Covid 19 Part XXXV-956,720 ROI (5,952 deaths) 452,946 NI (3,002 deaths) (08/01) Read OP

bad2thebone

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119708086#Comment_119708086

The problem with the balance sheet is there was no balance.

Ironically a lot of restaurants who were looking for passports have closed down since.

And the majority of people who were vaccine hesitant were quite healthy and knew the risks involved in their decision.

There's definitely professional people biding their time behind the scenes to get answers. All screen shots and clips of hypocrisy are recorded for future reference.

No stone will be unturned.

Spudman_20000

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119708115#Comment_119708115

Good thread here on the rhetoric in the media, in case the usual gaslighting that it never happened comes up.

Mandates were NEVER justified, there was evidence of breakthrough infections coming from Israel as early as February 2021, along with adverse effects.

https://twitter.com/FreedomWorld_/status/1576204853390770176?t=Ln7MxST7uh9viKGqnE6KLw&s=19

bad2thebone

There was a few sides to vaccine hesitancy. Non vaccinated were shamed for not taking one for the team.

But then again I'd say 99.98% of the unvaccinated who caught covid weren't hospitalized.

Balance out the sheets and it'll show you the results.

I wonder will the unvaccinated be ever compensated?

It'll be easy to find out who wasn't vaccinated anyhow.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119708086#Comment_119708086

I dislike posting on this, because I dislike getting sucked in to long, circular arguments, and as I said before, my time is limited (but valuable). However, I'm not sure what you type is correct.

"The vaccines versus the strains in circulation at the time significantly prevented transmission" - is that true? Is a third 'significant'?

(https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/delta-variant-vaccines-protect-from-severe-disease-but-do-not-stop-all-transmission)

I don't know your age group, but my age group (which is not young) received their first dose when Delta was the dominant strain.

"However, to date, vaccination has not limited the spread of the Delta variant. A new study, which appears in The Lancet Infectious Diseases, has found that vaccination alone is not enough to stop the household transmission of the Delta variant."

(https://www.ft.com/content/d91d361b-016d-4eea-90d6-f26b1a399f88)

"Vaccines reduce risk of Delta infection in the home by about a third. UK scientists warn that unvaccinated people cannot rely on close contacts who have been jabbed to protect them"

Hopefully these articles are persuasive, though they might not suit certain agendas.

"Lots of crimes dropped during lockdown. Yet no mention of that on your one sided balance sheet." Of course crime was reduced. One of the things that people remark about the Soviet Union was that crime (robberies, homicide and other violent crime) was lower than in the US, for example - but, would you want to live there?

It's fascinating that, aside from a handful of posters on here - everyone I speak to in the real world believes that the response in Ireland to this was entirely disproportionate (including the vaccine passports). I confess, I find this very puzzling!

Doctor DooM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119708276#Comment_119708276

Everyone thought the response to Y2K was overkill too, never once taking into account that if people had done their job right, nothing would happen on the day, and the response would seem like it was overkill.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119708276#Comment_119708276

The figure you quoted from reducing transmission by 34% is within a household. So yes that is significant in that context.

Vaccine mandates were about environments with less contact.

Other studies from Sweden showed in the months after vaccination that showed

vaccine effectiveness was 89% (79 to 94; p<0·001) at 15–30 days and 66% (41 to 80; p<0·001) from day 121 onwards

SO if you're not infected you're not going to transmit it.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(22)00089-7/fulltext

And the vaccine mandates were also about reducing the risk of hospitalisation for people who did socialise in high risk environments etc and get infected.

The poster referenced an increase in a particular crime as one of the negatives on the balance sheet. So it is entirely valid therefore to mention the drop in other crimes on the balance sheet.

Also, I'm not defending all aspects of Ireland's response. But we were not the only ones who applied vaccine mandates, it wasn't something we made up. I think we should have opened up earlier especially in summers. I think there were times when Level 3 was needed not full lockdown.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119707994#Comment_119707994

Good post. Even though I got vaccinated, I thought the way ordinary people viewed the unvaccinated was very disturbing. They absolutely hated them and wanted them punished. It was very strange. The media were a disgrace throughout.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119708048#Comment_119708048

The FFG government will not sanction such an inquiry. No chance. RTE won't be allowed do one either.

They may allow a whitewash like the Mother and Baby home report.

bad2thebone

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119708351#Comment_119708351

I was listening to Newstalk now and again and I'll give Ciara credit ,she was more contentious than others during the broadcasting throughout covid.

Heard her the other morning saying she's tired of people heat shaming while the other guy, what's his name ? will follow the latest thing without question.

He's totally obedient.

Spudman_20000

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119708394#Comment_119708394

Shane Coleman? King of the bootlickers and a complete dweeb alright.

walus

I said many times that coercive measures and restrictions that were introduced to deal with the pandemic were unjust, unethical and unscientific. Weak leadership, political pressures and shady ethics are what drove us all into it. Science is about discourse, debate and transparency. What we have seen is anything but - at best propaganda, at worst tyranny.

bluedex

People are still talking about covid?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119708333#Comment_119708333

I'm actually very curious, I'd love to hear the specifics about which aspects of the measures you would not defend? Is your position based solely on timing (i.e. viral circulation rates) or were there specific measures that you did not agree with wholesale? It seems to me from many of your posts that you were very much on board with at least, most of them.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119708559#Comment_119708559

Mostly about timings.

I broadly agreed with the approach, but sometimes not the specific implementations - I think when nightclubs opened they had some pretty daft and unrealistic rules. Either open them or don't, or open them if ventilation requirements X is met \ portable filter used. Something like that.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119708617#Comment_119708617

I suspected as much.

Of course, in hindsight it's easy to argue that x measure should have been implemented at y number of cases, and that x measure should be lifted at z number of cases and so forth.

One of the things I've often wondered about this whole business, whichever side of the debate one is on, is whether lockdown and mass coercion would have even been possible if work from home was not an option, i.e. if modern communications (the internet) did not have the capability for remote meetings/work etc. I wonder what approach would have been taken in that case.

Counterfactual, sure, but worthy of contemplation.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119708657#Comment_119708657

Well not just hindsight... at the time I think politicians were trying to keep us at say Level 3 but instead of giving it a chance to kick in we were bounced into Level 5.

Yes, the working from home counter factual, would it have been possible? You would need a lot more boots on the ground to police it, checking people coming into work locations. So army or army reserve or somesuch. More buses \ car pools. And probably a different approach to rural v urban. Possible here? Not so sure. Possible in France or Italy? More likely.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119708707#Comment_119708707

Such statements paint quite the picture, and not one that I personally admire.

But, let's not derail the thread with thought experiments (no matter how interesting they are, and I think this one is but it would require a detailed discussion).

live4tkd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119708086#Comment_119708086

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119708048#Comment_119708048

A one sided balance sheet! Leave off ffs! That's all that has been presented since March 2020. I am afraid its so one sided it is starting to fall over now!

Look of course hindsight is wonderful some measures were necessary, but some were blatantly and completely stupid (antigen testing episode, bouncing us into Level 5 because Holohan was back!) in response to complete hysteria and lacking any sense but like I said there was no forum to properly debate this as media, medics social media were all wrapped up in it singing from the same hymn sheet and god help you if you weren`t!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119706625#Comment_119706625

Seriuously doubt you even looked at the data you posted because it doesnt say anything like what you claim it does. Excess deaths due to heart / circulatory conditions tied in closely with Covid deaths until last winter. That people with covid die with heart issues is not unexpected. The summer excess coincides with the heatwave and again that heart / circulatory issues occur as a result of heat is again to be expected. You manged to completely ignore that there was no excess due to heart issues last spring. Why was this?

Overall Mortality by age in the over 50-64 age group, which is by far the largest contributor to deaths in te under 65's again also followed the covid pattern, deviating over the summer gone when excess heat was the issue

There is a bizarre desperation to spread a narrative that the data does not support that is beyond bizarre. When there is an explanation that entirely explains the pattern we have seen, because it has happened before

ceadaoin.

And the vaccine mandates were also about reducing the risk of hospitalisation for people who did socialise in high risk environments etc and get infected.

if you were going to have people in pubs, restaurants you did not want them to be unvaccinated as if they did get covid - disproportionate risk of severe covid. The establishments were shut pre-vaccine. If you don't want to get the vaccine don't, but it was warranted to treat vaccinated and unvaccinated differently in such settings.

And what about people's right to make their own choice about how much risk they were willing to take? Do you also support banning people who don't get the flu vaccine from society? The covid ones are about as effective or probably worse tbh. They never prevented transmission to the extent that vaccine passports were justified, talk about rewriting history. It was all nonsense based in hysteria, not facts. If it was actually about protecting people then you should have just banned the elderly or those with underlying conditions from socializing. You probably wouldn't agree with that though would you?

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119709107#Comment_119709107

I have provided the facts about vaccine effectiveness in the period when vaccine mandates were rolled out. It wasn't just about preventing transmission, but about reducing the risk of hospital cases from people who did get it. And also as noted, the vaccines significantly reduced your chances of getting infected and of infecting others. Compared with those vaccinated, you were twice as likely to get infected if unvaccinated up to 6 months from vaccination. Earlier the difference is even greater.

Unable to respond to the facts, you just shout "Nonsense based on hysteria". That isn't a counter argument. It is a rant. If you disagree with the vaccine mandates that is one thing, but to call it nonsense based on hysteria is without merit or foundation.

The comparison with flu is surely about the strain covid places on hospital services.

So you really going to double down on the #JustTheFluBro?

People had a choice to get vaccinated. You don't have a choice to be elderly.

Within bounds, people should be able to make their own choices about risks. But when you have numbers of people making choices that put strain on hospital services, and those people expect to be treated, it is entirely legitimate for government to step in. Another factor is that these are places of work.

bad2thebone

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119709107#Comment_119709107

The narrative is blown out of the water now. Like back in history the people who were shaming others and suggesting camps and worse for the dirty people will be remembered for it.

They are just as bad as previous dictatorships and their follower's. Mind you it was a huge percentage of people who were all for camps and shutting people out of society.

Irish celebs and influencers were at it too. As well as senior civil servants.

Looking back I'd say they'll hope it'll be buried. But I'm afraid not, there's a huge amount of screen shots and videos saved to show them their disgusting insights.

Goldengirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119709107#Comment_119709107

I don't know why you are getting so aerated in your post.

It was not a question of just keeping elderly or vulnerable safe but also to try to get through the antivax agenda which tried to convince people that they did not need a vaccine to stay safe. The levels of unvaccinated ending up in hospital and during Alpha and Delta, dying, pretty much showed that the primary vaccination course was and still is necessary.

This is not hysteria. This is borne out by data from hospitalisations and vaccinations all over the world, that have been shared here on this thread over the timeline.

People dissecting old reports now are just trying to rewrite the story.

Everything has changed since vaccination, and that includes the virus which is still mutating to evade treatments.

There are people who refuse to acknowledge that we as a country did not do badly at all through the pandemic.

A lot of people were kept safe and in employment and others were paid to stay home.

Yes some businesses eventually went to the wall. And people died, in nursing homes and in hospital alone.

Unfortunately this happened everywhere around the world as in a major world event, a pandemic? In some countries it was many multiples worse and they are still doing worse economically

Our hospitals in major cities were swamped with the worst cases but more use could have been made of the private sector and less acute hospitals to treat other conditions I do agree.

Nightclubs open or not open.. should have just bit the bullet, one way or the other.

Outdoor events should have been allowed once people were generally vaccinated.

I did not agree with vaccine passports keeping people out of restaurants and clubs but also not right to say to vulnerable people that they should spend all pandemic shielding because of someone else's choice for themselves.

How is that fair?

Most other people would be fine if they picked an infection up, the main ones not would be immunocompromised, elderly and unvaccinated, so there was no hysteria, just hyped up by those who did not want to accept that reality.

Also on the post about excess deaths related to cardiac disease and illness, covid infection has been shown to raise risks by multiples in the first months post infection and this risk reduces but persists for 1 year post infection, and is found to be higher than any other viral infection, including flu.

This could be another reason in a long line of reasons, why that excess death rate is slow to normalise.

Goldengirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119708276#Comment_119708276

Might be the people YOU are speaking to, very subjective 😉

crossman47

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119709182#Comment_119709182

That's an excellent summary. I have largely given up on this debate because there are so many after the event attempts to criticise decisions made in real time. For example, people still talk about delayed diagnoses. These were caused by Covid and nothing else. If Covid had been allowed run riot, they would have been delayed for much longer as the hospital system would have been in chaos. Restrictions were necessary and it was important to persuade, if not coerce, people to get vaccinated. For me the debate is over. There were failures but by and large we did well.

walus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119708885#Comment_119708885

Official records show that heatwave in UK lasted from 17-19 July and 9-15 August. While it is expected that more deaths occurred during that time the effect has been described as insignificant when it comes to total amount of unexplained excess deaths and the pattern of those deaths that transpires. Are you saying that two weeks of heatwave caused say 20 weeks of unexplained deaths some of which occurred before the heatwaves actually came?

There is consistency between those graphs and information from other sources about an unnatural level of heart and circulatory deaths in UK, US and other countries. The likes of Switzerland, Norway, Finland, Ireland, Denmark, Netherlands, Austria etc are also experiencing unexplained deaths. The issue is well known and has been occurring for months now. The root cause of this is still unknown though. There are very few countries that break this pattern and interestingly Sweden is one of them. Over 16 months that they have experienced virtually no excess deaths, unlike their neighbours.

The desperation here is indeed very bizarre. It is more to do however with hopeless attempts to downplay the fact that people of all ages keep on dying unexpectedly. The heatwaves and other ridiculous reasons provided in support are laughable to say the least. 

Goldengirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119709466#Comment_119709466

You are showing desperation to put it down to some other cause than the heatwave, and the increase of cardiac incidence , which you have highlighted yourself , which maybe post Covid infection...

https://www.news-medical.net/news/20220929/Study-offers-insights-into-how-COVID-19-damages-the-heart.aspx

Give us your reason(s) why you think it is still high instead of ignoring or trashing posts giving some explanation .

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119708276#Comment_119708276

is that true? Is a third 'significant'?

but, would you want to live there?

I confess, I find this very puzzling!

I'm actually very curious

I'm sorry, but the amount of JAQ'ing in those two posts is off the scale, you could be a bit less obvious about it.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119709346#Comment_119709346

At the same time its fair to say that Omicron changed everything. I was double vaccinated and 1 day away from getting the 1st booster and I caught Covid-Omicron just before Xmas. I was lucky and got it very mild. So did the rest of the family. I am pretty sure the earlier strains would have floored me. Omicron was the game changer and continues to be. It drastically reduced the risk of hospitalisation. And most of the population got it. It is why people under 60 are not turning up for the booster.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119710342#Comment_119710342

I'm not sure what you are implying there? But how else does one engage in debate without asking questions? Isn't that how dialogue works?

Instead of addressing the points, you criticise my words. Good job kid, keep it up - you'll go far.

At least Odyssey actually answers the questions - you just come in with attitude and are not worth replying to (i.e. a waste of my valuable time).