Covid 19 Part XXXV-956,720 ROI (5,952 deaths) 452,946 NI (3,002 deaths) (08/01) Read OP

Tyrone212

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I think I get where the different view points come from. Two generations ago young people only went abroad to emigrate. One generation ago they may have gone for a working holiday or else waited until they were working and could afford it. Current generation need a holiday abroad before starting work.

We all want normal freedoms back, however foreign holidays are not some sort of necessity

Go back a few more and there was a famine. There's plenty in their 20s already working you know.

"Current generation need a holiday abroad before starting work."

That's just nonsense. Plenty in their 20s give up a year of their lives for miserable ungrateful oldies as well. We can all generalise.

Rayne Wooney

I said a couple of weeks ago that we would probably be one of the worst in Europe for covid debt per capita given the extent of our restrictions and the insane running cost of keeping the country closed this long and it seems like that is now a reality and we are indeed going to be the worst in Europe, that is just surreal, how on earth is that justifiable? It’s criminal.

I feel for the younger generation, one third of the country fully vaccinated, 50 people in hospital for a country with 4.9 million people. Whenever anyone talks about accelerating the reopening we keep hearing about the elderly and vulnerable, there’s around 1.5 million people fully vaccinated here, how many elderly and vulnerable people are there without at least one at this point?

We should be easing further on Monday but we are waiting another two weeks, the UK have 1,300 in hospital today, they had 928 on the 1st of June. It’s taken 19 days to increase 45%. What is with the hysteria? If our hospital numbers increase 50% in the next month we’ll have 72 people in hospital, we’ll also have at least another 1.3 million vaccinations given out.

The numbers make no sense, they never have.

Ha Long Bay

Sobit1964 wrote: »

The age grouping that is being throttled is the group that has kids. Irish have travelled and spawned the world over.

Its been approaching two years since the grandparents saw their grandchild, they never met their second. Travel is about more than pints in magaluf.

I suspect that many of those that wish to shut down and keep closed links in and out of Ireland weren't much for travelling to begin with. I'm disgusted by their behaviour.

Every age group for the vaccine rollout unfortunately had to be throttled due to lack of supply. Why try and single out just one group?

Sobit1964

Ha Long Bay wrote: »

Every age group for the vaccine rollout unfortunately had to be throttled due to lack of supply. Why try and single out just one group?

Thanks for what sounded like a PSA for Phizer - maybe your next trick will be recommending coca cola?

Family and basic human dignity are more important that jabbing people.

Ha Long Bay

Sobit1964 wrote: »

Thanks for what sounded like a PSA for Phizer - maybe your next trick will be recommending coca cola?

Family and basic human dignity are more important that jabbing people.

Sorry was not aware you were anti-vax. Enjoy your night I'm out.

Wolf359f

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

I said a couple of weeks ago that we would probably be one of the worst in Europe for covid debt per capita given the extent of our restrictions and the insane running cost of keeping the country closed this long and it seems like that is now a reality and we are indeed going to be the worst in Europe, that is just surreal, how on earth is that justifiable? It’s criminal.

I feel for the younger generation, one third of the country fully vaccinated, 50 people in hospital for a country with 4.9 million people. Whenever anyone talks about accelerating the reopening we keep hearing about the elderly and vulnerable, there’s around 1.5 million people fully vaccinated here, how many elderly and vulnerable people are there without at least one at this point?

We should be easing further on Monday but we are waiting another two weeks, the UK have 1,300 in hospital today, they had 928 on the 1st of June. It’s taken 19 days to increase 45%. What is with the hysteria? If our hospital numbers increase 50% in the next month we’ll have 72 people in hospital, we’ll also have at least another 1.3 million vaccinations given out.

The numbers make no sense, they never have.

You may want to look at the % increase week on week in the UK.
It's gone from -3% to 14% to 16% and to 20% week on week.
It's not the absolute numbers, it's the % increase.

Sobit1964

Ha Long Bay wrote: »

Sorry was not aware you were anti-vax. Enjoy your night I'm out.

Yawn. I dont need to be a sales person to be pro vaccination. Whats your angle? You seem defensive.

Klonker

I think there's real questions to be asked in terms of what's our goal with covid? We know it was protect the hospitals which was long passed, then if was protect the elderly and vulnerable. I'd argue that's done but some more conservative may argue its not til over 60s get 2nd dose and a few stragglers in cohort 7. That should be done and dusted this time next month.

Then what? Herd immunity? Is it even possible? What percentage vaccinated do we need since vaccines aren't 100% effective for transmission and you'll never get over 90% take up anyway. If we think herd immunity isn't achievable as some seem to think is there much advantage to be gained keeping any restrictions after vulnerable are vaccinated? Is vaccinating 20 and 30 olds really going to change the landscape much from them not being vaccinated as they are so little at risk already? I'm not argueing they shouldnt be vaccinated (though ethically it's questionable when theyre a lot more needed elsewhere) but if herd immunity isn't possible is our position much changed from before and after 20 and 30s are vaccinated?

And what precedent are we setting by still having a number of restrictions in place with less than 50 in hospital? Say we vaccinate all adults by October and remove all restrictions and then due to Winter and no restrictions they increase to 300 in hospital by January, do we reintroduce restrictions? If we had at 50 then why not at 300?

I don't know the answers to these questions but I feel it's missing from the discussion on covid by the media and our experts and we're at the stage now where we need to be knowing what's our end goal.

Wolf359f

Klonker wrote: »

I think there's real questions to be asked in terms of what's our goal with covid? We know it was protect the hospitals which was long passed, then if was protect the elderly and vulnerable. I'd argue that's done but some more conservative may argue its not til over 60s get 2nd dose and a few stragglers in cohort 7. That should be done and dusted this time next month.

Then what? Herd immunity? Is it even possible? What percentage vaccinated do we need since vaccines aren't 100% effective for transmission and you'll never get over 90% take up anyway. If we think herd immunity isn't achievable as some seem to think is there much advantage to be gained keeping any restrictions after vulnerable are vaccinated? Is vaccinating 20 and 30 olds really going to change the landscape much from them not being vaccinated as they are so little at risk already? I'm not argueing they shouldnt be vaccinated (though ethically it's questionable when theyre a lot more needed elsewhere) but if herd immunity isn't possible is our position much changed from before and after 20 and 30s are vaccinated?

And what precedent are we setting by still having a number of restrictions in place with less than 50 in hospital? Say we vaccinate all adults by October and remove all restrictions and then due to Winter and no restrictions they increase to 300 in hospital by January, do we reintroduce restrictions? If we had at 50 then why not at 300?

I don't know the answers to these questions but I feel it's missing from the discussion on covid by the media and our experts and we're at the stage now where we need to be knowing what's our end goal.

Hopefully by the time the next reopening happens, all HCW's, Cohort 4 & (7 possibly) and 60+ will have been double jabbed.

The UK tried to get a certain amount vaccinated and drop all restrictions entirely, but that has been pushed back. Some argue they reopened to fast.

Yes less than 50 in hospital is great here etc... vaccine uptake is high, they work etc... but that doesn't mean we can just reopen overnight etc...
I don't understand people calling for reopening to be accelerated.

hmmm

Klonker wrote: »

I think there's real questions to be asked in terms of what's our goal with covid? We know it was protect the hospitals which was long passed, then if was protect the elderly and vulnerable. I'd argue that's done but some more conservative may argue its not til over 60s get 2nd dose and a few stragglers in cohort 7. That should be done and dusted this time next month.

For me the issue currently is that very little cost seems to be ascribed to telling people they need to remain in restrictions.

"Hey young people, don't be travelling abroad." -> we've become so used to (necessary) restrictions that we've almost forgotten what a big deal this is, and how casually these words are thrown around. There's almost a sneering at younger people complaining about restrictions, as if they should suck it up and simply accept it. We need to very quickly move back to normality, and part of that normality is that people can travel and do whatever they want, either in Ireland or abroad.

We've slowed down our vaccination program because of worries about small risks with vaccines. No-one asked younger people whether they were happy with that, or whether they would have preferred to take the risk and have a shorter period of restrictions as a consequence.

Ha Long Bay

Klonker wrote: »

I think there's real questions to be asked in terms of what's our goal with covid? We know it was protect the hospitals which was long passed, then if was protect the elderly and vulnerable. I'd argue that's done but some more conservative may argue its not til over 60s get 2nd dose and a few stragglers in cohort 7. That should be done and dusted this time next month.

Then what? Herd immunity? Is it even possible? What percentage vaccinated do we need since vaccines aren't 100% effective for transmission and you'll never get over 90% take up anyway. If we think herd immunity isn't achievable as some seem to think is there much advantage to be gained keeping any restrictions after vulnerable are vaccinated? Is vaccinating 20 and 30 olds really going to change the landscape much from them not being vaccinated as they are so little at risk already? I'm not argueing they shouldnt be vaccinated (though ethically it's questionable when theyre a lot more needed elsewhere) but if herd immunity isn't possible is our position much changed from before and after 20 and 30s are vaccinated?

And what precedent are we setting by still having a number of restrictions in place with less than 50 in hospital? Say we vaccinate all adults by October and remove all restrictions and then due to Winter and no restrictions they increase to 300 in hospital by January, do we reintroduce restrictions? If we had at 50 then why not at 300?

I don't know the answers to these questions but I feel it's missing from the discussion on covid by the media and our experts and we're at the stage now where we need to be knowing what's our end goal.

Why do you think hospital figures will jump six fold to 300 due to Covid with a large amount of the population vaccinated?


By holding back easing all current restrictions by 3 weeks it gets us close to an extra 20% of the population a good level of protection and reduce the risk of ever having to implement any further restrictions.

Wolf359f

hmmm wrote: »

For me the issue currently is that very little cost seems to be ascribed to telling people they need to remain in restrictions.

"Hey young people, don't be travelling abroad." -> we've become so used to (necessary) restrictions that we've almost forgotten what a big deal this is, and how casually these words are thrown around. There's almost a sneering at younger people complaining about restrictions, as if they should suck it up and simply accept it. We need to very quickly move back to normality, and part of that normality is that people can travel and do whatever they want, either in Ireland or abroad.

We've slowed down our vaccination program because of worries about small risks with vaccines. No-one asked younger people whether they were happy with that, or whether they would have preferred to take the risk and have a shorter period of restrictions as a consequence.

Who has said young people can't travel abroad.... or more importantly, who said it's ok for elderly people to travel abroad? I wasn't aware of any change in travel policy or it be divided between young and old.

You have a weird sense of normality if being able to travel defines it.

Tired332

Regarding travel has anyone any information on the global EU vaccine app and what freedoms does it grant us. Is there a thread I missed maybe someone can share the link

Rayne Wooney

Wolf359f wrote: »

You may want to look at the % increase week on week in the UK.
It's gone from -3% to 14% to 16% and to 20% week on week.
It's not the absolute numbers, it's the % increase.

If tomorrow we start increasing at the same rate the UK has been since 1st June (we won’t) then by 9th of July we’ll have 70 people in hospital.

If it increases 50% every week from there we’ll have 1,500 in hospital by start of September, that is hundreds lower than our January peak and we’ll also have over 6.7 million vaccines doses given out. Every adult in the country will be fully vaccinated by mid September.

The above is a worst case scenario, the chances of it actually playing out minute, in reality it’ll be a lot less serious. I’d like to see the projections the government/nphet are working with here, it doesn’t compute.

irishguy1983

Ha Long Bay wrote: »

Why do you think hospital figures will jump six fold to 300 due to Covid with a large amount of the population vaccinated?


By holding back easing all current restrictions by 3 weeks it gets us close to an extra 20% of the population a good level of protection and reduce the risk of ever having to implement any further restrictions.

Yeah I suppose I’d like to know what’s happening long term also….I am referring to this winter…Like are we done if 70/80% are fully vaccinated? Let’s say this happens by October - can we just rock on then so to speak? Then again maybe nobody knows the future and this thing is constantly changing/evolving….I suppose I want someone from govt to say ‘No more restrictions ever come September/October’…

Stheno

Wolf359f wrote: »

Who has said young people can't travel abroad.... or more importantly, who said it's ok for elderly people to travel abroad? I wasn't aware of any change in travel policy or it be divided between young and old.

You have a weird sense of normality if being able to travel defines it.

Tony Holohan on Thursday/Friday said the public health advice is do not travel unless you are vaccinated

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/news/health/coronavirus/do-not-travel-unless-you-are-vaccinated-says-holohan-1.4597028%3fmode=amp

Seems to go against the EU cert crteria

Ficheall

irishguy1983 wrote: »

I suppose I want someone from govt to say ‘No more restrictions ever come September/October’…

Even if it were to turn out not to be true?

TefalBrain

Klonker wrote: »

I think there's real questions to be asked in terms of what's our goal with covid? We know it was protect the hospitals which was long passed, then if was protect the elderly and vulnerable. I'd argue that's done but some more conservative may argue its not til over 60s get 2nd dose and a few stragglers in cohort 7. That should be done and dusted this time next month.

Then what? Herd immunity? Is it even possible? What percentage vaccinated do we need since vaccines aren't 100% effective for transmission and you'll never get over 90% take up anyway. If we think herd immunity isn't achievable as some seem to think is there much advantage to be gained keeping any restrictions after vulnerable are vaccinated? Is vaccinating 20 and 30 olds really going to change the landscape much from them not being vaccinated as they are so little at risk already? I'm not argueing they shouldnt be vaccinated (though ethically it's questionable when theyre a lot more needed elsewhere) but if herd immunity isn't possible is our position much changed from before and after 20 and 30s are vaccinated?

And what precedent are we setting by still having a number of restrictions in place with less than 50 in hospital? Say we vaccinate all adults by October and remove all restrictions and then due to Winter and no restrictions they increase to 300 in hospital by January, do we reintroduce restrictions? If we had at 50 then why not at 300?

I don't know the answers to these questions but I feel it's missing from the discussion on covid by the media and our experts and we're at the stage now where we need to be knowing what's our end goal.

Irish journalists asking the hard questions of our supposed betters? Come on now, they've a career to be thinking about.

Much easier for them to throw about slogans like "In it together" or "stay safe" than be actual journos.

podgeandrodge

It is interesting that the European Centre for Disease Control has determined that the risk of in-flight Covid transmission is ‘very low’ - based on "evidence from contact tracing studies involving scientific investigation of the virus among passengers".

Great news, but I find it hard to understand how cooked up for a couple of hours on a plane is fine, but sitting in a restaurant isn't. Is it simply just the air filtration or how can they be safer "indoors" compared to other locations?

snotboogie

Klonker wrote: »

I think there's real questions to be asked in terms of what's our goal with covid? We know it was protect the hospitals which was long passed, then if was protect the elderly and vulnerable. I'd argue that's done but some more conservative may argue its not til over 60s get 2nd dose and a few stragglers in cohort 7. That should be done and dusted this time next month.

Then what? Herd immunity? Is it even possible? What percentage vaccinated do we need since vaccines aren't 100% effective for transmission and you'll never get over 90% take up anyway. If we think herd immunity isn't achievable as some seem to think is there much advantage to be gained keeping any restrictions after vulnerable are vaccinated? Is vaccinating 20 and 30 olds really going to change the landscape much from them not being vaccinated as they are so little at risk already? I'm not argueing they shouldnt be vaccinated (though ethically it's questionable when theyre a lot more needed elsewhere) but if herd immunity isn't possible is our position much changed from before and after 20 and 30s are vaccinated?

And what precedent are we setting by still having a number of restrictions in place with less than 50 in hospital? Say we vaccinate all adults by October and remove all restrictions and then due to Winter and no restrictions they increase to 300 in hospital by January, do we reintroduce restrictions? If we had at 50 then why not at 300?

I don't know the answers to these questions but I feel it's missing from the discussion on covid by the media and our experts and we're at the stage now where we need to be knowing what's our end goal.

You get there at about 110 to 120 doses per 100. Israel and Malta have both passed this mark and are down to 1 or 2 cases per million per day, which is effectively elimination.

eagle eye

podgeandrodge wrote:

It is interesting that the European Centre for Disease Control has determined that the risk of in-flight Covid transmission is ‘very low’ - based on "evidence from contact tracing studies involving scientific investigation of the virus among passengers".

I never heard of the ECDC until you posted this. How long are they going?

Klonker

Ha Long Bay wrote: »

Why do you think hospital figures will jump six fold to 300 due to Covid with a large amount of the population vaccinated?


By holding back easing all current restrictions by 3 weeks it gets us close to an extra 20% of the population a good level of protection and reduce the risk of ever having to implement any further restrictions.

I never said I think it will but it could. My point is with no restrictions, Winter, large gatherings, vaccines not 100% effective who's to say numbers won't increase a bit at Winter. In fact the English CMO said to expect covid cases and deaths to increase in Winter along with the return of other respiratory diseases.

If that was to increase our covid hospital numbers to 300 for example, will the media be reporting on it and will the public be screaming for restrictions to be introduced? If we have restrictions at 50 why not 300? Do we look at it as we've vaccinated all we can and that's all we can do and get on with things or do we reintroduce restrictions to limit hospitalisations/deaths etc.

As I said, I don't know the answers but there needs to be a bit of discussion on the long term strategy we are aiming for.

TheDoctor

Klonker wrote: »

I never said I think it will but it could. My point is with no restrictions, Winter, large gatherings, vaccines not 100% effective who's to say numbers won't increase a bit at Winter. In fact the English CMO said to expect covid cases and deaths to increase in Winter along with the return of other respiratory diseases.

If that was to increase our covid hospital numbers to 300 for example, will the media be reporting on it and will the public be screaming for restrictions to be introduced? If we have restrictions at 50 why not 300? Do we look at it as we've vaccinated all we can and that's all we can do and get on with things or do we reintroduce restrictions to limit hospitalisations/deaths etc.

As I said, I don't know the answers but there needs to be a bit of discussion on the long term strategy we are aiming for.

Anyone screaming for a lockdown with 300 people in hospital due to covid needs to have their heads banged together and told to cop on.

Lockdowns are an extraordinary measure which seem to have become far too normalised in the past year.

Klonker

snotboogie wrote: »

You get there at about 110 to 120 doses per 100. Israel and Malta have both passed this mark and are down to 1 or 2 cases per million per day, which is effectively elimination.

Hope you're right.

Worldwide there's not a hope of getting to those vaccination rates and then we don't know how long vaccination or naturally immunity begins to wain.

Klonker

TheDoctor wrote: »

Anyone screaming for a lockdown with 300 people in hospital due to covid needs to have their heads banged together and told to cop on.

Lockdowns are an extraordinary measure which seem to have become far too normalised in the past year.

I agree 100% but would you be surprised?

I was reading a twitter thread the other day where Vincent Browne (how we could do with a journalist like him now) asking why are we quarentining vaccinated individuals who arrive here? Thread was full of vaccines aren't 100% protection and people were calling for no travel and no indoor dining until we get herd immunity.

People here have lost all sense when it comes to risk and proportional response to such risk and the costs involved, both monetary and social.

Jim_Hodge

eagle eye wrote: »

I never heard of the ECDC until you posted this. How long are they going?

Since May 2005.

funnydoggy

Klonker wrote: »

I agree 100% but would you be surprised?

I was reading a twitter thread the other day where Vincent Browne (how we could do with a journalist like him now) asking why are we quarentining vaccinated individuals who arrive here? Thread was full of vaccines aren't 100% protection and people were calling for no travel and no indoor dining until we get herd immunity.

People here have lost all sense when it comes to risk and proportional response to such risk and the costs involved, both monetary and social.

Bang on. The Twitter hivemind re: lockdowns is actually embarrassing. I was one of the extremely vocal pro-maskers on the site at the start and now that masks are here, most of the same people are now zero covid people.

I read a quote from someone I knew that pushed for extended lockdown and a zero approach in case (and I quote word for word) a "super mutation comes out rendering all vaccines useless".

I rolled my eyes so hard I gave myself a concussion.

Goldengirl

Tyrone212 wrote: »

Go back a few more and there was a famine. There's plenty in their 20s already working you know.

"Current generation need a holiday abroad before starting work."

That's just nonsense. Plenty in their 20s give up a year of their lives for miserable ungrateful oldies as well. We can all generalise.

So what's the option..
Vaccinate teens and early 20s next and skip 30 + till later on??
Only way out of this is antigen testing on way back, but depending on variant circulating people would still need a negative PCR 5 days later at the very least before out of isolation post travel.

Goldengirl

Klonker wrote: »

I think there's real questions to be asked in terms of what's our goal with covid? We know it was protect the hospitals which was long passed, then if was protect the elderly and vulnerable. I'd argue that's done but some more conservative may argue its not til over 60s get 2nd dose and a few stragglers in cohort 7. That should be done and dusted this time next month.

Then what? Herd immunity? Is it even possible? What percentage vaccinated do we need since vaccines aren't 100% effective for transmission and you'll never get over 90% take up anyway. If we think herd immunity isn't achievable as some seem to think is there much advantage to be gained keeping any restrictions after vulnerable are vaccinated? Is vaccinating 20 and 30 olds really going to change the landscape much from them not being vaccinated as they are so little at risk already? I'm not argueing they shouldnt be vaccinated (though ethically it's questionable when theyre a lot more needed elsewhere) but if herd immunity isn't possible is our position much changed from before and after 20 and 30s are vaccinated?

And what precedent are we setting by still having a number of restrictions in place with less than 50 in hospital? Say we vaccinate all adults by October and remove all restrictions and then due to Winter and no restrictions they increase to 300 in hospital by January, do we reintroduce restrictions? If we had at 50 then why not at 300?

.

Less than 50 in hospital???
Covid maybe..
Hospitals back to normal activity while maintaining precautions and trying to get everything done with a backlog due to Covid and a barely functioning system due to cyber hack, only gradually getting sorted. It has completely thrown a spanner into the already rusty works.
All we need now is what is happening in the UK.
Hospitalisation is going up there, how severe maybe not an issue hopefully, but increases in Covid numbers affect normal services.
People don't just lie in a bed and get better, they need nursing care, resources special Covid wards...

If everybody fully vaccinated we will have a chance to get back to whatever is considered normal activity at least.

podgeandrodge

eagle eye wrote: »

I never heard of the ECDC until you posted this. How long are they going?

they've been a pretty regular feature of EU decisions on covid actions