Investment Firms Buying Estates

Ace2007

pioneerpro wrote: »

Ah yeah, and 20 years down the line when the companies have long folded and no one is legally liable, then the private buyer and the council have to cough up for fire remediation works or we end up with another Grenfell disaster.

Going to cost the state alone over €1 billion to remedy. Properties can neither be rented or sold until brought up to code.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/repairs-to-defective-apartments-could-cost-more-than-1bn-1.4424879

But for the same argument there are companies in Ireland right now that are not investment funds, that are building sub standard houses - and if you look on social media you will see protests about them - that every political party in the country knows about. But strangely it's the investment funds that are getting the heat and not some Irish companies? Why is that? The owners of these houses are looking for 100% redress that Irish taxpayers need to foot the bill for.

pioneerpro

nimrod86 wrote: »

I know among my friends I'm the exception, but I started working at 21 and immediately put in the max contribution to my pension, saved €1000/month into a savings account, and last autumn I bought my own house at aged 24.

You're not just an exception, you're a gross statistical outlier.

€260,000 was the median outside of Dublin
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/house-prices-defy-predictions-to-rise-2-2-in-2020-1.4483071

The median salary is 38,500-40,000 EUR per year depending on who you cite. Lets be generous and put you at the high-end from the moment you graduated.

40k x 3.5 = 140k max mortgage drawdown
140k (+36k deposit) == 175-200k guide price.

So where did you buy? And would you suggest you're representative of your cohort - as the figures certainly don't.

Dav010

pioneerpro wrote: »

Ah yeah, and 20 years down the line when the companies have long folded and no one is legally liable, then the private buyer and the council have to cough up for fire remediation works or we end up with another Grenfell disaster.

Going to cost the state alone over €1 billion to remedy. Properties can neither be rented or sold until brought up to code.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/repairs-to-defective-apartments-could-cost-more-than-1bn-1.4424879

To be fair, plenty of posters on Boards have posted about difficulties with getting “amateur” landlords to repair properties, I don’t think I have ever read one where a tenant in a REIT property had the same problem. The large fund owned developments tend to employ maintenance contractors to sort out problems.

nimrod86

Ace2007 wrote: »

You keep saying that supply is the issue - it's not - it's people unwillingness to move outside of Dublin or their chosen location - go on daft.ie. or myhome.ie right now and anyone who is looking to buy a house within their budget will find it in Ireland. The problem is that it's not in Dublin or where they want to live.

Exactly this! I'm after buying in Offaly in the past year. I work in Kildare, and I'm from North Wicklow. Would I have liked to live in North Wicklow/South Dublin? Of course I would, but I couldn't afford it, so I got on with it and found somewhere in budget and with a reasonable commute.

Dav010

Jizique wrote: »

And if they are not required to pay tax?
I am far from a leftie (except left handed) but the willingness of the govt to defend the fact these funds do not pay tax on a similar basis to the rest of us is appalling.
Screw over the middle class, Levy our pension funds just after a market collapse, but no tax for property funds.
It is just like their opposition to Apple paying tax; indefensible.

I agree with you, the taxation on funds needs to be looked at. My response was to the nonsense posted that funds are not taxpayers, they are, but their expenditure may outweigh income and they are taking advantage to generous tax incentives provided by the Government to stimulate investment. They still have to submit income returns for taxation purposes.

The Student

Jizique wrote: »

And if they are not required to pay tax?
I am far from a leftie (except left handed) but the willingness of the govt to defend the fact these funds do not pay tax on a similar basis to the rest of us is appalling.
Screw over the middle class, Levy our pension funds just after a market collapse, but no tax for property funds.
It is just like their opposition to Apple paying tax; indefensible.

While I don't agree with the REITS paying little or no corporation tax we need their funds.

I am a landlord with a single rented property who is one of the squeezed middle.

I am also a realist. We are a small open economy who still have significant State debts and we can't afford anymore. Whether we like it or not we need these investors. We are not big enough to dictate terms of business with these funds.

Yes we can make it unattractive for them to invest. But what do you think will happen? They will take their funds elsewhere and who will fund the building of the properties then.

This is an answer I have yet to see.

pioneerpro

Dav010 wrote: »

To be fair, plenty of posters on Boards have posted about difficulties with getting “amateur” landlords to repair properties, I don’t think I have ever read one where a tenant in a REIT property had the same problem. The large fund owned developments tend to employ maintenance contractors to sort out problems.

What in the name of god do fire remediation works and the public vs private provisioning of Social Housing have to do with anecdotal nonsense about 'amateur landlords'?

REITs and Amateur landlords are neither responsible for tenants in social housing nor responsible for providing such social housing. You're answering the point you wanted to refute, not the one that was posted.

nimrod86

pioneerpro wrote: »

You're not just an exception, you're a gross statistical outlier.

€260,000 was the median outside of Dublin
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/house-prices-defy-predictions-to-rise-2-2-in-2020-1.4483071

The median salary is 38,500-40,000 EUR per year depending on who you cite. Lets be generous and put you at the high-end from the moment you graduated.

40k x 3.5 = 140k max mortgage drawdown
140k (+36k deposit) == 175-200k guide price.

So where did you buy? And would you suggest you're representative of your cohort - as the figures certainly don't.

I bought in Offaly for just over €200k, and was required to give a 20% deposit even though I was a first time buyer.

Yes, in terms of median salary for the country I'm above, but as are my friends from college who I was referring. We all got good jobs straight out of college and earn around the same, but had completely different attitudes towards financial planning and saving, which was the point I was trying to make.

Dav010

pioneerpro wrote: »

What in the name of god do fire remediation works and the public vs private provisioning of Social Housing have to do with anecdotal nonsense about 'amateur landlords'?

REITs and Amateur landlords are neither responsible for tenants in social housing nor responsible for providing such social housing. You're answering the point you wanted to refute, not the one that was posted.

I’m struggling to see what this has to do with investment funds buying estates. If the State already owns those properties, it’s buyer beware. My post that you quoted indicates that REITs are better at maintaining/fixing properties.

pioneerpro

nimrod86 wrote: »

I bought in Offaly for just over €200k, and was required to give a 20% deposit even though I was a first time buyer.

Yes, in terms of median salary for the country I'm above, but as are my friends from college who I was referring. We all got good jobs straight out of college, but had completely different attitudes towards financial planning and saving, which was the point I as trying to make.

On the median you've have max 176k - so you're clearly above the Irish Industrial Wage rather than the top-range of the median salary. That alone makes you an outlier.

Indeed, a quick google tells us you earn more than the average household in Offaly while simultaneously working in the 3rd highest median wage area in the Country. So now we're entering statistical anomaly territory.

https://www.offalyexpress.ie/news/home/425391/revealed-how-much-money-do-we-really-earn-in-offaly.html

Buying a house is a major accomplishment, and almost unheard of at 24, but this is not remotely representative of either your cohort or the housing conversation at large.

This leads me to one of two conclusions - everyone bar you needs to stop horsing down the avocado toast, or you need to be a little less self-congratulatory about your unique circumstances on a thread where most struggle to make rent month-to-month.

pioneerpro

Dav010 wrote: »

I’m struggling to see what this has to do with investment funds buying estates. If the State already owns those properties, it’s buyer beware. My post that you quoted indicates that REITs are better at maintaining/fixing properties.

I responded to a point about the provisionment of social housing by public versus private bodies and the huge gap in indemnification/safety standards as a result of private-oriented policies in the 90s and 2000s contrary to the public-private partnerships ranging from the 20s to the 80s. Not whatever point you thought I was answering.

Dav010

pioneerpro wrote: »

On the median you've have max 176k - so you're clearly above the Irish Industrial Wage rather than the top-range of the median salary. That alone makes you an outlier.

Indeed, a quick google tells us you earn more than the average household in Offaly while simultaneously working in the 3rd highest median wage area in the Country. So now we're entering statistical anomaly territory.

https://www.offalyexpress.ie/news/home/425391/revealed-how-much-money-do-we-really-earn-in-offaly.html

Buying a house is a major accomplishment, and almost unheard of at 24, but this is not remotely representative of either your cohort or the housing conversation at large.

This leads me to one of two conclusions - everyone bar you needs to stop horsing down the avocado toast, or you need to be a little less self-congratulatory about your unique circumstances on a thread where most struggle to make rent month-to-month.

A little begrudgery there me thinks, but ya, if it means making sacrifices in location and living expenses, then so be it. Stop expecting others to help you.

Ace2007

pioneerpro wrote: »

This leads me to one of two conclusions - everyone bar you needs to stop horsing down the avocado toast, or you need to be a little less self-congratulatory about your unique circumstances on a thread where most struggle to make rent month-to-month.

It's about scarifies thought. I have mates - one lad is in a house share in north Dublin - pays 400 quid a month + bills, another lad is over is over on south side in fancy apartment paying 1200 a month. They both get paid roughly the same. Both would like to buy in the future - which one do you think complains more about the price of houses and how hard it is to save for a deposit?

You can rent cheaply in Dublin if you want, but majority of people want to be in the fancy apartment, want to be in the middle of city, don't want to pay for taxi's, want to live with their friends or close by. They don't want to move in with strangers, or a place that is that little bit further out of the city etc. If you look at the example above, over a 5 year period lad paying 400 a month, could potentially save 40k more than the other lad, and that's just from deciding where to live - not even looking at cutting back on nights out and having the craic.

If you want to buy houses in Dublin, you either make sacrifices for a few years, or you educate yourself to getting a high paying job.

If you are struggling to pay rent, then move to a different location and commute for a few years. I don't know how some of these people move to Oz and live where their support bubbles don't exist, or their family isn't there - but because it's what they want to do - they make it work.

pioneerpro

Dav010 wrote: »

A little begrudgery there me thinks, but ya, if it means making sacrifices in location and living expenses, then so be it. Stop expecting others to help you.

Begrudgery?

How about living in one of the lowest COL areas in the country, whilst simultaneously working in one of the highest earning areas in the country, and then going out and buying a house - whilst earning more than the average household in your county - and suggesting that the only difference between you and the average 24 year old was moral fibre?

Now that's begrudgery.

Me pointing out the reality of the situation from a purely statistical point of view is clarification, not condemnation.

Dav010

pioneerpro wrote: »

Begrudgery?

How about living in one of the lowest COL areas in the country, whilst simultaneously working in one of the highest earning areas in the country, and then going out and buying a house - whilst earning more than the average household in your county - and suggesting that the only difference between you and the average 24 year old was moral fibre?

Now that's begrudgery.

Me pointing out the reality of the situation from a purely statistical point of view is clarification, not condemnation.

And have to checked to see if you can live in a cheaper area with a higher quality of living? Or is it that you want to live where you are and as a consequence pay that high rent?

That’s practicality.

Ace2007

pioneerpro wrote: »

Begrudgery?

How about living in one of the lowest COL areas in the country, whilst simultaneously working in one of the highest earning areas in the country, and then going out and buying a house - whilst earning more than the average household in your county - and suggesting that the only difference between you and the average 24 year old was moral fibre?

Now that's begrudgery.

Me pointing out the reality of the situation from a purely statistical point of view is clarification, not condemnation.

But anyone can do that, the problem is too many people think they are entitled to live in Dublin. Fair play to the poster for doing it. They have their home, they can now enjoy themselves a little more, and listen to their friends moan about cost of rent, or how hard it is to save.

Dav010

Ace2007 wrote: »

But anyone can do that, the problem is too many people think they are entitled to live in Dublin. Fair play to the poster for doing it. They have their home, they can now enjoy themselves a little more, and listen to their friends moan about cost of rent, or how hard it is to save.

There was an article a couple of weeks ago about the incredible increase in bank deposits during the past year as shops were closed and travel abroad restricted. Shows that savings are possible when spending on luxuries are curtailed.

pioneerpro

Dav010 wrote: »

And have to checked to see if you can live in a cheaper area with a higher quality of living? Or is it that you want to live where you are and as a consequence pay that high rent?

Lol, you're wilfully ignoring every point brought before you to suit your own agenda.

One person came on the thread and said they managed it and asserted that everyone else could to. I explained how this is not remotely in accordance with the day-to-day reality of the rest of his cohort; the poster even acknowledges he is an outlier amongst his own friends who found themselves in a similarly privileged situation.

You then come in and decide that my response is some projection regarding my own situation, rather than an objective commentary on the facts at hand.

I think that says it all about you arguing a viewpoint in good faith, versus simply expressing personal prejudice about tenants and the rental situation in Ireland.

These are the headlines from this weekend. Obviously they're all wrong and people just need to pull themselves up by the bootstraps, cut their cloth, curb the cocaine and avocados etc....

pioneerpro

Dav010 wrote: »

There was an article a couple of weeks ago about the incredible increase in bank deposits during the past year as shops were closed and travel abroad restricted. Shows that savings are possible when spending on luxuries transport, weddings, birthdays, anniversaries and sporting activities are curtailed.

FYP.

Ace2007

pioneerpro wrote: »

Lol, you're wilfully ignoring every point brought before you to suit your own agenda.

One person came on the thread and said they managed it and asserted that everyone else could to. I explained how this is not remotely in accordance with the day-to-day reality of the rest of his cohort; the poster even acknowledges he is an outlier amongst his own friends who found themselves in a similarly privileged situation.
.

Just because a cohort of people behave in a certain manner doesn't mean that it's normal or real. I understand why 20 somethings would behave in this way, but it's more because they are caught up in their heads of thinking they need the expensive apartments, they need the flashy clothes, the 2/3 nights out a week, they need the holidays. They want the good life. Nothing wrong with that - but the same people can't turn around and complain that they can't afford to buy a house in 5 years time or that rent is to high, because of the lifestyle they have chosen.

You seem to fail to gasp this, young people or people of any age can choose how they live their life - and if they want to save money they can do it - if they really want to, but you can't expect to have it both ways, i.e. live the high life you want, and then buy the house of your dreams in Dublin, unless you have a very high paying job (and if you do, it's probably because you made sacrifices when they were younger, by studying instead of partying).

Dav010

pioneerpro wrote: »

Lol, you're wilfully ignoring every point brought before you to suit your own agenda.

One person came on the thread and said they managed it and asserted that everyone else could to. I explained how this is not remotely in accordance with the day-to-day reality of the rest of his cohort; the poster even acknowledges he is an outlier amongst his own friends who found themselves in a similarly privileged situation.

You then come in and decide that my response is some projection regarding my own situation, rather than an objective commentary on the facts at hand.

I think that says it all about you arguing a viewpoint in good faith, versus simply expressing personal prejudice about tenants and the rental situation in Ireland.

I take it then you haven’t checked to see if there is cheaper accommodation and better qol elsewhere. But you want the State to help you stay near where you are.

pioneerpro

Ace2007 wrote: »

Just because a cohort of people behave in a certain manner doesn't mean that it's normal or real.

Hold the phone a second.

As a graduate student he immediately earned more than the household income for a family in his county.

This is not remotely the reality for his cohort - and it has nothing to do with their social lives.

You seem to fail to gasp this, young people or people of any age can choose how they live their life - and if they want to save money they can do it - if they really want to,

And you seem to completely fail to grasp that you could save 100% of your net income on the average industrial wage after rent and end up at the exact same entrypoint you were in 12 months prior due to an overheated property market scaling prices faster than inflation and COL increases.

THE AVERAGE HOUSE price rose by 7.6% in the year to March 2021, according to the latest Daft.ie House Price Report.

The average price during January, February and March of 2020 was €256,000 – this has increased to €275,751 this quarter, a rise of almost €20,000.

This marks the second quarter in a row where prices are nearly 8% higher than a year previously, roughly twice the rate of inflation seen during 2018 and 2019.

https://www.thejournal.ie/daft-report-3-5395912-Mar2021/

Oh hey, look at our mystical outlier from Offaly. I wonder wtf could have possibly caused 17.7% house price increase in a year :rolleyes:

Dav010

Pioneerpro, as you posted a bit of research on an earlier poster’s experience, let’s have a look at yours. What area do you live in, how much do you pay? let’s see if there are houses outside Dublin you could save rent on.

Ace2007

pioneerpro wrote: »

Hold the phone a second.

As a graduate student he immediately earned more than the household income for a family in his county.

Do you not think that he deserves to be congratulated on this - that he worked hard in school and got a well paying job, and then he did everything he could to save money and then buy the property in a location he could afford. I have no idea if he's from Offaly or even works there, but he realized he could afford to buy there.

The majority of people looking to buy a house in Dublin, could probably afford to buy in Offaly but they don't want to.

pioneerpro

Dav010 wrote: »

I take it then you haven’t checked to see if there is cheaper accommodation and better qol elsewhere. But you want the State to help you stay near where you are.

LMFAO. Nail on the head as regards your projecting

Have a quick look through my post history and you should get an idea of how much you're grasping at straws here. I'm particularly lucky and privileged to both work in a high-demand and a high-paying area.

That doesn't mean I don't get to acknowledge major societal failings and an artificial housing bubble leading to gross exponential increases in government expenditure at a time when we can't afford it.

pioneerpro

Ace2007 wrote: »

Do you not think that he deserves to be congratulated on this - that he worked hard in school and got a well paying job, and then he did everything he could to save money and then buy the property in a location he could afford.

Yep, and I acknowledged that.

pioneerpro wrote:

Buying a house is a major accomplishment, and almost unheard of at 24, but this is not remotely representative of either your cohort or the housing conversation at large.

But the fact he deserves to be congratulated literally reinforces my argument that he's an outlier. You don't congratulate the median.

The majority of people looking to buy a house in Dublin, could probably afford to buy in Offaly but they don't want to.

The majority of people looking to buy a house in Dublin tend to work in Dublin. This has always been the problem, and is the exact reason we've urban sprawl/commuter towns and why the OP was getting paid so much in Intel in Kildare versus Joe Bloggs Widget Co. in Offaly.

If transport was sufficient, and this was remotely feasible, we'd see the cost of a house in Dublin averaged across houses in the back-arse of Kerry and Roscommon. But it isn't, so we don't.

Ace2007

pioneerpro wrote: »

Yep, and I acknowledged that.



But the fact he deserves to be congratulated literally reinforces my argument that he's an outlier. You don't congratulate the median.



The majority of people looking to buy a house in Dublin tend to work in Dublin. This has always been the problem, and is the exact reason we've urban sprawl/commuter towns and why the OP was getting paid so much in Intel in Kildare versus Joe Bloggs Widget Co. in Offaly.

If transport was sufficient, and this was remotely feasible, we'd see the cost of a house in Dublin averaged across houses in the back-arse of Kerry and Roscommon. But it isn't, so we don't.

It's not an outlier if it's achievable by others but they choose not to do it though.

While the majority of people do work in Dublin, this is usually by choice to a large degree. Any financially qualified individual will be able to get a job outside Dublin, but for a lower salary - something which a lot of people find hard to accept - cost of living is lower or the company is smaller etc.

Construction jobs are available outside of Dublin - but again wages be lower.

There is a world outside of Dublin, and the last year has shown us that people can wfh successfully - so do you need to be in Dublin 5 days a week. From my own job and before Covid there were multiple people living in the country and working in Dublin 2 days a week staying in B&B's and wfh the other 3 days. Much much cheaper, and the employer was happy with the arrangement because they were as asset to the firm.

pioneerpro

Ace2007 wrote: »

It's not an outlier if it's achievable by others but they choose not to do it though.

An entire cohort choosing to do so means the housing prices rise to the point where they're unattainable for said cohort. Basic market theory. He's an outlier both by statistical definition and by life choice. By mitigating that by

1. Reducing his Savings
or
2. Increasing the Savings of others

Then the outcome in either case - house acquisition - becomes a fight to the bottom between him and his cohort in terms of current quality of life and eventual quality of real estate purchase. To the point where the outcome eventually becomes unattainable as the market reaches equilibrium of price in the face of a dearth of supply.

I've already illustrated what happened in 2020->2021 when everyone was able to save a load of money working from home, but no further supply was added.

THE AVERAGE HOUSE price rose by 7.6% in the year to March 2021, according to the latest Daft.ie House Price Report.

The average price during January, February and March of 2020 was €256,000 – this has increased to €275,751 this quarter, a rise of almost €20,000.

This marks the second quarter in a row where prices are nearly 8% higher than a year previously, roughly twice the rate of inflation seen during 2018 and 2019.

https://www.thejournal.ie/daft-report-3-5395912-Mar2021/

Using the OPs scenario whereby he saved €1,000 a month, he'd be -€8,000 worse off in terms of buying a house on the open market after a year of savings in 2020.

It's a zero-sum game at the moment.

While the majority of people do work in Dublin, this is usually by choice to a large degree. Any financially qualified individual will be able to get a job outside Dublin...

The majority of people work in Dublin because its where the work is - a self-fulfilling prophecy in terms of new companies setting up thereafter.

This is proven at a public sector level by the attempted decentralisation of the Civil Service a number of years ago.

There is a world outside of Dublin, and the last year has shown us that people can wfh successfully - so do you need to be in Dublin 5 days a week. From my own job and before Covid there were multiple people living in the country and working in Dublin 2 days a week staying in B&B's and wfh the other 3 days. Much much cheaper, and the employer was happy with the arrangement because they were as asset to the firm.

Completely agree - and I really hope MNCs in particular align with your thinking and logical outcomes.

As for WFH practices, I've had similar in two reasonably sane employers. Problem was ****ty management hanging this WFH over your head as an annually assessed 'privilege' and perceiving it as a negative professional trait.

I suppose the real question is will WGH wages regress compared to 'on-site' wages in the post-COVID world? All I've seen as a result is a massive surge in prices around the Dublin commuter belt, and particularly inside the M50, without a significant drop in either rents or average house prices in Dublin or around the country (see DAFT.ie map posted above by me).

snow_bunny

pioneerpro wrote: »

LMFAO. Nail on the head as regards your projecting

Have a quick look through my post history and you should get an idea of how much you're grasping at straws here. I'm particularly lucky and privileged to both work in a high-demand and a high-paying area.

That doesn't mean I don't get to acknowledge major societal failings and an artificial housing bubble leading to gross exponential increases in government expenditure at a time when we can't afford it.

Lol, "quit your whinging pov, pull yourself up by the bootstraps and you can be just like me!"

Most of these anecdotal personal tales of sacrifice and compromise completely fail to acknowledge that it's mostly luck and timing in life that makes the difference. I know plenty of hard working, top 10% salaried, heavy saving, non avocado toast eating couples who've been priced out of Dublin. If they'd been in the same position 6 years ago they'd have a home bought no bother.

Then if you add corrupt government policy, REITS and councils that we currently have in the bidding mix...

I'm in disbelief at the attitudes blaming young people for the failings of our government and society. It's almost trolling at this stage.

Dav010

snow_bunny wrote: »

Lol, "quit your whinging pov, pull yourself up by the bootstraps and you can be just like me!"

Most of these anecdotal personal tales of sacrifice and compromise completely fail to acknowledge that it's mostly luck and timing in life that makes the difference. I know plenty of hard working, top 10% salaried, heavy saving, non avocado toast eating couples who've been priced out of Dublin. If they'd been in the same position 6 years ago they'd have a home bought no bother.

Then if you add corrupt government policy, REITS and councils that we currently have in the bidding mix...

I'm in disbelief at the attitudes blaming young people for the failings of our government and society. It's almost trolling at this stage.

Why don't they buy outside Dublin?

Its not social blaming, you want the State to help you buy a house where you want. Tough, you make your own luck.