Covid 19 Part XXXV-956,720 ROI (5,952 deaths) 452,946 NI (3,002 deaths) (08/01) Read OP

Arghus

Klonker wrote: »

What the hell was the fake result thing about? I dont think anyone is looking for self administered tests to be rolled out for travel or events.The only people who would use self administered tests are people who are being cautious in the first place and doing tests off their own back. If they were going to fake an optional test result they just wouldn't bother with the test in the first place.

Are those not amongst some of the main industries that are arguing in favour of widespread use of antigen testing? Isn't that the basis of numerous questions that were put to NPHET today? Questions about travel and the role of antigen testing in it have certainly made up the majority of the conversation in this area here for the last few weeks.

Surely, also, if antigen testing becomes extremely prevalent most of these tests will be self administered in practice?

cheezums

amazing how people continually find things to be outraged about. first it was lockdowns, then people saying our vaccination program was doomed before it even began. now the outrage is over antigen tests of all things.

the pandemic is over lads, and we fared a lot better than most countries. NPHET took a conservative science based approach to this thing, which many countries did not. i'd rather have NPHET than some clueless populist morons like Bolsonaro or Trump making the calls.

Klonker

Goldengirl wrote: »

That last paragraph interests me .

Why is everyone so het up about the antigen tests when it is so easy to walk in and get a very much more accurate PCR ?

Let's be honest here ..It is cheaper to travel with antigen tests and easier to pass one while asymptomatic .

If NPHET said antigen tests all round for every gig, every match, every social event , every workplace...but not for travel because that is where we need full accuracy at the moment , people would still be giving out and running incorrect comparisons between the tests on her

It's about travel , full stop . Not the importance and usefulness of antigen testing .

While the aviation industry is on its knees it is disingenuous to say that antigen testing will save it .

What will save the industry and everything else in our economy is continuing to reduce this infection to just a cold, and one of the best ways to do that while we are vaccinating everybody we can, is by keeping this latest variant out as much as possible .
We won't do that with antigen tests.

We already have a leaky border up North , so we are literally running a race here so we don't get caught like the UK.

It's debatable if PCR tests are more accurate, depends what you are looking for. If you're looking to find infectious individuals some experts say antigen tests are more accurate (Prof Michael Mina for example).

If this is just about the travel industry why were NPHET giving examples of self administered tests on asymptomatic people when nobody is looking for or expecting self administered tests to be used for aviation? And why were the showing how to fake a test of all test in aviation would be professionally taken? Made no sense.

You are wrong to think antigen tests won't help the aviation industry. Why is aviation here repeatedly calling for them to be excepted here if the wouldn't help? Are they just doing it for the craic? Whatll help save the aviation sector here is get rid of our stupid travel restrictions now and come in line with our EU counterparties on travel rules and testing.

Klonker

Klonker wrote: »

National guidelines are to wear face coverings on crowded spaces. Looked a bit crowded on that video to me.

I thought it was national guidelines to wear when in offices but looks like you're right, it's just my employers policy.

Without having watched it I’d imagine they were two meters apart.

Antigen tests are used in Western Europe to control the spread of the virus but not in Ireland. Medical Professionals in the rest of Western Europe are not incompetent.
Ireland remains closed for business to the rest of Europe. If you want to visit Ireland you are paying for an expensive PCR test and then find the means of travelling to Ireland is severely restricted as flights are removed from service due to being uneconomic to operate with reduced passenger loads.

cheezums

the only thing that controls the spread of the virus is vaccines. this "test test test" thing has always been nonsense and hasn't worked in a single country no matter how easy or instant it is. the virus is too contagious and people in general do not follow guidelines.

Klonker

Arghus wrote: »

Are those not amongst some of the main industries that are arguing in favour of widespread use of antigen testing? Isn't that the basis of numerous questions that were put to NPHET today? Questions about travel and the role of antigen testing in it have certainly made up the majority of the conversation in this area here for the last few weeks.

Surely, also, if antigen testing becomes extremely prevalent most of these tests will be self administered in practice?

You purposefully ignored the 'self administered' part of my comment on your first paragraph then threw it in in a different context in your second paragraph to make it look like you didn't ignore. Obviously don't have a good response if that's what you're resorting too. Nobody had looked for self admin tests for travel and you know this.

fun loving criminal

Hoping someone will be able to answer this for me or someone with the same experience or similar.

I cannot go to work if somebody in my house has to get a covid test. What if somebody in my house went abroad, on their return they have to isolate and get a test a few days after they return.

Do I have to isolate along with their self isolation until their test comes back?

cheezums

cheezums wrote: »

the only thing that controls the spread of the virus is vaccines. this "test test test" thing has always been nonsense and hasn't worked in a single country no matter how easy or instant it is. the virus is too contagious and people in general do not follow guidelines.

You are not well informed at all. Testing is exactly what Germany has done. They have blanket coverage of antigen testing and then PCR testing where there is a positive result on an antigen test. The outcome is a 7 day value of 13.2 cases per 100,000 of population.
I'd suggest you travel more and broaden your horizons but in Ireland foreign travel is effectively verboten so it is no wonder you parrot the guidance of NPHET.

Goldengirl

Klonker wrote: »

It's debatable if PCR tests are more accurate, depends what you are looking for. If you're looking to find infectious individuals some experts say antigen tests are more accurate (Prof Michael Mina for example).

If this is just about the travel industry why were NPHET giving examples of self administered tests on asymptomatic people when nobody is looking for or expecting self administered tests to be used for aviation? And why were the showing how to fake a test of all test in aviation would be professionally taken? Made no sense.

You are wrong to think antigen tests won't help the aviation industry. Why is aviation here repeatedly calling for them to be excepted here if the wouldn't help? Are they just doing it for the craic? Whatll help save the aviation sector here is get rid of our stupid travel restrictions now and come in line with our EU counterparties on travel rules and testing.

Yeah I knew that was what it was about .
It won't help anyone as I said if we let much more of that variant in while we are not all fully vaxxed and end up restricted longer . That will prolong their misery more in the travel industry .
Been here before with people saying open all up when opening slowly.
By August the aviation and nany more will pretty much be getting back to normal here .

By the way Mina has an agenda ...

Goldengirl

Deleted User wrote: »

Antigen tests are used in Western Europe to control the spread of the virus but not in Ireland. Medical Professionals in the rest of Western Europe are not incompetent.
Ireland remains closed for business to the rest of Europe. If you want to visit Ireland you are paying for an expensive PCR test and then find the means of travelling to Ireland is severely restricted as flights are removed from service due to being uneconomic to operate with reduced passenger loads.

What restrictions have Western Eutope on the UK do you know ?

cheezums

Deleted User wrote: »

You are not well informed at all. Testing is exactly what Germany has done. They have blanket coverage of antigen testing and then PCR testing where there is a positive result on an antigen test. The outcome is a 7 day value of 13.2 cases per 100,000 of population.
I'd suggest you travel more and broaden your horizons but in Ireland foreign travel is effectively verboten so it is no wonder you parrot the guidance of NPHET.

and if you were more informed you would know that antigen tests mostly catch people with symptoms and at the height of their infection. i.e. a small fraction of covid positive people. i.e. completely useless for controlling a virus.

if you want to travel, wait until you get a vaccine.

cheezums

cheezums wrote: »

and if you were more informed you would know that antigen tests mostly catch people with symptoms and at the height of their infection. i.e. a small fraction of covid positive people. i.e. completely useless for controlling a virus.

if you want to travel, wait until you get a vaccine.

And if you read more of this thread you would know that Medical Professionals outside Ireland have adopted a pragmatic and effective response to catch those who are shedding virus not those who are infected. I have referred to this multiple times.

Goldengirl

Goldengirl wrote: »

What restrictions have Western Eutope on the UK do you know ?

If you want to start you can look for Risikogebiet on rki.de. You'll find parts of Ireland on the list.

Klonker

Goldengirl wrote: »

Yeah I knew that was what it was about .
It won't help anyone as I said if we let much more of that variant in while we are not all fully vaxxed and end up restricted longer . That will prolong their misery more in the travel industry .
Been here before with people saying open all up when opening slowly.
By August the aviation and nany more will pretty much be getting back to normal here .

By the way Mina has an agenda ...

Amazing how countries like Germany that accept antigen tests for travel, have no fine in place for travel and no quarentine period once arrive in the country, that their case numbers are decreasing more rapidly than ours
antigen testing is a tool we should be using slot more widespread. I don't think just because Mina is involved with an antigen test we should ignore what he has to say. I don't think he's gonna get rich from the little market that is Ireland, that's even if the brand he's involved in is used. I'd put more weight in his expertise than that of NPHET anyway.

Arghus

Klonker wrote: »

You purposefully ignored the 'self administered' part of my comment on your first paragraph then threw it in in a different context in your second paragraph to make it look like you didn't ignore. Obviously don't have a good response if that's what you're resorting too. Nobody had looked for self admin tests for travel and you know this.

Hang on, hang on. I'm not trying to dodge something here. I'm posting in good faith, believe or not.

"You know this" - Well, no I don't know this. And that's the truth, there's a lot of of Covid related developments and news that I have simply checked out of over the last few weeks. Mentally, I reached my limit and decided not to follow every last twist and turn hour by hour, so, I'm sure you're much more informed than I am currently in relation to all this.

Let me rephrase what I'm saying. Okay, let's say that indeed nobody is asking for self administered tests in relation to travel. Fine, I accept that, if that is the case.

But the question I really ask is if the tests aren't to be self administered how feasible and how practical is it to use them for travel, en masse? If thousands upon thousands - and surely in this context these are the type of numbers we're talking about - of people want to use antigen testing to travel and if we're saying they can't be self administered then I wonder in real terms what is their actual practicality? Surely there's a huge demand on resources and manpower still involved with the testing.

Arghus

Arghus wrote: »

Hang on, hang on. I'm not trying to dodge something here. I'm posting in good faith, believe or not.

"You know this" - Well, no I don't know this. And that's the truth, there's a lot of of Covid related developments and news that I have simply checked out of over the last few weeks. Mentally, I reached my limit and decided not to follow every last twist and turn hour by hour, so, I'm sure you're much more informed than I am currently in relation to all this.

Let me rephrase what I'm saying. Okay, let's say that indeed nobody is asking for self administered tests in relation to travel. Fine, I accept that, if that is the case.

But the question I really ask is if the tests aren't to be self administered how feasible and how practical is it to use them for travel, en masse? If thousands upon thousands - and surely in this context these are the type of numbers we're talking about - of people want to use antigen testing to travel and if we're saying they can't be self administered then I wonder in real terms what is their actual practicality? Surely there's a huge demand on resources and manpower still involved with the testing.

How it works in Germany is that there is blanket coverage of testing centres. That is the starting point. I can't find anywhere near my destination in Ireland that will carry out an antigen test and issue a cert which means for an antigen test I'd have to pay 49 euro at Dublin Airport.
Testing is free in Germany using approved antigen tests and results are received in 15 minutes. If you want to travel then you pay 10 euro for a certificate to prove you have tested negative. It is working extremely well in Germany but NPHET wouldn't want anyone to hear about how the virus is being successfully fought in Germany.

bucketybuck

Klonker wrote: »

Very poor showing from NPHET today at that hearing, now sure what order to go in;

Keep asking questions like that and you'll never get a job in Irish politics. Or the Irish media, for that matter.

cheezums wrote: »

the pandemic is over lads

Thats great news! Let Tony know will you, he thinks we are still in one.

normanoffside

Klonker wrote: »

You are wrong to think antigen tests won't help the aviation industry. Why is aviation here repeatedly calling for them to be excepted here if the wouldn't help? Are they just doing it for the craic? Whatll help save the aviation sector here is get rid of our stupid travel restrictions now and come in line with our EU counterparties on travel rules and testing.

There can be no spontaneity in travel/aviation when PCR is required. If you need to travel immediately you can’t because first you have to go get a PCR test and wait for the results. This is particularly an issue for people in rural areas.
Antigen allows you to take a test at an airport lab just before checkin which is why aviation wants it so much.

NPHET have kicked the can down the road so long that it will become a moot point as everyone will soon be able to travel after they are vaccinated in a more spontaneous manner again.

PTH2009

Will we ever get the answer of why Ireland had/is one of the most restricted countries in the world in this pandemic ?

Is it cause of our culture which a big part of it is drinking and been social people ?

Is it cause of our health system, one that the general has no control over ?

Is it cause of the spineless leadership in the government who are frightened to make a decision and are hiding behind 'Health officials' ?

beyond frustration at this point

Klonker

Arghus wrote: »

Hang on, hang on. I'm not trying to dodge something here. I'm posting in good faith, believe or not.

"You know this" - Well, no I don't know this. And that's the truth, there's a lot of of Covid related developments and news that I have simply checked out of over the last few weeks. Mentally, I reached my limit and decided not to follow every last twist and turn hour by hour, so, I'm sure you're much more informed than I am currently in relation to all this.

Let me rephrase what I'm saying. Okay, let's say that indeed nobody is asking for self administered tests in relation to travel. Fine, I accept that, if that is the case.

But the question I really ask is if the tests aren't to be self administered how feasible and how practical is it to use them for travel, en masse? If thousands upon thousands - and surely in this context these are the type of numbers we're talking about - of people want to use antigen testing to travel and if we're saying they can't be self administered then I wonder in real terms what is their actual practicality? Surely there's a huge demand on resources and manpower still involved with the testing.

But somehow we'll have the manpower for the slower, more technical PCR tests for travel but not the antigen tests? And if we did allow antigen tests for travel, we'd actually be getting the test done in another country anyway, who are more than likely already using them fur a number of other destinations so should have no problem for capacity.

Arghus

Klonker wrote: »

But somehow we'll have the manpower for the slower, more technical PCR tests for travel but not the antigen tests? And if we did allow antigen tests for travel, we'd actually be getting the test done in another country anyway, who are more than likely already using them fur a number of other destinations so should have no problem for capacity.

We do have the manpower for the slower more technical PCR. You'll have no problem getting a PCR test. That's why they're saying to use that instead.

Klonker

https://independent.bbvms.com/mediaclip/4259642/pthumbnail/928/522.jpg

Deleted User wrote: »

Without having watched it I’d imagine they were two meters apart.

Nope, more like a metre if even that. But one rule for the rule makers and another for us

Klonker

Arghus wrote: »

We do have the manpower for the slower more technical PCR. You'll have no problem getting a PCR test. That's why they're saying to use that instead.

There is no problem with capacity if testing. For one thing I just explained to you if PCR is required for entry to Ireland you won't be getting this test here, you'll be getting it abroad. Even if it was here, as far as we know HSE tests aren't accepted anyway which I'm assuming the manpower you mention above so your point is moot. Also, if demand is there, private companies will meet the supply. There's lot of companies carrying out private antigen and PCR tests here at the moment.

Klonker

normanoffside wrote: »

There can be no spontaneity in travel/aviation when PCR is required. If you need to travel immediately you can’t because first you have to go get a PCR test and wait for the results. This is particularly an issue for people in rural areas.
Antigen allows you to take a test at an airport lab just before checkin which is why aviation wants it so much.

NPHET have kicked the can down the road so long that it will become a moot point as everyone will soon be able to travel after they are vaccinated in a more spontaneous manner again.

Yep, took them about 5 months publish the results of this report. By the time they start another it'll be and then publish the report it'll be 2022.

Arghus

Klonker wrote: »

There is no problem with capacity if testing. For one thing I just explained to you if PCR is required for entry to Ireland you won't be getting this test here, you'll be getting it abroad. Even if it was here, as far as we know HSE tests aren't accepted anyway which I'm assuming the manpower you mention above so your point is moot.Also, if demand is there, private companies will meet the supply. There's lot of companies carrying out private antigen and PCR tests here at the moment.

Just that one sentence there. Could you clarify that?

FishOnABike

Klonker wrote: »

But somehow we'll have the manpower for the slower, more technical PCR tests for travel but not the antigen tests? And if we did allow antigen tests for travel, we'd actually be getting the test done in another country anyway, who are more than likely already using them fur a number of other destinations so should have no problem for capacity.

What value does the antigen test add? Turn around time for pre travel PCR tests are typically 24 hours from pharmacies and private test companies. I'm hardly going to be travelling at less than a day's notice. I'd prefer to get a test done a day or two before a flight rather than turn up at the airport on the day and hope the queue for testing isn't too long and miss my flight

An antigen test doesn't do away with the requirement for self isolation / quarantine or for the requirement for PCR tests on day 5 (and day 10 if not vaccinated) after arrival in Ireland.

On its own antigen testing is insufficient, with the other measures ( self isolation, quarantine, post arrival testing) antigen testing doesn't add much value

CruelSummer

FishOnABike wrote: »

What value does the antigen test add? Turn around time for pre travel PCR tests are typically 24 hours from pharmacies and private test companies. I'm hardly going to be travelling at less than a day's notice. I'd prefer to get a test done a day or two before a flight rather than turn up at the airport on the day and hope the queue for testing isn't too long and miss my flight

An antigen test doesn't do away with the requirement for self isolation / quarantine or for the requirement for PCR tests on day 5 (and day 10 if not vaccinated) after arrival in Ireland.

On its own antigen testing is insufficient, with the other measures ( self isolation, quarantine, post arrival testing) antigen testing doesn't add much value

Antigen tests could also be used for festivals, matches and other events.
I really hope they’re used in schools from next Autumn as another tool to help pick up and stop Covid cases spreading in school settings next year.

Jim_Hodge

Arghus wrote: »

Just that one sentence there. Could you clarify that?

I think he means HSE tests aren't accepted for holiday travel purposes. Didn't they say a few weeks ago that the HSE won't be paying for tests so people can go on trips?

normanoffside

Arghus wrote: »

Just that one sentence there. Could you clarify that?

HSE don’t provide a certificate just a text. That text could be easily replicated or copied so showing a text proves nothing really.

For entry to another country you need a certificate with name as per passport, Passport number, date of birth and the time in which the sample was taken. This is whether it’s a PCR or antigen test. Only private companies provide that service at present.