Covid 19 Part XXXV-956,720 ROI (5,952 deaths) 452,946 NI (3,002 deaths) (08/01) Read OP

Goldengirl

kleiner feigling wrote: »

Any source for this, and any data for the components/excipients that enter organs, and in what quantities.
Genuinely curious to see how the new technologies compare to standard vaccines.

Isn't that contained in the Japanese study you posted originally about this ?

kleiner feigling

Goldengirl wrote: »

Isn't that contained in the Japanese study you posted originally about this ?

Yes, I have that data. I'm asking for the data regarding a standard vaccine eg. flu if you can direct me to it?

MerlinSouthDub

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Looking at the Datahub today, ICU is down by 2 to 13 this morning, so the slight uptick in hospitalisations (to 53) is of less concern.

Hospitalisations always go up at the weekend (due to little or no discharges), the uptick is of precisely zero concern.

kilns

You have to wonder why has Irelands cases remain stagnant for such a long time.
Here in Switzerland the rates have been falling by 30-50% weekly. The latest figure is 120, which the equivilant of around 70 in Ireland, also Germany which had such high cases now are reporting 360 cases only! which is a dramatic drop but Ireland has remained stagnant, has this question been asked?

Goldengirl

kleiner feigling wrote: »

Yes, I have that data. I'm asking for the data regarding a standard vaccine eg. flu if you can direct me to it?

Not a clue really without googling it , which you can do too!;)

Or you could ask that on the Vaccine Megathread and see what the experts there come back with?

kleiner feigling

kilns wrote: »

You have to wonder why has Irelands cases remain stagnant for such a long time.
Here in Switzerland the rates have been falling by 30-50% weekly. The latest figure is 120, which the equivilant of around 70 in Ireland, also Germany which had such high cases now are reporting 360 cases only! which is a dramatic drop but Ireland has remained stagnant, has this question been asked?

Could be variability in the PCR cycles between countries, but my guess would be healthier populations compared to Ireland, leading to reduced symptoms and therefore reduced numbers.
For example obesity in Ireland is around 25% of people, but is 15% in Switzerland.

First Up

kilns wrote:

You have to wonder why has Irelands cases remain stagnant for such a long time. Here in Switzerland the rates have been falling by 30-50% weekly. The latest figure is 120, which the equivilant of around 70 in Ireland, also Germany which had such high cases now are reporting 360 cases only! which is a dramatic drop but Ireland has remained stagnant, has this question been asked?

Maybe ask the people who contracted it which precautions they took - and didn't take.

kleiner feigling

Goldengirl wrote: »

Not a clue really without googling it , which you can do too!;)

Or you could ask that on the Vaccine Megathread and see what the experts there come back with?

Yes I've done some Google searches. I thought based on your comments that you might have something handy to back up your point, but thanks, I will ask over there.

kilns

First Up wrote: »

Maybe ask the people who contracted it which precautions they took - and didn't take.

Thats why I am asking, you would expect the Govt. to have this and be able to explain. Have journalists asked this instead of patting each other on the back for low numbers

bucketybuck

kilns wrote: »

You have to wonder why has Irelands cases remain stagnant for such a long time.
Here in Switzerland the rates have been falling by 30-50% weekly. The latest figure is 120, which the equivilant of around 70 in Ireland, also Germany which had such high cases now are reporting 360 cases only! which is a dramatic drop but Ireland has remained stagnant, has this question been asked?

If I was to spitball I would say it is the correlation between reopening and vaccinations.

Reopening raises cases, vaccinations lower them.

If the society was already relatively open then the increase from further reopening should be less pronounced, and so cases overall drop due to the vaccination effect.

If the society was previously closed then the increase from reopening would be more pronounced, negating to some extent the decrease from vaccinations.

wadacrack

kleiner feigling wrote: »

Could be variability in the PCR cycles between countries, but my guess would be healthier populations compared to Ireland, leading to reduced symptoms and therefore reduced numbers.
For example obesity in Ireland is around 25% of people, but is 15% in Switzerland.

Obesity is a huge factor yea. Correlation between how countries have performed and obesity rates.

This needs to be addressed in this country. We are too comfortable with our food habits here.

Goldengirl

kleiner feigling wrote: »

Yes I've done some Google searches. I thought based on your comments that you might have something handy to back up your point, but thanks, I will ask over there.

I answered your points and posted relevant information. You asked someone else that question.
I am not any more knowledgeable about pharma than most nurses , but I would think that as it has not been flagged by any of the regulating bodies that there is any difference relating to absorption or dissemination around the body of the components of this vaccine in relation to any other vaccine , then they have not found it to be an issue .
The EMA and FDA and such are primarily made up of pharmacologists so would be happy that they know what they are at .
What specifically are you looking for ? Am curious ...:)

seamus

kleiner feigling wrote: »

Could be variability in the PCR cycles between countries, but my guess would be healthier populations compared to Ireland, leading to reduced symptoms and therefore reduced numbers.
For example obesity in Ireland is around 25% of people, but is 15% in Switzerland.

Pretty big assumptions, jumping to unnecessarily complex explanations tbh.

Could simply be a matter of testing less. Unfortunately we have no idea how many we are doing at the moment, but Germany and Switzerland have both reduced their testing levels since the start of May by 30%, while we were on a ramp-up when the hack hit. Considering the amount of walk-in test centres we are now operating, it looks to me like we've continued to increase the amount we're doing. But that's a guess.

Goldengirl

kilns wrote: »

Thats why I am asking, you would expect the Govt. to have this and be able to explain. Have journalists asked this instead of patting each other on the back for low numbers

Damned if they do and damned if they don't!

Cases mainly 19 to 24 year olds , staying high in this group .
Doubt it is related to obesity (!) in this age group , more likely just good old socialising and sharing spit ...yeah even outdoors ,that'll do it !

Are the Swiss young things not out and about or is it stricter over there ?

mollser

kilns wrote: »

You have to wonder why has Irelands cases remain stagnant for such a long time.
Here in Switzerland the rates have been falling by 30-50% weekly. The latest figure is 120, which the equivilant of around 70 in Ireland, also Germany which had such high cases now are reporting 360 cases only! which is a dramatic drop but Ireland has remained stagnant, has this question been asked?

It's not just that their cases are falling, but they also have way more of their economies open and for way longer (and have crowds at footy matches:D). This question really needs to be put to NPHET, it can't be a co-icidence that they are also widely using antigen testing in those countries to nip it in the bud at source - in fact I think this is the starkest real life example of the benefits of antigen testing! NEPHET are basically using us as guinea pigs to see if we can manage this without antigen testing - somebody should ask that question!

kilns

seamus wrote: »

Pretty big assumptions, jumping to unnecessarily complex explanations tbh.

Could simply be a matter of testing less. Unfortunately we have no idea how many we are doing at the moment, but Germany and Switzerland have both reduced their testing levels since the start of May by 30%, while we were on a ramp-up when the hack hit. Considering the amount of walk-in test centres we are now operating, it looks to me like we've continued to increase the amount we're doing. But that's a guess.

Official testing has been reduced in Switzerland because since May every citizen was entitled to 5 free antigen self tests per month. If test from home and then if test postive with those you go for PCR test free of charge to confirm

kilns

Goldengirl wrote: »

Damned if they do and damned if they don't!

Cases mainly 19 to 24 year olds , staying high in this group .
Doubt it is related to obesity (!) in this age group , more likely just good old socialising and sharing spit ...yeah even outdoors ,that'll do it !

Are the Swiss young things not out and about or is it stricter over there ?

It is much less strict over here, always has been.

Goldengirl

mollser wrote: »

It's not just that their cases are falling, but they also have way more of their economies open and for way longer (and have crowds at footy matches:D). This question really needs to be put to NPHET, it can't be a co-icidence that they are also widely using antigen testing in those countries to nip it in the bud at source - in fact I think this is the starkest real life example of the benefits of antigen testing! NEPHET are basically using us as guinea pigs to see if we can manage this without antigen testing - somebody should ask that question!

Loads of walk in test centres if people want to know whether they are positive or not .
If people want to know .....

kleiner feigling

Goldengirl wrote: »

This is a good article explaining it .....

https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2021-01-08/covid-19-vaccine-injection-upper-arm-muscle-deltoid-immune/13031918

Cool, thanks for sharing.

That seems to confirm what I previously said; that in vaccines (old and new) antigens (eg. viral proteins) that are transported into the lymph and the immune response is recorded there.

However, as that Japanese data shows, for these new technologies the Lipid Nanoparticle is also transported to a number of organs. These nanoparticles contain the mRNA (the instructions to produce spike protein).
That means cells in multiple organs will contain the instructions to produce spike proteins. Other vaccines do not do anything like this.

It is quite concerning that cells in the spleen, kidneys, ovaries etc. will now be capable of producing spike protein, which is a know antigen. Antigens by their nature illicit an immune response.

We don't need an immune response in other organs.

Goldengirl

kilns wrote: »

It is much less strict over here, always has been.

Provide some more information ., specifically...
What is there level of vaccination? One dose , two doses ...
What was the level of infection before vaccination ?

Do they have a large young population like Ireland ?

mollser

Goldengirl wrote: »

Loads of walk in test centres if people want to know whether they are positive or not .
If people want to know .....

True, but you're not going to do to that every week, or is it convenient, or is it quick, so its not comparing like with like vis a vis the benefits of another readily available form of testing, which is clearly having the desired effect accross Europe

Goldengirl

kleiner feigling wrote: »

Cool, thanks for sharing.

That seems to confirm what I previously said; that in vaccines (old and new) antigens (eg. viral proteins) that are transported into the lymph and the immune response is recorded there.

However, as that Japanese data shows, for these new technologies the Lipid Nanoparticle is also transported to a number of organs. These nanoparticles contain the mRNA (the instructions to produce spike protein).
That means cells in multiple organs will contain the instructions to produce spike proteins. Other vaccines do not do anything like this.

It is quite concerning that cells in the spleen, kidneys, ovaries etc. will now be capable of producing spike protein, which is a know antigen. Antigens by their nature illicit an immune response.

We don't need an immune response in other organs.

It is the same with other antigen antibody responses .
Every response cannot be limited unfortunately .
Happy to be of help but I can't answer any more specifically really but try the other thread .

kleiner feigling

seamus wrote: »

Pretty big assumptions, jumping to unnecessarily complex explanations tbh.

Could simply be a matter of testing less. Unfortunately we have no idea how many we are doing at the moment, but Germany and Switzerland have both reduced their testing levels since the start of May by 30%, while we were on a ramp-up when the hack hit. Considering the amount of walk-in test centres we are now operating, it looks to me like we've continued to increase the amount we're doing. But that's a guess.

Its hard to say, but we know that healthy populations (i.e. young people) are at much greater risk of a) catching covid b) becoming symptomatic comapred to vulnerable groups (i.e. elderly etc).
So it would make absolute sense that healthy nations would have lower numbers than unhealthy nations, and that health can be gauged using various markers (obesity being a very simple example to pick, but one that does directly dampen the immune system).

kleiner feigling

Goldengirl wrote: »

It is the same with other antigen antibody responses .
Every response cannot be limited unfortunately .
Happy to be of help but I can't answer any more specifically really but try the other thread .

Thanks for your input, I will take it over there also.
From everything I've seen, it isn't the same.
Standard vaccines teach us to produce antibodies in response to a controlled amount of antigens.
They do not teach organs of the body to produce said antigens.
It is entirely different.

Goldengirl

mollser wrote: »

True, but you're not going to do to that every week, or is it convenient, or is it quick, so its not comparing like with like vis a vis the benefits of another readily available form of testing, which is clearly having the desired effect accross Europe

Are you saying people are being antigen tested in Europe before they go out drinking ?
I think you are being disingenuous if you think that antigen testing would make any difference to the age groups that are happily out partying .
" Hey guys, you can have an antigen testing kit with that slab of cans , but if positive you have to stay home and quarantine and get a PCR ".....yeah , right

Maybe before going to work in an office , concerts or indoor clubs it would be of use , yes , but as of now , no .

kilns

Goldengirl wrote: »

Provide some more information ., specifically...
What is there level of vaccination? One dose , two doses ...
What was the level of infection before vaccination ?

Do they have a large young population like Ireland ?

28.9% fully vaccinated as of today

Up until start of May 7 day average was approx 2000

It would have a demographic similar enough to Ireland

timmyntc

kleiner feigling wrote: »

Cool, thanks for sharing.

That seems to confirm what I previously said; that in vaccines (old and new) antigens (eg. viral proteins) that are transported into the lymph and the immune response is recorded there.

However, as that Japanese data shows, for these new technologies the Lipid Nanoparticle is also transported to a number of organs. These nanoparticles contain the mRNA (the instructions to produce spike protein).
That means cells in multiple organs will contain the instructions to produce spike proteins. Other vaccines do not do anything like this.

It is quite concerning that cells in the spleen, kidneys, ovaries etc. will now be capable of producing spike protein, which is a know antigen. Antigens by their nature illicit an immune response.

We don't need an immune response in other organs.

Thats the same case with conventional vaccines though really - there will be antigens all over the body - an immune response local to your arm is no good against anything.

The only "worrying" part of this is the lipid used builds up in (relatively) large concentrations in certain organs - could be one cause of myocarditis in younger men.

Goldengirl

kleiner feigling wrote: »

Thanks for your input, I will take it over there also.
From everything I've seen, it isn't the same.
Standard vaccines teach us to produce antibodies in response to a controlled amount of antigens.
They do not teach organs of the body to produce said antigens.
It is entirely different.

You are talking about mRNA vaccines .
Viral vector, AZ and Jand J are like 'older ' type vaccines .

You are wrong however.
The RNA just teaches your TCells to produce a response which in turn is ' remembered' by B cells . It doesn't create an circulating antigen and the RNA is continually destroyed over a period of days in your body .
The reactions people get are inflammatory defence reactions to the immune response .
Again more info on the other thread and links that you might find more useful than my very basic interpretation .

Goldengirl

timmyntc wrote: »

Thats the same case with conventional vaccines though really - there will be antigens all over the body - an immune response local to your arm is no good against anything.

The only "worrying" part of this is the lipid used builds up in (relatively) large concentrations in certain organs - could be one cause of myocarditis in younger men.

While I am a little' worried ' about the possibility of myocarditis in young men post Pfizer vaccine ( I have a bunch under 30 in my house! ) , it was found to be very mild in the cases that occurred in Israel, and they don't think it is statistically significant at all , ie . as many as occurring normally due to virus infection

kleiner feigling

Goldengirl wrote: »

You are talking about mRNA vaccines .
Viral vector, AZ and Jand J are like 'older ' type vaccines .

You are wrong however.
The RNA just teaches your TCells to produce a response which in turn is ' remembered' by B cells .

I am specifically talking about Pfizer and Moderna, just to clarify.

But you are incorrect - the mRNA is not an instruction to your t-Cells.
To quote CDC "mRNA vaccines give instructions for our cells to make a harmless piece of what is called the “spike protein.”"
It is the exposure to the spike proteins that prompts our own body to mount an immune response.
However, if the instructions to produce spike proteins are found in various tissues/organs, will those tissues also produce spike protein, and will our bodies mount immune responses in those areas also? I won't go on about it, and thanks for your input. I've popped the same queries in the vaccine thread now.