Covid 19 Part XXXV-956,720 ROI (5,952 deaths) 452,946 NI (3,002 deaths) (08/01) Read OP

Silentcorner

What is also very sad is something Mattie McGrath said yesterday in the new socailly distanced Dail.

He said we should probably have to go abroad for an expert 2nd opinion as we have successfully shut down any dissenters from within the HSE....he is spot on about that!!!

This is a National Crisis at this stage....

eastie17

Jinglejangle69 wrote: »

I'm sorry but he is making decisions that affect 6 million people.

And clearly after today most of those 6 million have no idea why he has made those decisions.

Decisions that is a matter of people putting food on the table and paying their mortgage and rent.

I have every right to question his state of mind at the moment.

A gard would ask the same, it's just logic.

Yes but that is the Governments fault, NPHET are an ADVISORY body,not elected representatives, not legislators. The Government are supposed to take their advice, row it into other data points and make decisions based on the full view. I dont agree with NPHET and their approach in this instance, but the fault lies with the Government for completely abdicating responsibility.
Yes they got burned at Christmas but so did most other European countries. Its not a reason to stop doing your job.

AdamD

Deleted User wrote: »

I also see 3 elephants in the room and at least 2 directly relate a certain persons personality. One, maybe two, we’re not allowed speak about.

1. Tony and NPHET’s disdain at antigen testing. A vaccine passport could potentially work with a negative antigen test accepted. However, we won’t entertain this and the Passport will likely fail on a number of grounds if it even gets to the courts. (It won’t). It’s clear they will lockdown again before considering antigens as a tool to reopen schools, colleges and hospitality.

2. NPHET and it’s many members relationship with alcohol. Lest we forget, days into Ireland’s pandemic, Tony hosted an anti alcohol conference. Coupled with a push for MUP, constant comments from Dr Favier with regards to alcohol, and Tony’s tweets, there is a clear disdain towards alcohol.

3. What I see as the major elephant in the room, Tony’s personality. Even tonight, the examiner reporting that he lobbed this grenade on purpose, knowing he wouldn’t be challenged. Tony has a reputation to restore. Every time a cervical scandal survivor or sufferer speaks or wins a court settlement, questions linger about Tony’s much maligned role in the scandal. There is no doubt he has taken charge of Covid, is it to improve his standing? This post will probably be deleted or banned because you are not allowed to mention cervical check scandal in here. But IMO, it’s deeply relevant with regards to his current strongman behaviour.

I think there's a 4th:

6 months into our vaccination programme, between NPHET & The Government they have only decided now that we need an internal vaccine passport. I fundamentally disagree with Ireland using one, but if we are, it should have been developed months ago. Instead they now have 2 weeks to scramble one together (they won't), and likely by the time they have it ready the vast vast majority will be vaccinated anyway.

Its utter incompetence that wouldn't be accepted in Industry

robbiezero

podgeandrodge wrote: »

People need to remember the surge following the recent opening hotels for indoor dining and drinking. Not to mention the other absolutely shocking surge following Sth William St.

Joking aside, what are people's main view on here about the best alternative. Most agree this has gone too far. But what would people propose? It's probably clear enough that opening up to all would cause increase cases - but most seem to agree that these would be in younger people who are not as much at risk. Then there are the 50% vaccinated over 60's at the moment - could Delta at this point cause dramatic increases in hospitalisations in these people? We all agree that talk about new apps is unworkable, there'd be a lot of agro. Trust system is dubious.

When are over 60's fully vaccinated? At that point, really there is no argument. I'm not arguing that the deferral was correct, just now that it is made, asking what factors should end this for once and for all. Some other countries are asking fully vaccinated people from UK to quarantine - what is that about!

As for those crazy predictions........

Open up. In the unlikely event things get a bit hot, close again.
A lot of bluster, hot air and bullsh*t about not wanting to bring back restrictions once they are lifted, They have effectively done that yesterday to a huge backlash and resistance.
At least if you have to do it because of genuine data, people would be likely to accept it

duffman13

Silentcorner wrote: »

What is also very sad is something Mattie McGrath said yesterday in the new socailly distanced Dail.

He said we should probably have to go abroad for an expert 2nd opinion as we have successfully shut down any dissenters from within the HSE....he is spot on about that!!!

This is a National Crisis at this stage....

There appears to be a major imbalance in NPHET alright. The fact that none of them have appeared to discuss or talk through the modelling kind of says it all really

duffman13

AdamD wrote: »

I think there's a 4th:

6 months into our vaccination programme, between NPHET & The Government they have only decided now that we need an internal vaccine passport. I fundamentally disagree with Ireland using one, but if we are, it should have been developed months ago. Instead they now have 2 weeks to scramble one together (they won't), and likely by the time they have it ready the vast vast majority will be vaccinated anyway.

Its utter incompetence that wouldn't be accepted in Industry

Fundamentally you are right. However why do we need to develop one at all when there is one going to be used for international travel from the 19th of July amazes me. Some countries are/did use them domestically too, Israel has a version that works for both.

The talk of developing our own, hits me as we are going to kick back the international travel date too.

It really is perplexing stuff

TefalBrain

An absolute clusterfcuk is what it is.

KrustyUCC

duffman13 wrote: »

Fundamentally you are right. However why do we need to develop one at all when there is one going to be used for international travel from the 19th of July amazes me. Some countries are/did use them domestically too, Israel has a version that works for both.

The talk of developing our own, hits me as we are going to kick back the international travel date too.

It really is perplexing stuff

If they allow the fines for travel to lapse (which apparently they will) people will just go on holidays anyway

daydorunrun

Prediction- government and nphet will concede and compromise on testing to be included for for indoor hospitality and people will think ‘ah that’s fair enough’.

Load of b0ll0x, we’ll be in a situation where we have to have QR codes to access basic human rights- a few months from now the vaccinated will have a red light flash when they try to go in for a bite to eat because their booster is over due. This whole thing is one slippery slope down the back of last year’s conspiracy theories.

alias no.9

duffman13 wrote: »

There appears to be a major imbalance in NPHET alright. The fact that none of them have appeared to discuss or talk through the modelling kind of says it all really

The modelling was not supposed to be discussed with the the plebs, just to scare the politicians.

An absolutely crazy worst case scenario to distract from the fact that the central projections are also massively overstating the risk given the time of year and our ongoing vaccination rates.

I'm sick of people saying things like "I'll listen to the experts" when its very clear that experts in every other country in Europe disagree.

If 1 doctor told me I had cancer and 19 others told me I didn't, I'd be inclined to believe the 19.

First Up

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm sick of people saying things like "I'll listen to the experts" when its very clear that experts in every other country in Europe disagree.

If 1 doctor told me I had cancer and 19 others told me I didn't, I'd be inclined to believe the 19.

I think if 19 told you that you had cancer and one said you didn't, you would chose to believe the one.

Doctor Jimbob

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm sick of people saying things like "I'll listen to the experts" when its very clear that experts in every other country in Europe disagree.

If 1 doctor told me I had cancer and 19 others told me I didn't, I'd be inclined to believe the 19.

I've given up engaging as they're clearly either on a wind up or too dense to be worth having a discussion with. Should we trust the experts in most major democracies or the arrogant gobshíte who had faced calls to resign for his antics before COVID even began? It's a tough one all right :rolleyes:

seamus

podgeandrodge wrote: »

Joking aside, what are people's main view on here about the best alternative. Most agree this has gone too far. But what would people propose? It's probably clear enough that opening up to all would cause increase cases

The best alternative would have been to open up Monday with vaccinated indoors only. On a trust basis, because that's all we have. But maintaining all the other measures we had before; limited capacity, masks, etc.

If they really insist on it, they can work on a verification system urgently and bring it in when it's ready. As it stands, there will be nothing functional ready by the 19th, they'll have to open anyway in order to make travel work, and they've pissed people off for nothing.

Open up other non-alcohol indoor environments - especially those where checking vax status is not relevant; cafes, play centres, exercise classes etc; no vaccination requirement, just capacity limits, ventilation requirements and the rest.

Open all private indoor events to allow 25 to attend. 50 if alcohol is not being served.

Stay like that until the end of August. Review then and consider if it needs to be maintained until the end of September, or if the vaccination requirement can be dropped.

Nermal

The modelling software and parameters should be public domain.

padd b1975

rusty cole wrote: »

yes 100% the old discredit them and attack their views.
Verona was well able for her and correct in calling peer review as
the only way. It's very easy to predict high deaths of any respiratory virus
going into winter when all deaths are deaths with Covid!!!

I like Verona when she called out the insurance cartels' who ran her business into the ground, she's a tough cookie and has no fear, she wont be silenced by the old "as an elected representative do you dare question the great and powerful OZ"

Just on Verona's business...If you pay peanuts you get monkeys.

FintanMcluskey

seamus wrote: »

The best alternative would have been to open up Monday with vaccinated indoors only. On a trust basis, because that's all we have. But maintaining all the other measures we had before; limited capacity, masks, etc.

If they really insist on it, they can work on a verification system urgently and bring it in when it's ready. As it stands, there will be nothing functional ready by the 19th, they'll have to open anyway in order to make travel work, and they've pissed people off for nothing.

Open up other non-alcohol indoor environments - especially those where checking vax status is not relevant; cafes, play centres, exercise classes etc; no vaccination requirement, just capacity limits, ventilation requirements and the rest.

Open all private indoor events to allow 25 to attend. 50 if alcohol is not being served.

Stay like that until the end of August. Review then and consider if it needs to be maintained until the end of September, or if the vaccination requirement can be dropped.

Forgive me for thinking there is an undercurrent running through your posts

It’s not complicated what Ireland needs to do, there is no great mystery behind it, just follow the lead of any other, or all, countries in Europe.

We’re about 15 months behind because of nPHEt, but if we start implementing what other eu countries did in summer 2020 we should start to catch up by next Summer

duffman13

First Up wrote: »

I think if 19 told you that you had cancer and one said you didn't, you would chose to believe the one.

I dont think the vast majority of people no matter how deluded would believe that. People spin to hope granted but when the science in the rest of the world is reacting differently to Ireland, we need to look at our science

Calling that NPHET modelling science or even modelling is actually insulting

seamus

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

Forgive me for thinking there is an undercurrent running through your posts

You don't have to ask for forgiveness, you're right.

Alcohol leads to poor decision making. Half of us are only on this planet because someone made a poor decision after a few drinks.

The impact of alcohol in environments that require people to make better decisions, cannot be ignored.

I love my pints as much as the next man. But I'm not going to pretend that there's no harm in letting people get together indoors with a few drinks. It increases the risk of transmission.

The risk that poses needs to be mitigated with additional measures.

Ideally we would be able to do what other European countries are doing and have a internal covid passport. But we very explicitly ruled that out early on, and thus we have to deal with tougher restrictions on indoor mixing.

podgeandrodge

MM July 2020: ""We have to work to learn to live with COVID while keeping the levels low but making sure that there’s as near normal activity as possible."

feelings

That risk disappears when you drink at tables outside of course :rolleyes:

seamus wrote: »

You don't have to ask for forgiveness, you're right.

Alcohol leads to poor decision making. Half of us are only on this planet because someone made a poor decision after a few drinks.

The impact of alcohol in environments that require people to make better decisions, cannot be ignored.

I love my pints as much as the next man. But I'm not going to pretend that there's no harm in letting people get together indoors with a few drinks. It increases the risk of transmission.

The risk that poses needs to be mitigated with additional measures.

Ideally we would be able to do what other European countries are doing and have a internal covid passport. But we very explicitly ruled that out early on, and thus we have to deal with tougher restrictions on indoor mixing.

seamus

feelings wrote: »

That risk disappears when you drink at tables outside of course :rolleyes:

Being outside is one of those mitigations I talk about. We (now) know the virus is airborne. Ventilation is one of the most important things one can do, and you can't get more ventilated than outside.

The risk is drastically reduced when you drink outside, yes. It's that simple.

big syke

seamus wrote: »

You don't have to ask for forgiveness, you're right.

Alcohol leads to poor decision making. Half of us are only on this planet because someone made a poor decision after a few drinks.

The impact of alcohol in environments that require people to make better decisions, cannot be ignored.

I love my pints as much as the next man. But I'm not going to pretend that there's no harm in letting people get together indoors with a few drinks. It increases the risk of transmission.

The risk that poses needs to be mitigated with additional measures.

Ideally we would be able to do what other European countries are doing and have a internal covid passport. But we very explicitly ruled that out early on, and thus we have to deal with tougher restrictions on indoor mixing.

Are you actually for real? So almost 4 billion people are alive due to alcohol?

Im not even gonna bother to tear that one apart...

seamus

big syke wrote: »

Are you actually for real? So almost 4 billion people are alive due to alcohol?

Im not even gonna bother to tear that one apart...

I knew someone would get sand in their vagina over some throwaway hyperbole.

Multipass

KrustyUCC wrote: »

If they allow the fines for travel to lapse (which apparently they will) people will just go on holidays anyway

People are going now anyway, this restriction is eroding any reluctance some would have had to lie to the Gardai. I’ll do it, and I plan to soon, without an ounce of conscience. The only people who can’t lie their way out of Dublin are those with kids.

Stormyteacup

KrustyUCC wrote: »

If they allow the fines for travel to lapse (which apparently they will) people will just go on holidays anyway

Just for posterity I’ll reiterate that it looks to me like NPHET are hellbent on preventing travel in and out of the country as much as they can.

They may well believe they are acting in good faith for the good of public health. But since EU diluted their power to decide travel restrictions for this island they will pull out all the stops to keep travel at bay as long as possible.

No indoor dining is a deterrent in itself for incoming tourists. But more importantly, if Ireland are still restricted as we are currently by July 19th, that’s a reason acceptable to EU for us to delay digital cert.

Keeping restrictions is a means to heavily restrict travel for leisure purposes throughout the Summer. Next-up will be messaging that your foreign holiday will mean putting children’s education at risk.

feelings

Cinemas are open. Zero ventilation. No consistency with the advice we're being fed.

seamus wrote: »

Being outside is one of those mitigations I talk about. We (now) know the virus is airborne. Ventilation is one of the most important things one can do, and you can't get more ventilated than outside.

The risk is drastically reduced when you drink outside, yes. It's that simple.

timmyntc

feelings wrote: »

Cinemas are open. Zero ventilation. No consistency with the advice we're being fed.

And dont forget hotel bars & dining. No vaccine required there.

seamus

feelings wrote: »

Cinemas are open. Zero ventilation. No consistency with the advice we're being fed.

Are you drinking in the cinema?

I get the feelings that you don't have any kind of consistent idea of exactly what it is that you want here and you're just trying to point out ways that everything is wrong.

timmyntc

seamus wrote: »

Are you drinking in the cinema?

I get the feelings that you don't have any kind of consistent idea of exactly what it is that you want here and you're just trying to point out ways that everything is wrong.

So ventilation only matters if you're having a pint?

I suppose covid waits to see if youre drinking or not before trying to spread