Covid 19 Part XXXV-956,720 ROI (5,952 deaths) 452,946 NI (3,002 deaths) (08/01) Read OP

kieran26

seamus wrote: »

Discrimination is not illegal. Discriminating based on vaccine status is not illegal, especially if it serves a purpose and is based on government guidelines. Whether it's ethical is a different discussion, but I see no issue provided that it's temporary.
Well, I agree. But considering the fact that you think it's patently unfair, I don't think you would have been any more amenable to the idea months ago either. So it's a moot question.

What's it about then? Because it's clearly not about getting businesses back on their feet if people are unwilling to accept a little compromise.

Just because its not discrimination under law, doesn't mean its not discrimination.
I didn't mention that it wasl illegal.

SusanC10

Below is from the Relaxation of restrictions thread

"Quote: jester77
What are they at in Ireland, why don't they use the official Corona App?

Here in Germany, to get into a restaurant/pub/cafe/etc you either need your vaccination certificate or a negative test result scanned into the official Corona app. The vaccination shows up 14 days after the second jab, and the rapid test, which you get for free at any of the multiple test centers, shows up 15 minutes after you get a test. The negative test result is valid for 48 hours. And when you show the cert, you then check in with the app by scanning a QR code at the entrance, and you will be later informed if someone who was there returned a positive test result."

Why can't we in Ireland do something like this ?

RGS

is_that_so wrote: »

There's also the option where the government eventually say no to NPHET! That will come soon enough if they continue to warn us in this manner.

There is no chance MM will tell NPHET to F**K off. He does not the Balls to do it.


Hes the most incompetent leader this country has ever had.


Leo might if his twitter account tells him its the best option.

lucernarian

seamus wrote: »

Discrimination is not illegal. Discriminating based on vaccine status is not illegal, especially if it serves a purpose and is based on government guidelines. Whether it's ethical is a different discussion, but I see no issue provided that it's temporary.
Well, I agree. But considering the fact that you think it's patently unfair, I don't think you would have been any more amenable to the idea months ago either. So it's a moot question.

What's it about then? Because it's clearly not about getting businesses back on their feet if people are unwilling to accept a little compromise.

"One would be forgiven for thinking that this is nothing to do with saving businesses at all, and is more about the individuals' own opposition to restrictions in any form, or their own selfish desire to get back into their dirty little corner of the local boozer."

Way to lose the audience... You're equating various frustrations that people deservedly have, with one specific aspect of the reopening. There actually are legal ramifications to discrimination based on aspects of their person they cannot control, this is actually a well-established principle in common law. I'd agree with selective measures to a limited extent but to be legally justifiable they'd a) have to exist while any adult can voluntarily get a vaccine and b) 6 weeks from now when people can be considered to be vaccinated with any vaccine we have.

Beechwoodspark

RGS wrote: »

There is no chance MM will tell NPHET to F**K off. He does not the Balls to do it.


Hes the most incompetent leader this country has ever had.


Leo might if his twitter account tells him its the best option.

Leo is even more incompetent

Give me MM any day over media obsessed LV

harr

Off on holiday middle of next week , left it till next week because was fairly sure restaurants and pubs would be open. Not staying in a hotel but a rented house had a number of restaurants booked for the duration of the holidays and that’s gone now as they only have a limited number of outdoor options.
Plus we have a special needs kids with us so not all outdoor dining is suitable the lack of toilet facilities while holidaying in Ireland is ridiculous and normally would use pubs as we traveled around.
This decision has seriously dented our weeks holiday and has a knock on effect on the other kids.
I am sure a lot in same situation.
I honestly don’t understand how last summer we could safely dine out and have a few drinks while on holiday with no vaccines and this year half the country vaccinated and denied access to restaurants.
Its mad how you can go to cinema or mass use the bus or train or even the gym but we can’t have dinner or lunch in a restaurant with a limited number of people.

ypres5

SusanC10 wrote: »

Below is from the Relaxation of restrictions thread

"Quote: jester77
What are they at in Ireland, why don't they use the official Corona App?

Here in Germany, to get into a restaurant/pub/cafe/etc you either need your vaccination certificate or a negative test result scanned into the official Corona app. The vaccination shows up 14 days after the second jab, and the rapid test, which you get for free at any of the multiple test centers, shows up 15 minutes after you get a test. The negative test result is valid for 48 hours. And when you show the cert, you then check in with the app by scanning a QR code at the entrance, and you will be later informed if someone who was there returned a positive test result."

Why can't we in Ireland do something like this ?

Tony doesn't like antigen tests, end of discussion.

Cork2021

As per delay in easing of restrictions very little discharged from hospitals yesterday. I wonder….

https://covid19ireland-geohive.hub.arcgis.com/

SusanC10

ypres5 wrote: »

Tony doesn't like antigen tests, end of discussion.

Which is a pity as that suggestion sounds reasonable and workable.

Ferris_Bueller

So many questions. I have never felt so negative and distrustful in my life, I feel like our government, media, TDs, etc cannot be trusted anymore. My age group (under 30s) have been treated like sh**e from day one. We have sacrificed arguably more than any other age group, been blamed countless amounts of times despite being told we are the least at risk. Now we face not being allowed the same privileges as others. How is that fair?

- Where are they pulling these figures from? 2,100 deaths and 700,000 cases across August & September? Pull the other one. If they genuinely think this then what will keeping indoor dining closed achieve? Surely we should be building our bunkers and stocking up on supplies if this is the case. It is complete fabrication and they know it. They needed something to scare people, even though it seems most of us can see through their lies, there are bound to be some people who think 'oh god, maybe we should keep them closed' after hearing these figures.

- What makes indoor dining so unsafe specifically? I'm a teacher who has been in a classroom with 25+ unmasked kids every day (apart from two months at the start of 2021), I had no problems with it and neither did any of my colleagues. But how can you say that is safe yet we can't sit inside a cafe for a cup of coffee?? What is the difference? I was also in Dundrum shopping centre at the weekend along with probably 1,000+ others walking around. Again, what is the difference between the two? Countless other examples I'm sure across many other sectors and parts of society.

- How can they propose to re-open dining for vaccinated people after ruling it out earlier in the year? It reeks of them making it up as they go along and not having a clue. Not to mention most people serving you in these places are still waiting on a vaccine and most likely won't have one until the end of the summer.

- We were told that we would be the envy of Europe after our strict lockdowns earlier in the year once the vaccines get rolled out. We are now the laughing stock of Europe, still in lockdown, as thousands gather across the rest of the continent for matches, concerts, events, etc. What has changed? What has not gone to plan?

- How come we are so petrified of the Delta variant compared to other countries? I haven't been following it close enough, but surely this variant has infiltrated multiple countries in Europe by now. How come they aren't 'projecting' mass deaths and bashing the panic button like we are?

But above all, if I had one question for Tony it would be - What makes Ireland so different? We are receiving the same amount of vaccines per capita as the rest of the EU. We have a population willing to take the vaccines. We have very low cases in hospital and ICU. We have been living in the strictest lockdown in Europe for the lengthiest time. Why can we not live like the rest of Europe?

NPHET are dangerous from what I can see. They are telling blatant lies to try and keep a grip on the nation. I realise I possibly sound like a 'conspiracy nut', but I am not normally or was not always like this. I am angry. Fed up, don't know who to trust or listen to anymore.

seamus

lucernarian wrote: »

There actually are legal ramifications to discrimination based on aspects of their person they cannot control, this is actually a well-established principle in common law.

In effect, all discrimination is perfectly legal if it can be established that there is good reason for it.

A business can refuse to serve a disabled person, or a pregnant woman, or a muslim, or whatever, if they can show good reason why serving that person is not physically possible or otherwise cannot be accommodated due to the nature of the business.

The fact that someone cannot access a vaccine immediately, does not automatically make discrimination against them illegal. Nor does it make it unethical, especially when there is a reasonable alternative (outside) available to them.

The are no major legal ramifications to restricting indoor dining on a temporary basis, to vaccinated people only.

Rayne Wooney

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Because people had to wai till August (or whenever) rather than June to go out for a meal?

No, because we will have the highest covid debt per capita in all of Europe after this, and unquantifiable damage besides the above to businesses, delayed diagnosis.

How is that justifiable for a small island nation? Why are we so far behind the rest of Europe with reopening?

funnydoggy

Ferris_Bueller wrote: »

So many questions. I have never felt so negative and distrustful in my life, I feel like our government, media, TDs, etc cannot be trusted anymore. My age group (under 30s) have been treated like sh**e from day one. We have sacrificed arguably more than any other age group, been blamed countless amounts of times despite being told we are the least at risk. Now we face not being allowed the same privileges as others. How is that fair?

- Where are they pulling these figures from? 2,100 deaths and 700,000 cases across August & September? Pull the other one. If they genuinely think this then what will keeping indoor dining closed achieve? Surely we should be building our bunkers and stocking up on supplies if this is the case. It is complete fabrication and they know it. They needed something to scare people, even though it seems most of us can see through their lies, there are bound to be some people who think 'oh god, maybe we should keep them closed' after hearing these figures.

- What makes indoor dining so unsafe specifically? I'm a teacher who has been in a classroom with 25+ unmasked kids every day (apart from two months at the start of 2021), I had no problems with it and neither did any of my colleagues. But how can you say that is safe yet we can't sit inside a cafe for a cup of coffee?? What is the difference? I was also in Dundrum shopping centre at the weekend along with probably 1,000+ others walking around. Again, what is the difference between the two? Countless other examples I'm sure across many other sectors and parts of society.

- How can they propose to re-open dining for vaccinated people after ruling it out earlier in the year? It reeks of them making it up as they go along and not having a clue. Not to mention most people serving you in these places are still waiting on a vaccine and most likely won't have one until the end of the summer.

- We were told that we would be the envy of Europe after our strict lockdowns earlier in the year once the vaccines get rolled out. We are now the laughing stock of Europe, still in lockdown, as thousands gather across the rest of the continent for matches, concerts, events, etc. What has changed? What has not gone to plan?

- How come we are so petrified of the Delta variant compared to other countries? I haven't been following it close enough, but surely this variant has infiltrated multiple countries in Europe by now. How come they aren't 'projecting' mass deaths and bashing the panic button like we are?

But above all, if I had one question for Tony it would be - What makes Ireland so different? We are receiving the same amount of vaccines per capita as the rest of the EU. We have a population willing to take the vaccines. We have very low cases in hospital and ICU. We have been living in the strictest lockdown in Europe for the lengthiest time. Why can we not live like the rest of Europe?

NPHET are dangerous from what I can see. They are telling blatant lies to try and keep a grip on the nation. I realise I possibly sound like a 'conspiracy nut', but I am not normally or was not always like this. I am angry. Fed up, don't know who to trust or listen to anymore.

Absolutely fantastic post.

ypres5

SusanC10 wrote: »

Which is a pity as that suggestion sounds reasonable and workable.

And that's exactly why it'll never be utilized here.

gral6

Just cop on lads! We need to act now if we want to have meaningful Christmas for 5 days!

goingnowhere

If you look at the ECDC numbers Ireland is now 4th from bottom, only Spain, Portugal and Lativa are worse than we are. We have made zero progress in the last 4 months, our case count has remained broadly level while it has collapse elsewhere.

We had 303 cases reported yesterday
Germany reported 341

Just think about that for a minute, we are running at 13 times the per capita case count of Germany. We have a serious problem. The carry on on the streets, large groups meeting up, take away pints, disregard of mask wearing on public transport etc. We all complain about Tony's position on South William Street and we point the finger and say he got it wrong when cases didn't go up, but they should have been going DOWN and they didn't.

TP_CM

I think Antigen tests would work if done correctly. But the problem is too many people in society aren't following the existing guidelines. I was at the gym yesterday and nobody was wearing masks. Some were wearing them loosely around their chin. Antigen testing would work but not if people don't want them to. In other words, not if people have a motivation to get a negative result. So on that front, I agree with NPHET. It's not the tests themselves, it's the fact that people are self-serving animals like any other who don't want to be at home any more and think that they're the only ones breaking the rules so it's grand.

jam_mac_jam

goingnowhere wrote: »

If you look at the ECDC numbers Ireland is now 4th from bottom, only Spain, Portugal and Lativa are worse than we are. We have made zero progress in the last 4 months, our case count has remained broadly level while it has collapse elsewhere.

We had 303 cases reported yesterday
Germany reported 341

Just think about that for a minute, we are running at 13 times the per capita case count of Germany. We have a serious problem. The carry on on the streets, large groups meeting up, take away pints, disregard of mask wearing on public transport etc. We all complain about Tony's position on South William Street and we point the finger and say he got it wrong when cases didn't go up, but they should have been going DOWN and they didn't.

So what? How many people are in hospital? Less then 50. You see this as a huge problem?

Zero progress?

funnydoggy

TP_CM wrote: »

I think Antigen tests would work if done correctly. But the problem is too many people in society aren't following the existing guidelines. I was at the gym yesterday and nobody was wearing masks. Some were wearing them loosely around their chin. Antigen testing would work but not if people don't want them to. In other words, not if people have a motivation to get a negative result. So on that front, I agree with NPHET. It's not the tests themselves, it's the fact that people are self-serving animals like any other who don't want to be at home any more and think that they're the only ones breaking the rules so it's grand.

Don't think they're compulsory in gyms, could be wrong though.

Ficheall

Ferris_Bueller wrote: »

We have sacrificed arguably more than any other age group

I agree with a lot of your post, but come on - no age group has had an amazing time.

iamwhoiam

goingnowhere wrote: »

If you look at the ECDC numbers Ireland is now 4th from bottom, only Spain, Portugal and Lativa are worse than we are. We have made zero progress in the last 4 months, our case count has remained broadly level while it has collapse elsewhere.

We had 303 cases reported yesterday
Germany reported 341

Just think about that for a minute, we are running at 13 times the per capita case count of Germany. We have a serious problem. The carry on on the streets, large groups meeting up, take away pints, disregard of mask wearing on public transport etc. We all complain about Tony's position on South William Street and we point the finger and say he got it wrong when cases didn't go up, but they should have been going DOWN and they didn't.

Because we are not allowed spread out . If they open everything up and let us spread out my guess is numbers would level out
As it stands no one listens anymore as they have lost trust and gathering in homes and on streets and canals .
Meantime restaurants and pubs are shut where people could sit and chat in comfort if they were trusted
The more you keep shut the more people gather in crowds and are concentrated in small areas

bucketybuck

Since the vaccination rollout is so inherently based on age I think there is a very good chance that discrimination based upon vaccination status could be deemed illegal on those grounds. I would suggest there is certainly enough there to justify a strong legal challenge and a ruling to be made.

Its like saying we don't discriminate against disabled people but holding your interviews at the top of 5 flights of stairs, you don't get away with that...

Sweet.Science

Hold firm

Working class heroes

The next two years are crucial.....

podgeandrodge

Postponed.
Irish Times confirms indoor dining postponed until workable plan for how customers can prove they are vaccinated.
Due to be drawn up by July 19th.

marno21

goingnowhere wrote: »

If you look at the ECDC numbers Ireland is now 4th from bottom, only Spain, Portugal and Lativa are worse than we are. We have made zero progress in the last 4 months, our case count has remained broadly level while it has collapse elsewhere.

We had 303 cases reported yesterday
Germany reported 341

Just think about that for a minute, we are running at 13 times the per capita case count of Germany. We have a serious problem. The carry on on the streets, large groups meeting up, take away pints, disregard of mask wearing on public transport etc. We all complain about Tony's position on South William Street and we point the finger and say he got it wrong when cases didn't go up, but they should have been going DOWN and they didn't.

Cases don’t matter anymore. Lockdowns were to stop the health system collapsing. There are less than 50 people in hospital with Covid-19. It’s thanks to NPHET and ISAG and so on that we are now locking down to prevent infection rather than hospital overload.

The risk factor of a “case” is very different now to 2020. Very different.

hmmm

seamus wrote: »

What's it about then? Because it's clearly not about getting businesses back on their feet if people are unwilling to accept a little compromise.

It looks like it'll be either compromise, or they remain closed.

Government aren't going to reject NPHETs advice a second time after the disaster at Christmas. They had the same pressures then with people telling them to ignore the "scare-mongering" - funnily enough it turned out even NPHET had underestimated how quickly the virus would spread. The situation has changed over the past few weeks owing to Delta, but the exit route of widespread vaccination remains the same.

If businesses can open safely to vaccinated people they should be given the chance to do so. Anyone who says otherwise is crying crocodile tears about the impact this virus is having on the economy.

So we're now getting close to the end of Philip Nolan's "20 more weeks" and he is now predicting doomsday in the coming weeks...

Absolutely no credibility left.

eviltimeban

goingnowhere wrote: »

We had 303 cases reported yesterday
Germany reported 341

Case numbers are meaningless now. Hospitalisations and deaths are so low as to be insignificant.

muddypuppy

goingnowhere wrote: »

If you look at the ECDC numbers Ireland is now 4th from bottom, only Spain, Portugal and Lativa are worse than we are. We have made zero progress in the last 4 months, our case count has remained broadly level while it has collapse elsewhere.

We had 303 cases reported yesterday
Germany reported 341

Just think about that for a minute, we are running at 13 times the per capita case count of Germany. We have a serious problem. The carry on on the streets, large groups meeting up, take away pints, disregard of mask wearing on public transport etc. We all complain about Tony's position on South William Street and we point the finger and say he got it wrong when cases didn't go up, but they should have been going DOWN and they didn't.

Germany has a population about 17 times the one of Ireland, yet they have 61 times the people in the ICU we have. Their 927 would be ~55 here, while we have 15 or so.
Looking only at case numbers is useless. We have many less people due to covid in our hospitals than them.