only way to get to partake was to keep themselves separate.

I am not for one second arguing that men are stronger than women, or faster etc. But what is the criteria. This thread is based on the fact that one born that is one decided. But while one can always pick extremes one can also do that in any sport. Woods, Jordan, Johnson, Phelps.

They clearly had an unfair advantage over the other males, but nobody was calling for them to be banned. Surely if fairness is at the core of all this angst, then those type of people should be removed from sport.

ILoveYourVibes

Leroy42 wrote: »

Woman have had to strive for their own sports, not because they couldn't compete with men, it was that they were not allowed compete at all.

And they still struggle to get rid of the stigma OF women in sports. Women in sport still struggle for respect and equality.

They still struggle to be taken seriously.

gmisk

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

It will happen some day. Partic in elite sports. Its the money. We would be naive to think it won't.

So....you could just have said no.

Trans people are a tiny percentage of people.
Trans people who compete in competitive sport are an even tinier percentage.
Trans people who compete in elite competitive sport and even smaller number again.
There are controls in most sports around who can compete in what category for example testosterone levels.

EddieN75

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Yes.

https://worldyogacup.org/

Well that was easy.

You are factually incorrect on all the others.

I was right about everything.
I am male and you are female
I give a cast iron guarantee that I would beat you in every single sports discipline there is.

Let's set it up

suicide_circus

is_that_so wrote: »

Actually, in grammar they are considered substitute or reference words, used to avoid repetition of noun or noun phrases.

Well they clearly have descriptive significance or we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Leroy42

Deleted User wrote: »

I read this post twice, making certain it was for real. How can one be deliberately obtuse when it comes to a very simple concept. By chance we are assigned gender in the womb, emerging into the world nothing changes inherent biology. All the cosmetic alterations in the world cannot alter that reality. Now a biological male identifying as a trans woman (I'll use my own definition thank you ever so kindly) has an unfair advantage over biological women in sports. Take athletics for example, as a rule biological men are faster sprinters than biological women. Verified by the quickest times in recorded history per respective gender. Jenner has hit the nail on the head (in fairness only stating the plain obvious), truth hurts for the permanently outraged flitting from one twitter storm to the next.

And that's all fine, you think that gender is purely physical, based entirely on the genitalia. So what about a woman that produces an abnormal level of testosterone? Is there a particular level that makes her a man or does she get to compete aginst more 'average' women at an unfair advantage?

ILoveYourVibes

gmisk wrote: »

So....you could just have said no.

Trans people are a tiny percentage of people.
Trans people who compete in competitive sport are an even tinier percentage.
Trans people who compete in elite competitive sport and even smaller number again.
.

All true and good points.

There are controls in most sports around who can compete in what category for example testosterone levels

Yeah ....erm those tests are pretty worthless. Doping in certain countries ....unreal.

Im not using it as an excuse to ban trans people in sport. Im just being honest.

Cis Women have gotten away with crazy testosterone induced levels in sport.

Snake Plisken

Leroy42 wrote: »

All men are stronger than all women? What about that some men are stronger than other men, should they be excluded?

My God basic biology seems to be lost on some of you!
It's very simple you should not be allowed to compete in sports where being a biological male would give you an advantage. Cycling MMA fighting Boxing Rugby Soccer, swimming golf etc. Fair play to Jenner for coming out and taking this stand. Obviously having been a top performing male athelite he understands the advantages you would have as a biological male in women's sports.
I think all female athletes should refuse to compete against the likes of Rachel Mckinnon or fight against Fallon Fox and risk getting your skull broken!

gmisk

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

This seems to have gotten under your skin.

Do you have an issue with women?

I have barely posted on this thread....so it's hardly gotten under my skin.

What an absolutely ridiculous question, it doesn't even deserve a response.
Maybe look at my other posts and chill out.

I was just saying comparing the US men's and women's soccer team is ridiculous....men and women do not compete against each other (above the age of 12ish I think) for a reason in soccer

ILoveYourVibes

EddieN75 wrote: »

I was right about everything.
I am male and you are female
I give a cast iron guarantee that I would beat you in every single sports discipline there is.

Let's set it up

Rythmic gymnastics really?? :rolleyes:

Now I KNOW you have an issue with women.

Guy:Incognito

EddieN75 wrote: »

I was right about everything.
I am male and you are female
I give a cast iron guarantee that I would beat you in every single sports discipline there is.

Let's set it up

Strong "I'd take a point off Venus Williams" energy in all of this.

Leroy42

EddieN75 wrote: »

I was right about everything.
I am male and you are female
I give a cast iron guarantee that I would beat you in every single sports discipline there is.

Let's set it up

Jebus, I've read it all now. Put your c003 away and calm down.

You think a 'fight' proves you right.

Marianna Vos would destroy you in a cycle race. Katie Taylor would destroy you in a fight. I guess that make you a woman

jackboy

Leroy42 wrote: »

They clearly had an unfair advantage over the other males, but nobody was calling for them to be banned. Surely if fairness is at the core of all this angst, then those type of people should be removed from sport.

Again, there are grades in those sports. Those elite athletes are not allowed to compete against the vast majority of other male athletes. Just like they are not allowed to compete again athletes of lower grades, they are not allowed to compete against women.

EddieN75

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Rythmic gymnastics really?? :rolleyes:

Now I KNOW you have an issue with women.

Yes. I would be better at that sport than you because I am male

is_that_so

suicide_circus wrote: »

Well they clearly have descriptive significance or we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Not really, they are used to structure text, both spoken and written, and help improve communication. Let's just say they are an easy target in all of this because of arguments elsewhere about gender bias in language.

ILoveYourVibes

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Strong "I'd take a point off Venus Williams" energy in all of this.

There are a lot of people who think those two are on steriods too ....allegedly ..and i am not suggesting anything ..it could all be racism who knows.

TomTomTim

Leroy42 wrote: »

Jebus, I've read it all now. Put your c003 away and calm down.

You think a 'fight' proves you right.

Marianna Vos would destroy you in a cycle race. Katie Taylor would destroy you in a fight. I guess that make you a woman

Now you're being dishonest. He never said he could beat the best of the best, he clearly meant that an average man will beat an average woman nearly every time. Marianna Vos isn't an average, she's one of the best. She'd lose to the vast majority of male pros though, which is the point.