Covid 19 Part XXXV-956,720 ROI (5,952 deaths) 452,946 NI (3,002 deaths) (08/01) Read OP

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119740334#Comment_119740334

The R for SARS-COV2 later variants was estimated at 12-20 in unvaccinated/uninfected population.

The real world R post vaccination (and with everyone else infected and with some antibodies) with everything open hovers at about 1.

What "magic" causes that drop in R?

Why does infectivity drop most soonest after vaccination?

Why do boosters reduce infection rates in those that receive them?

If you're going to argue "mountains of data" you have to be prepared to understand what that data means rather than ranting and raving about it.

Use the data to answer the above in a coherent fashion, if you can.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119740389#Comment_119740389

Herman Cain says hello ;)

I see the crank websites have fully latched onto this infection statement.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119740389#Comment_119740389

100%. If a virus that is deadly to young healthy people arrives, we are screwed. We will have tens of thousands of deaths FROM - not WITH - the virus before anyone does anything. The trust is completely gone for me, and for many like me. I've always had faith in the medical establishment - not criticising individual medics mind you - but not anymore. Being able to go into a supermarket with thousands of other people, and with the likes of Intel and McDonalds full steam ahead while not being able to do click and collect at a corner shop was the last straw for me.

And we failed spectacularly in the one place where it would have really made a difference - the care homes.

It was absolute nonsense. Nothing to do with keeping people safe.

And I'm not sure we can agree on the seriousness of COVID. Many still think it's a death sentence, or act as if it is.

And as for the hysteria around monkeypox - absolutely insane.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119740393#Comment_119740393

R hovers around 1? Really???? If by "hover" you mean "swings wildly" then yeah. At that point all your criteria were met for having R hover around 1. There is nothing to say we won't have a similar spike at some point in the future - although with people losing interest in getting tested we are unlikely to notice except in hospital admissions.

Goldengirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119740334#Comment_119740334

Again I disagree .Look when the study was. Had that age group been fully vaccinated and boosted at that time ? It doesn't mention boosters at all . In fact it only mentions in regards to checking to see if antibody levels are waning with the specific antibody tests to see if you need a top up booster which they discuss as preventing illness , not infection .

The vaccines have had a massive impact on Covid which was KILLING PEOPLE in massive numbers , unlike flu or any other virus around before . There us 'mountains of evidence" to show this , unlike what you are claiming in your post there . If you gave these mountains of evidence to counter this , where is it?

Yes , there is still a lot of infection around despite the vaccines , and the fact that Omicron is better at evading the vaccines but not causing severe illness is something that has been flagged and discussed by everyone .

To say that we blindly follow whatever we are told is untrue . You only have to look at threads like this and the Vaccine thread to see that many questions and discussions on the subject have been ongoing . Following research studies and trials . Looking at data from everywhere .

Don't remember you contributing much but maybe you were following, who knows?

There are new variants of Omicron around now eg XBB in Singapore which are causing extreme concern as they are mutating again to evade the present vaccines further if they become dominant worldwide , so it is hoped that the bivalent booster will buy us time before we find that the vaccine in its present form is really not effective . Until then at least immunity from Omicron infection and vaccines might get us over a winter wave , if that happens .

But saying it's useless now and always was is just fingers in the ears stuff...

So now you're done.

Stormyteacup

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119740190#Comment_119740190

But did it reduce the risk though? Science showed efficacy waned - enough that many vaccinated in July/August ‘21 were as likely to infect the hairdresser or waiter in November/December as someone unvaccinated. Yet the government persisted in vilifying the unvaccinated.

There was a small risk that someone unvaccinated would take up a hospital bed should they become seriously ill with Covid, but people take up hospital beds for all sorts of choices they made - separating the unvaccinated, once the science was clear about waning, was completely wrong. The hairdresser and waiter were protected from serious illness if (needed?) infected, if they had opted for vaccination.

And although not entirely the fault of vaccine manufacturers, if they had claimed the vaccine would ‘halt’ transmission then that would be one thing. But they claimed it would stop transmission, which led to months-long debates about herd immunity through vaccination and what percentage of the population would need to be vaccinated to achieve herd immunity, when all along it was a unicorn and they knew it, but stood by and watched experts debate about a unicorn;

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/covid-19-herd-immunity-needs-90-of-people-to-be-vaccinated-hse-says-1.4628150

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/health-pharma/europe-can-achieve-herd-immunity-against-covid-19-by-august-biontech-1.4550049

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/herd-immunity-in-ireland-is-almost-impossible-without-a-vaccine-1.4247736

Colm Henry in July 2021;

“What we thought initially, based on much cruder estimates a year ago, based on the wild type Covid we were dealing with last year, it was 60 to 70 per cent of the population [that would reach herd immunity].

“But because we are dealing with a much more transmissible variant, to reach that concept of herd immunity , which every country is far away from yet, the estimate has gone up to 85 to 90 per cent.”

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/covid-19-outlook-for-coming-four-weeks-uncertain-and-dangerous-says-nolan-1.4627625

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119740438#Comment_119740438

I never said that the vaccines didn't decrease serious illness and death. I think the data is clear that they did. What I AM saying is the vaccines did little or nothing to prevent INFECTION and TRANSMISSION. The data is even clearer on that. It's really simple - if they actually prevented it we would have had no omicron surge. And to say they worked but the virus mutated around it - well that's what coronaviruses and flu viruses do !!!! Unlike say smallpox for example, they mutate at a much faster rate. Until you have a vaccine that prevents INFECTION and TRANSMISSION against ALL variants, you DO NOT have an effective vaccine against INFECTION and TRANSMISSION. Therefore you are going to get more spikes and R most definitely will NOT hover around 1 as a previous poster alluded to.

Omicron came out of left field; there is nothing to say the next variant wont either, and render a vaccine designed for Omicron useless against INFECTION and TRANSMISSION; in fact it's guaranteed to be, since most people will have had Omicron.

It may be that COVID has used up it's space for mutations already and Omicron is it's end state; but we don't know this yet.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119740443#Comment_119740443

Yes, of course it reduced the risk. Rather important for those 6 months before Omicron arrived during which vaccine mandates were in place and Delta was in circulation. Not everybody was vaccinated at the same pace. The mandates were in place in high risk environments, the more people vaccinated the lower the risk.

The unvaccinated were more likely to end up in hospital, ICU and more likely to spread the virus.

A small risk - from a highly infectious disease, translates into numbers going to hospital. It has always been a numbers game.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119740436#Comment_119740436

Well, apart from misunderstanding R (R of 1.1 can lead to spikes, that spike is significantly less than R in an unvaccinated population...), I asked you to come with data, and as predicted, you sh*t yourself over it.

Here's the R data from the UK, take a look at the averages before and after vaccination.

The R value and growth rate - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)

Take a look at the numbers after full reopening with vaccination vs. in lockdown pre-vaccination.

Come with the data.

Goldengirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119740468#Comment_119740468

Nah.. you didn't say above , you said they were " useless " , and that the vaccines were worse than the flu vaccines , which we all know is just untrue . Flu vaccines never protect against ALL INFECTIONS AND VARIANTS . This year alone we have a quadrivalent vaccine hoping to protect against 4 strains commonly circulating in SEA and Southern Hemisphere for the last few months , and that may have mutated by the time it gets here . But it is still hoped that some part of it will work to at least reduce severity of infection if not infection, full stop.

And yet it is classed an effective vaccine .

And flu is not half the illness Covid is, in infectivity transmission or disease , don't equate them .

Omicron is mutating constantly . There is an article on the convergence of Omicron mutations in the New Atlas which is not heartening at all. ( My poor tech is not allowing me to post the link directly but here's the link address ...newatlas.com/science/omicron-mutates-convergence)

I think we should be grateful we have gotten this far with the vaccines we have and let's hope that the scientists can keep working to find an all encompassing solution.

Goldengirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119740436#Comment_119740436

But but ..people don't believe that hospital admissions are an indicator either .

Sure they are all just admitted with incidental infections , aren't they , " With Covid" not " of Covid " ? 🤨/sarcasm

Johnboy1951

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119735424#Comment_119735424

I said people were "coerced and shamed to take them even before they are out of their trials." Thankfully most of that has stopped now, but I suppose it could be brought back again.

In status reports filed recently with the US federal trials registry (clinicaltrials.gov) between February and May, both companies extended the dates by which the trials will be completed, Pfizer by nine months, from 15 May 2023 to 8 February 2024. Moderna’s expected completion date is delayed from 27 October to 29 December 2022.

https://www.bmj.com/content/378/bmj.o1731

Do you still maintain you are correct and the BMJ is incorrect?

PeadarCo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119741907#Comment_119741907

Phase 3 trials had been completed. Or put it another way all necessary trials for them to be approved for the general public had taken place. All medicines are reviewed after they are approved. Its important to remember they are multiple phases to testing which includes post market review.

Take this quote from the article

"Pfizer indicated in its trial protocol that individual participant data would be made available two years after study completion."

Pfizer have pushed this back and remember the release of this is to independent researchers and not regulatory bodies. It also unclear what exact trials the article is talking about on top of that.

Your link doesn't say that the vaccines hadn't been tested or received the relevant regulatory approval. Again there are different stages in every trial. Not all of them have to be completed or can be completed before a product is authorised for the general public.

I think your post is classic Dunning Krueger and confirmation bias. I don't think you actually understand the article or the regulatory process in general. If you look at the top of the article "intended for Medical professionals only". Its intended for a very specific audience who havd a better knowledge of the area. It's also a warning for lay people that they may not be able to understand the topic. This is not unusual for any area of academia.

The idea that the Covid vaccines didn't undergo the relevant tests is a conspiracy theory simple as. Stand back for a second. These vaccines have been approved independently the heath authorities world wide. That's at least thousands of people that are knowledgeable in the area, have independently looked at the relevant data, understand the approval process(which will vary slightly country to country) and have decided these are safe. Are you honestly saying all these thousands of people are part of one gigantic conspiracy/were fooled? Because that's what your argument boils down to.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119741907#Comment_119741907

People were not coerced to take them in Ireland. You are posting blatant falsehoods now.

Nobody had "force or threats" applied to them to get vaccinated.

Silentcorner

Varadkar alluded to the fact that the Irish were subject to brutal lock down tactics in the Spring/Summer of 2021 to drive the vaccination rate.

That is control, the government forced restrictions on the population when there was absolutely no danger to the health system.

Remember in August 2021 Minister for Health said "hell was about to be unleashed"(about the spread of the virus) and we were all in danger.

Admittedly, we didn't go as far as Canada but lets be honest here, whose leader called the unvaccinated "racist/misogynists etc", Canada is in control of an authoritarian leader...we don't want to be copying China, North Korea, Canada, California etc...highly controlled societies, do we?

How many health workers were sacked in the US/UK/Europe? In the middle of a pandemic...

We imposed restrictions on unvaccinated children!!! That is sick!!

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119742671#Comment_119742671

Is there a conspiracy theory in there?

Are there any actual facts?

The post is just a diatribe.

If people hadn't been vaccinated, when the next covid wave hit, the consequences for the health service would be severe. See Hong Kong.

So why do think it was done?

Do you accept that vaccination provides significant protection against severe covid?

JP Liz V1

From the Mirror

Health officials have issued a stark warning over the latest sub-variant of Omicron to be detected as it spreads across the globe.

‘Omicron Spawn,’ which is also known as BF.7 and BA.5.2.1.7 was included in the latest update from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

The CDC warned on Friday that the newest strain can evade all existing immune responses to Covid-19 as well as vaccines, as many countries prepare for a difficult winter.

Silentcorner

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119742704#Comment_119742704

If you think there is a conspiracy theory in there at least have intellectual honesty to point it out rather than using your passive aggressive tone that merely seeks too undermine my opinion.

I absolutely accept that the annual flu shot gives protection to the weaker immune systems in our society, which in turn helps the health system cope during flu season.

Do you accept that children and people with healthy immune systems have no need to take a flu shot every flu season?

Doc07

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119742671#Comment_119742671

What restrictions were imposed on unvaccinated children in Ireland?

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119743542#Comment_119743542

I asked you why you think the vaccines were rolled out as they were.

I don't know why you are asking me about flu. I didn't mention flu and this is the covid thread.

Do you accept that vaccination provides significant protection against severe covid?

You seem unwilling or unable to answer these questions on this forum for some reason, which is surprising, as this is the Covid forum.

So how about some intellectual honesty from yourself.

JP Liz V1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119743536#Comment_119743536

Did you miss me

Why can we not post anything negative here, bad news here etc.,

fun loving criminal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119744015#Comment_119744015

People like sticking their heads in the sand.

DLink

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119744763#Comment_119744763

It's not sticking your head in the sand at all, it's a case of take your chances and roll the dice, live your live, something will kill you in the end.

People are getting on with it, so what if you catch the spawn of omicron?

If you're a Vulnerable, take care of yourself, just don't go banging on Mehole's or Leo's door begging them to lock the rest of us down in order for you to feel safe.

Micky 32

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119744782#Comment_119744782

What the mirror reported isn’t exactly true. That’s the problem, misinformation Sure we all stick our heads in the sand for all sorts of things that’s how we get on with our lives.

Hospitalisations seemed to have stabilised, even a reduction in the last couple of days.

fun loving criminal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119744899#Comment_119744899

Jesus Christ, can we get past this pure and utter shite with people having concerns and the anti-whatever going around saying we want a lockdown please?

DLink

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119744993#Comment_119744993

Frankly, no.

You have to keep banging on the anti-lockdown, anti-restriction, and anti-mask drums in case some bright spark gets the idea that we're all OK with being locked down again.

There are plenty of people who still want to weld us into our houses or strap N95 masks on our faces, and I'm not OK with that, why should I keep quiet and let them have all the fun?

Does it annoy you that I'm going against the "for us all" mantra, and that I want to live my life free of restrictions, to hell with the consequences?

dominatinMC

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119744782#Comment_119744782

Read my post (very slowly maybe to make sure) and you'll see that's not what I said. I've dropped in and out of this thread (and the ones preceding it) for a long time, and read plenty of "bad news" stories. I didn't object to them. What I take issue with is a certain cohort of posters who exclusively post hyperbolic, OTT, misleading Covid stories - often from very questionable sources.

Some don't like to challenge the narrative that Covid is an all-encompassing killer disease. I also know there are those who deny it's a threat at all. The reality is somewhere in the middle - deadly for some (a minority even), an inconvenience for the rest. But just because we all don't revel in the misery does not mean we "bury our heads in the sand".

Goldengirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119745207#Comment_119745207

I agree its somewhere in the middle but nobody here including me , or you, can tell people what to post if its valid Covid stuff as it's the main Covid thread .

There are sxxt variants out there alright but they may never become dominant and if they do we might have enough immunity from infection / vaccines to prevent serious disease .

The worry is of course , that they will evade that immunity and will be more severe .

Do I think they will ? I don't know .

Am I going to lose sleep over it ? No ..goodnight 😘

ceadaoin.

Im sure if we obsessively tested for cold and flu every year, down to the variant, and anyone in hospital etc, it would seem like a non stop pandemic. It's time to start treating covid the same way we did any other respiratory illness in times past. Yes, sometimes there are more severe seasons etc but that's just life. For the most part, it's over. It's what I'm hearing from people I know in the medical profession anyway. I feel bad for people who are still living in fear of covid, despite being boosted etc. I know one and it's at the point where it's straining his marriage and family relations because he just wont go anywhere, hes still afraid and shames his wife for socialising. He refused to attend his own father's milestone birthday because the young people there were at school/college and therefore disease vectors. it's very sad but he won't hear sense. This is the result of the non stop fear mongering, some people won't ever be able to go back 😔

jackboy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119747237#Comment_119747237

That’s just mental illness. Covid really made it obvious who was suffering from mental illness. Of course there are the few vulnerable that must protect themselves but any healthy person still taking measures is mentally ill. We still have people spraying their desks with IPA each morning at work.