Covid 19 Part XXXV-956,720 ROI (5,952 deaths) 452,946 NI (3,002 deaths) (08/01) Read OP

Vicxas

Apparently people in their 20's wont get their first shot until late August/ early September. Cutting it very fine to the start of college

hmmm

Vicxas wrote: »

Apparently people in their 20's wont get their first shot until late August/ early September. Cutting it very fine to the start of college

Young people are casualties of what I consider to be an excessively risk averse approach to vaccines. We’re dragging this out for months longer than necessary, and I think it could potentially lead to significant levels of apathy towards getting vaccinated. There will be multiple countries in Europe finished vaccinations and back to normal while we’re still dealing with portals and restrictions.

marno21

14 in ICU down from 22 this time last week.

Huge decline. At this rate it’ll nearly empty out in July

Having serious restrictions in place with less than 10 in ICU despite 300 cases per day for 3 months is very difficult to justify.

TefalBrain

political analyst wrote: »

This week, the Restaurants Association of Ireland went to the High Court to seek leave for a challenge to the ban on its members having indoor dining.

Given that those restaurants will be allowed to have indoor dining from 5 July, what's the point in starting a case now?

Because as anyone who runs a business will tell you those extra new weeks between now and 5th of July could be make or break for them and their employees.

Micky 32

hmmm wrote: »

Young people are casualties of what I consider to be an excessively risk averse approach to vaccines. We’re dragging this out for months longer than necessary, and I think it could potentially lead to significant levels of apathy towards getting vaccinated. There will be multiple countries in Europe finished vaccinations and back to normal while we’re still dealing with portals and restrictions.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40317815.html

Looks like it won’t be until November the 20’s will be fully vaccinated.

An Ciarraioch

marno21 wrote: »

14 in ICU down from 22 this time last week.

Huge decline. At this rate it’ll nearly empty out in July

Having serious restrictions in place with less than 10 in ICU despite 300 cases per day for 3 months is very difficult to justify.

It did say in the Sunday Independent a few weeks ago that the existing ICU cases then were almost exclusively in the unvaccinated cohort, so no reason why the figure couldn't fall to zero in the next few weeks, when under-50s would largely be able to recover.

Stormyteacup

ArthurDayne wrote: »

You’ll know from my posts that I am no advocate of the lockdown — but I do think (in my humble opinion) that, while NPHET are certainly not beyond reproach or fallibility, we need to be careful in how we characterise their role. I’d agree that there has been a constitutional concern in my mind over the way in which NPHET has in a de facto sense become a significant determiner of public policy and far-reaching incursions into civil liberties and freedoms — but I think we need to be clear that this is a product of how the government has interacted with NPHET and the manner in which they have applied their advice. It is not by NPHET’s design.

It is not for NPHET to say “OK the government is likely to take this advice to the letter so we should include warnings about the socioeconomic effects of this advice that could have multigenerational adverse impact”. That is not their remit, nor should it be. Their remit in the context of Covid is to advise the government on how to stop it — it is the government’s job to translate that advice into holistic national policy. The problem (for me anyway) is that the government has not applied it holistically, but rather has for the most part hidden behind it to avoid nuanced thinking in the measures. It’s easy for the government to say “right, here is what the public health experts so this is what we will do” — even if that tacitly is also a way of saying “we won’t do anything to make that advice more sustainable from the perspective of public policy”. Furthermore, it gives them a kind of scapegoat in public discourse, where Tony Holohan & Co. become the faces of lockdown, rather than the actual government who imposed it.

Basically, I guess what I’m saying is not to let the government successfully deflect its responsibilities to NPHET — a group who I think for the most part have acted in good faith (though again, not beyond reproach) as regards the context of what they are tasked with doing.

Agree with much of this - particularly that it wasn't by design that NPHET ‘become a significant determiner of public policy and far-reaching incursions into civil liberties and freedoms’.

However, as things progressed and it became evident just how much our government would defer to NPHET (members have commented how much they were taken aback at the unquestioning implementation of their recommendations) - imo they then had the responsibility to temper their advice and consider the consequences outside their initial remit. You say their remit was to advise the government on how to stop Covid, but initially their advice was to be on how to ‘flatten the curve’. The process is dynamic and science changed, and vaccines came along, understood.

It’s a fine line of disagreement. Absolutely the government was absent. The power was handed to NPHET, but they were cognisant of that and aware of their direct influence on the mindset of the people in this country (as the government had removed itself). They publicly castigated, shamed and alarmed people - they accepted their role as ‘de facto’ determiners of policy and have little regard for being questioned. How would our de facto leaders be held to account? It’s not as if they need concern themselves with voters. They found themselves unchallenged in a crisis response and allowed an unbalanced direction of policy. That bit is on them.

Tyrone212

Micky 32 wrote: »

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40317815.html

Looks like it won’t be until November the 20’s will be fully vaccinated.

Plenty of 20 years old were holding off going abroad until vaccinated. August is the last month many of them can do that. That's not looking possible now. I can't blame them for going on ahead now.

adam240610

Tyrone212 wrote: »

Plenty of 20 years old were holding off going abroad until vaccinated. August is the last month many of them can do that. That's not looking possible now. I can't blame them for going on ahead now.

Yeah this is my last summer before full time work, I can't wait anymore and everyone I know at risk is vaccinated, I'll have to settle for pcr tests and antigen tests to travel

Always_Running

This week compared to last. Good to see the continued progress.

120 fewer cases (2368 v 2248)
10 fewer in hospital (58 v 48)
8 fewer in ICU ( 22 v 14)

Atlantic Dawn

Tyrone212 wrote: »

Plenty of 20 years old were holding off going abroad until vaccinated. August is the last month many of them can do that. That's not looking possible now. I can't blame them for going on ahead now.

If they test positive will they be allowed board the return flight to Ireland? Can't imagine many hotels in the country they are holidaying in welcoming them to stay until they produce a negative result, they could live on the beach for 10 days I suppose.

marno21

marno21 wrote: »

14 in ICU down from 22 this time last week.

Huge decline. At this rate it’ll nearly empty out in July

Having serious restrictions in place with less than 10 in ICU despite 300 cases per day for 3 months is very difficult to justify.

You are of course right. I would argue that there is no justification for any restrictions as things stand. But the problem, as always, is that there's just no opposition or pressure coming from anywhere. I just can't see how the restrictions ever go. In the US the CDC were put under massive pressure from the Republican Party and from a lot of the media. I read the other day about senators pushing for the masks to be scrapped on public transport and planes. So we can expect that pressure to increase over the next few weeks. But nothing in Ireland.

Tyrone212

Tyrone212 wrote: »

Plenty of 20 years old were holding off going abroad until vaccinated. August is the last month many of them can do that. That's not looking possible now. I can't blame them for going on ahead now.

I think I get where the different view points come from. Two generations ago young people only went abroad to emigrate. One generation ago they may have gone for a working holiday or else waited until they were working and could afford it. Current generation need a holiday abroad before starting work.

We all want normal freedoms back, however foreign holidays are not some sort of necessity

eagle eye

TefalBrain wrote:

Because as anyone who runs a business will tell you those extra new weeks between now and 5th of July could be make or break for them and their employees.

It's two weeks, I doubt there's many that it makes that much difference to.

Micky 32

RTE update on the travel cert:

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.rte.ie/amp/1229072/

“ Speaking in Cork, Micheál Martin said while 19 July is a number of weeks away, Ireland is "certainly on target to be a part of the EU framework in terms of the Digital Covid Certificate, which I think is an important milestone".

He said it also gives that "things are getting better" for the aviation industry.

A new study from the European Centre for Disease Prevention and Control has found that the risk of in-flight transmission of the virus is "very low" however the ECDC said it "cannot be excluded".

The finding was made based on evidence from contact tracing studies as part of an updated Covid-19 aviation health safety protocol.

The Taoiseach said the finding was "very interesting" and he said it gives move confidence ahead of the introduction of the Digital Covid Certificate.”

DebDynamite

With regards to ICU, isn’t the average stay 2/3 months or something like that... so if someone is admitted to ICU having tested for positive for Covid, are they considered recovered after 2 weeks, or it is only if there’s a death or a discharge that the numbers will show one less patient in ICU?

Amirani

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I think I get where the different view points come from. Two generations ago young people only went abroad to emigrate. One generation ago they may have gone for a working holiday or else waited until they were working and could afford it. Current generation need a holiday abroad before starting work.

We all want normal freedoms back, however foreign holidays are not some sort of necessity

Lots of things aren't necessities - going to a restaurant, a pub, hanging out with friends or "normal freedoms" included. That doesn't mean that people don't or shouldn't want to do them.

It's entirely reasonable that young people would want to spend some time abroad before starting work. Comparing it to emigration is nonsense tbh.

Klonker

Deleted User wrote: »

I think I get where the different view points come from. Two generations ago young people only went abroad to emigrate. One generation ago they may have gone for a working holiday or else waited until they were working and could afford it. Current generation need a holiday abroad before starting work.

We all want normal freedoms back, however foreign holidays are not some sort of necessity

Just because something isn't a necessity doesn't mean it shouldn't be allowed. Could argue we should all be locked in our houses and giving rations of Potatos and milk as anything more are not necessities.

If vulnerable are vaccinated why should 20 year olds not be allowed travel? NIAC advice was the 1 in about 200,000 chance of a bad reaction to AZ vaccine is only slightly lower than chance of ending up in ICU from covid, nevermind dieing. Yet it is still too dangerous for them to travel to areas with similar rates of virus because they're 'not protected'. What's even funnier is people will say it's to protect the elderly vaccinated as vaccines aren't 100% yet these elderly people aren't being discouraged from travelling.

It's not proportionate at all and you'd have to wonder are any other EU countries having such internal discussions. I highly doubt it as most are subsidising tests to facilitate travel for unvaccinated. I never seen anyone on here argue unvaccinated shouldn't travel after 19th July but as soon as NPHET mention it they come on agreeing with it. If NPHET came out and said 2 + 2 = 5 some on here wouldnt disagree.

corkie

DebDynamite wrote: »

With regards to ICU, isn’t the average stay 2/3 months or something like that... so if someone is admitted to ICU having tested for positive for Covid, are they considered recovered after 2 weeks, or it is only if there’s a death or a discharge that the numbers will show one less patient in ICU?

It would depend on the individual patient + underlining conditions + how badly effected by Covid.

"Some people may leave the ICU after a few days. Others may need to stay in the ICU for months or may deteriorate there."
https://www2.hse.ie/conditions/intensive-care.html

Klonker

Klonker wrote: »

Just because something isn't a necessity doesn't mean it shouldn't be allowed. Could argue we should all be locked in our houses and giving rations of Potatos and milk as anything more are not necessities.

If vulnerable are vaccinated why should 20 year olds not be allowed travel? NIAC advice was the 1 in about 200,000 chance of a bad reaction to AZ vaccine is only slightly lower than chance of ending up in ICU from covid, nevermind dieing. Yet it is still too dangerous for them to travel to areas with similar rates of virus because they're 'not protected'. What's even funnier is people will say it's to protect the elderly vaccinated as vaccines aren't 100% yet these elderly people aren't being discouraged from travelling.

It's not proportionate at all and you'd have to wonder are any other EU countries having such internal discussions. I highly doubt it as most are subsidising tests to facilitate travel for unvaccinated. I never seen anyone on here argue unvaccinated shouldn't travel after 19th July but as soon as NPHET mention it they come on agreeing with it. If NPHET came out and said 2 + 2 = 5 some on here wouldnr disagree.

It’s more the sense that 20 year olds are somehow deprived by not getting a holiday before work

DebDynamite

corkie wrote: »

It would depend on the individual patient + underlining conditions + how badly effected by Covid.

"Some people may leave the ICU after a few days. Others may need to stay in the ICU for months or may deteriorate there."
https://www2.hse.ie/conditions/intensive-care.html

So say someone positive for Covid was in ICU for a month or more, are they still considered a Covid patient after that time, as they would still be returning a positive swab but would not be infectious? Do they only got removed from the numbers if they get discharged or die?

Stheno

corkie wrote: »

It would depend on the individual patient + underlining conditions + how badly effected by Covid.

"Some people may leave the ICU after a few days. Others may need to stay in the ICU for months or may deteriorate there."
https://www2.hse.ie/conditions/intensive-care.html

Typically 17 days from this article

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40203299.html%3ftype=amp

Klonker

Deleted User wrote: »

It’s more the sense that 20 year olds are somehow deprived by not getting a holiday before work

Well they are being deprived compared to their EU peers and for no good. Our EU neighbours I assume are not discouraging or discriminating against unvaccinated people since they are allowing antigen testing as well as subsidising or even fully coveraging the cost of these tests. Ireland are not going to subsidise tests here, either antigen or PCR and I doubt EU countries are going to subsidise the PCR tests unvaccinated will need before returning to Ireland as Ireland will be the only country requiring PCR as far as we know.

On top of that from what we're hearing from NPHET they'll advice more barriers on unvaccinated travellers, I assume quarentine on return. If government introduce such advice is anyones guess.

I think/hope there'll be carnage at international airports when tourists turn up for flights to Ireland with antigen tests only to be denied or when they're expected to hand over an unsubsidised €50 for an antigen test before leaving Ireland. Only then will the EU intervene.

I doubt the ECDC announcing that air travel has minimum virus transmission will make much difference from NPHETs stance, I doubt they'll even look at the report. But I'm sure you think all this is reasonable and proportionate.

An Ciarraioch

DebDynamite wrote: »

So say someone positive for Covid was in ICU for a month or more, are they still considered a Covid patient after that time, as they would still be returning a positive swab but would not be infectious? Do they only got removed from the numbers if they get discharged or die?

If a patient still has Covid, but no longer needs intensive care, they still count in the overall figure - i.e. 48 Covid cases in hospital, and 14 in ICU would still be counted as 48 in total, but ICU falls to 13, it's a subset of the bigger figure.

CalamariFritti

Deleted User wrote: »

It’s more the sense that 20 year olds are somehow deprived by not getting a holiday before work

Anyone who isn't allowed to do whatever the hell they want to do is being deprived. It doesnt hang on whether you or anyone deems it to be necessary or even reasonable. Its why we call ourselves free societies.

And yes that excludes things that harm others like for example going around murdering people. But where we are now with vaccines and everything that 'harming others' element is wearing extremely thin when it comes to covid.

In fact it being a threat to public health (as opposed to individual health which will always be there to a small degree) has long ceased. A national emergency does no longer exist (if it ever truly did).

Silentcorner

Well, actually there is a health emergency...

There's about a million people on Waiting lists, the highest in the history of the state, there is going to be 10,000 s of people who will die prematurely over the next 1-5 years...the system was struggling with waiting lists when the numbers were 400,000 - 500,000...I believe the figure in the UK is 5 million, just to put that in perspective.

We have done this for a virus with a death rate that thankfully was much smaller than we were initially were led to believe.

Sobit1964

eagle eye wrote: »

It's two weeks, I doubt there's many that it makes that much difference to.

Remind us which business you own again?

It seems likes there’s a cohort here (and to be honest - in political and health circles) that are of the opinion “we’re protected, we can do this, young people aren’t so stop that, they don’t need it”.

Serious stench of pulling the ladder up. Posters thinking two weeks are nothing when it comes to a business surviving or not, posters thinking that the ability to leave the country is a “luxury” that under 40s shouldn’t feel the need for. We’re deep through the looking glass here. Freedoms are being denied to certain age groups and there’s a decent minority of people happy to keep denying freedoms to 20/30 somethings who are denied vaccines because Covid isn’t dangerous enough to them. Bizarre situation.

Wolf359f

Deleted User wrote: »

It seems likes there’s a cohort here (and to be honest - in political and health circles) that are of the opinion “we’re protected, we can do this, young people aren’t so stop that, they don’t need it”.

Serious stench of pulling the ladder up. Posters thinking two weeks are nothing when it comes to a business surviving or not, posters thinking that the ability to leave the country is a “luxury” that under 40s shouldn’t feel the need for. We’re deep through the looking glass here. Freedoms are being denied to certain age groups and there’s a decent minority of people happy to keep denying freedoms to 20/30 somethings who are denied vaccines because Covid isn’t dangerous enough to them. Bizarre situation.

Ah come on ffs, they are not being denied vaccines, there's a reason for starting with elderly people and working down the years. 20/30 year olds will NOT be denied a vaccine. You think they are just going from 40+ to teenager and shipping 20/30 year olds?

Sobit1964

The age grouping that is being throttled is the group that has kids. Irish have travelled and spawned the world over.

Its been approaching two years since the grandparents saw their grandchild, they never met their second. Travel is about more than pints in magaluf.

I suspect that many of those that wish to shut down and keep closed links in and out of Ireland weren't much for travelling to begin with. I'm disgusted by their behaviour.