Covid 19 Part XXXV-956,720 ROI (5,952 deaths) 452,946 NI (3,002 deaths) (08/01) Read OP

is_that_so

Lumen wrote: »

That doesn't address my question about why it works elsewhere but can't here.

Is "sitting in for a coffee" not considered a basic everyday activity in Berlin or Copenhagen?

This is like the question of why the Scandinavian model of x, y or z won't work here - because we are not them and don't think like them. Vintners and restaurants are against it, naturally, and if you can't remember the various street gatherings outdoors then you have no idea how an Irish crowd behaves.

Lumen

lucernarian wrote: »

The critical difference is the inability for people to be tested negative to take part, while they cannot get access to vaccines themselves. This is an unprecedented move except I guess PR China, and even there, vaccines are available to the whole adult population. Is that the example you think we should follow?

Why do you bring up China when we have examples in the EU? Hyperbole.

seamus

Sweet.Science wrote: »

Agreed. Recipe for disaster . Kids requesting groups of adults leave because they have no proof of vaccination for their steak and chips .

It's nonsense

Still doesn't answer the question of why.

On one hand you have people bemoaning the fact that Irish people won't protest because they're passive and compliant, and yet for some reason entry requirements can't work in Ireland due to some kind of indescribable cultural anti-authoritarianism.

Both can't be true.

It works all over Europe. If anything, the Irish have proven ourselves to be distinctly more European than British or American in our approach to society and personal freedoms, and we're far more likely to do right by wider society than we are to engage in egotistical ramblings about our right to be an asshole to everyone else.

Can anyone point to any similar scenario that fell on its face because Irish people are culturally special?

Sweet.Science

seamus wrote: »

Still doesn't answer the question of why.

On one hand you have people bemoaning the fact that Irish people won't protest because they're passive and compliant, and yet for some reason entry requirements can't work in Ireland due to some kind of indescribable cultural anti-authoritarianism.

Both can't be true.

It works all over Europe. If anything, the Irish have proven ourselves to be distinctly more European than British or American in our approach to society and personal freedoms, and we're far more likely to do right by wider society than we are to engage in egotistical ramblings about our right to be an asshole to everyone else.

Can anyone point to any similar scenario that fell on its face because Irish people are culturally special?

I'm not qualified to explain the complexity of Irish people .

is_that_so

seamus wrote: »

Still doesn't answer the question of why.

On one hand you have people bemoaning the fact that Irish people won't protest because they're passive and compliant, and yet for some reason this can't work in Ireland due to some kind of cultural anti-authoritarianism.

Both can't be true.

It works all over Europe. If anything, the Irish have proven ourselves to be distinctly more European than British or American in our approach to society and personal freedoms, and we're far more likely to do right by wider society than we are to engage in egotistical ramblings about our right to be an asshole to everyone else.

Can anyone point to any similar scenario that fell on its face because Irish people are culturally special?

It has been a stated policy not to do so and now all of a sudden it is. That in tandem with the ludicrous number sets for a poor mood. It also doesn't help that the government clearly doesn't want to do it. That too has filtered through.

MerlinSouthDub

Just reflecting on the decision to postpone the 5th July reopening.

Thoughts now as follows

- It is the right decision to postpone. We are not progressed enough with vaccinations to reopen, and the rapid case growth in the UK with the delta variant is scary

- in 3 weeks time we will know a lot more about how things will go in the UK. It might be fine, they might reach a peak in case numbers and there might be no big rise in hospital numbers. It's definitely worth waiting to see what happens there.

- the idea of a vaccine passport for indoor dining is bananas. It's unenforceable and not fair. Quite bizarre that NPHET introduced this idea now, never having mentioned it in previous letters. Speaking as somone who will be fully vaccinated by July 19th, I'd actually rather keep things closed until end of July and then reopen for everyone. 80% plus will be vaccinated with a first dose by then and we should know based on UK experience what will happen.

- I find it quite odd that NPHET mention we have the 5th highest case numbers in Europe, but provide no comment on why that might be the case. Is it perhaps possible that other countries have used strategies which we haven't to reduce case numbers e.g. widespread use of antigen testing!

ednwireland

lucernarian wrote: »

The critical difference is the inability for people to be tested negative to take part, while they cannot get access to vaccines themselves. This is an unprecedented move except I guess PR China, and even there, vaccines are available to the whole adult population. Is that the example you think we should follow?

just bring in the german system where you get 48hours if you get a negative test. oh wait that would involve actually bringing in a system. where our gov like to announce things an never deliver (in the hope events overtake them)

is_that_so

MerlinSouthDub wrote: »

Just reflecting on the decision to postpone the 5th July reopening.

Thoughts now as follows

- It is the right decision to postpone. We are not progressed enough with vaccinations to reopen, and the rapid case growth in the UK with the delta variant is scary

- in 3 weeks time we will know a lot more about how things will go in the UK. It might be fine, they might reach a peak in case numbers and there might be no big rise in hospital numbers. It's definitely worth waiting to see what happens there.

- the idea of a vaccine passport for indoor dining is bananas. It's unenforceable and not fair. Quite bizarre that NPHET introduced this idea now, never having mentioned it in previous letters. Speaking as somone who will be fully vaccinated by July 19th, I'd actually rather keep things closed until end of July and then reopen for everyone. 80% plus will be vaccinated with a first dose by then and we should know based on UK experience what will happen.

- I find it quite odd that NPHET mention we have the 5th highest case numbers in Europe, but provide no comment on why that might be the case. Is it perhaps possible that other countries have used strategies which we haven't to reduce case numbers e.g. widespread use of antigen testing!

One might not dispute the pause but it has been shoddy communication along with a riser that these claimed numbers may well impact other best-laid plans.

seamus

is_that_so wrote: »

It has been a stated policy not to do so and now all of a sudden it is. That in tandem with the ludicrous number sets for a poor mood. It also doesn't help that the government clearly doesn't want to do it. That too has filtered through.

Sweet.Science wrote: »

I'm not qualified to explain the complexity of Irish people .

OK. I don't think the question can be asked any other way, so I can only assume you believe it's unworkable, but can't actually say why.

You're entitled to have that opinion.

ginoginelli

Sweet.Science wrote: »

Agreed. Recipe for disaster . Kids requesting groups of adults leave because they have no proof of vaccination for their steak and chips .

It's nonsense

It's not nonsense. Its just a new concept. Once its accepted and normalized it will be just like needing a ticket to get into a gig. There is plenty of kids in those setting stamping tickets etc.

Just like seatbelts, the smoking ban, masks etc, people will eventually just get on with it.

Bsharp

seamus wrote: »

Still doesn't answer the question of why.

On one hand you have people bemoaning the fact that Irish people won't protest because they're passive and compliant, and yet for some reason entry requirements can't work in Ireland due to some kind of indescribable cultural anti-authoritarianism.

Both can't be true.

It works all over Europe. If anything, the Irish have proven ourselves to be distinctly more European than British or American in our approach to society and personal freedoms, and we're far more likely to do right by wider society than we are to engage in egotistical ramblings about our right to be an asshole to everyone else.

Can anyone point to any similar scenario that fell on its face because Irish people are culturally special?

I'd agree, if it's a smooth process Irish people will generally do whatever they can to help businesses open up to support them safely as possible. If it means dropping into a pharmacy to get a check for a few euro then vast majority will go with it. Outliers to this will be the same as always.

Sweet.Science

MerlinSouthDub wrote: »

Just reflecting on the decision to postpone the 5th July reopening.

Thoughts now as follows

- It is the right decision to postpone. We are not progressed enough with vaccinations to reopen, and the rapid case growth in the UK with the delta variant is scary

- in 3 weeks time we will know a lot more about how things will go in the UK. It might be fine, they might reach a peak in case numbers and there might be no big rise in hospital numbers. It's definitely worth waiting to see what happens there.

- the idea of a vaccine passport for indoor dining is bananas. It's unenforceable and not fair. Quite bizarre that NPHET introduced this idea now, never having mentioned it in previous letters. Speaking as somone who will be fully vaccinated by July 19th, I'd actually rather keep things closed until end of July and then reopen for everyone. 80% plus will be vaccinated with a first dose by then and we should know based on UK experience what will happen.

- I find it quite odd that NPHET mention we have the 5th highest case numbers in Europe, but provide no comment on why that might be the case. Is it perhaps possible that other countries have used strategies which we haven't to reduce case numbers e.g. widespread use of antigen testing!

How do you know we aren't far enough with vaccinations ? (lets forget we opened last year with none)

How far along will we have to be ?

Can you explain your reasoning

is_that_so

ednwireland wrote: »

just bring in the german system where you get 48hours if you get a negative test. oh wait that would involve actually bringing in a system. where our gov like to announce things an never deliver (in the hope events overtake them)

If NPHET said so they would. Like everyone else they are being guided or led by the science.

lucernarian

Lumen wrote: »

Why do you bring up China when we have examples in the EU? Hyperbole.

I'm not aware of any examples that match the Irish criteria internationally, except a trial program in Israel. The closest I could find was China. Could you provide examples? As was mentioned lots of times, in Germany you need a negative antigen test to enter such indoor venues if you don't have a vaccine. Not only are Ireland not allowing this use, hundreds of thousands of young adults do not have the opportunity to get vaccinated? Are you struggling to understand this?

ednwireland

is_that_so wrote: »

If NPHET said so they would. Like everyone else they are being guided or led by the science.

sarcasm ???

Vicxas

https://www.thejournal.ie/hospitality-antigen-testing-5481608-Jun2021/

Here comes the climb down from the mountain of sh1t they made for themselves

Sweet.Science

ginoginelli wrote: »

It's not nonsense. Its just a new concept. Once its accepted and normalized it will be just like needing a ticket to get into a gig. There is plenty of kids in those setting stamping tickets etc.

Just like seatbelts, the smoking ban, masks etc, people will eventually just get on with it.

We will see so . What about people who can't be vaccinated for medical reasons ? Do we ban them indefinitely ?

Because once its in it won't be a short term thing

Lumen

lucernarian wrote: »

I'm not aware of any examples that match the Irish criteria internationally, except a trial program in Israel. The closest I could find was China. Could you provide examples? As was mentioned lots of times, in Germany you need a negative antigen test to enter such indoor venues if you don't have a vaccine. Not only are Ireland not allowing this use, hundreds of thousands of young adults do not have the opportunity to get vaccinated? Are you struggling to understand this?

Yes, I misunderstood your post.

lucernarian

ednwireland wrote: »

just bring in the german system where you get 48hours if you get a negative test. oh wait that would involve actually bringing in a system. where our gov like to announce things an never deliver (in the hope events overtake them)

Yep, have to agree 100% with that take.

political analyst

https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2021/0630/1232137-coronavirus-ireland-latest/

Sinn Féin accused the Government of pursuing a plan that gives zero consideration to young people.

Party leader Mary Lou McDonald said the hospitality sector had been marched to the top of the hill and down again amid chaos in Government.

She said young people have been told they can serve their elders but they cannot have a drink or meal themselves afterwards and this is divisive.

Ms McDonald said the Government was stubbornly failing to look at the obvious solution, which was antigen testing.

Perhaps this is the answer to Mary Lou's question.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/rapid-antigen-tests-open-to-manipulation-immunologist-warns-1.4594932

Holohan said that antigen is less accurate than PCR.

Rapid antigen tests are open to manipulation when carried out by the person being tested, according to consultant immunologist Dr Mary Keogan. For this reason, self-testing is not used in any jurisdiction.

Dr Keogan showed the committee two tests she had manipulated, one with a buffer but no sample to get a negative result, the other with tonic water to get a false positive.

Internationally, the claims made by manufacturers of antigen tests about their sensitivity and specificity tended not to be borne out, she argued. Independent evaluations of the performance of the tests was needed.

Evaluating these tests is extremely labour intensive, she pointed out. For example, it took 80 nurses working 12-hour days to test 5,000 people who attended a pilot concert in Barcelona in March.

Four forms of PCR test have failed to meet the criteria for use in hospitals, Dr Keogan said.

Dr Ronan Glynn said that no study has been done on antigen testing anywhere at all.

There is not evidence to back their use internationally because other countries have not be able to do these studies to the required standard.

MerlinSouthDub

Sweet.Science wrote: »

How do you know we aren't far enough with vaccinations ? (lets forget we opened last year with none)

How far along will we have to be ?

Can you explain your reasoning

Well, there's no right answer to this stuff. 67% of people have a first dose, 44% 2 doses. These numbers will be 80% and 70% by end of July, that's a big difference. I think it makes sense to wait a few weeks. I think it would be hugely dispiriting to reopen and then have to bring restrictions back, like they are doing in Portugal right now.

I know people are sick of hearing just a another few weeks. But another few weeks at this stage makes a big difference at the rate we are vaccinating.

is_that_so

ednwireland wrote: »

sarcasm ???

Not the first bit, likely to be factual. NPHET are completely entrenched on some things.

lucernarian

Lumen wrote: »

Yes, I misunderstood your post.

No worries. There's hundreds of thousands of people, my friends and family included, like everyone here has I bet, and they've been told you can work inside a bar but not go to a pub through no fault of their own. As Seamus rightly said, the current model was already proven to be inaccurate for the past month, and introducing discriminatory legislation (imo) is the response?

Sweet.Science

MerlinSouthDub wrote: »

Well, there's no right answer to this stuff. 67% of people have a first dose, 44% 2 doses. These numbers will be 80% and 70% by end of July, that's a big difference. I think it makes sense to wait a few weeks. I think it would be hugely dispiriting to reopen and then have to bring restrictions back, like they are doing in Portugal right now.

I know people are sick of hearing just a another few weeks. But another few weeks at this stage makes a big difference at the rate we are vaccinating.

Well the goalposts keep moving . 70-80% may not be enough . Also a new variant could come along and we would have to see how other countries get on with it for a couple of months first

It will never be the perfect time

MerlinSouthDub

is_that_so wrote: »

One might not dispute the pause but it has been shoddy communication along with a riser that these claimed numbers may well impact other best-laid plans.

Oh I fully agree. Awful communication, both from NPHET and government.

bucketybuck

Vicxas wrote: »

https://www.thejournal.ie/hospitality-antigen-testing-5481608-Jun2021/

Here comes the climb down from the mountain of sh1t they made for themselves

Speaking during Leaders’ Questions, Taoiseach Micheál Martin said the threshold set by the National Public Health Emergency Team (NPHET) for the hospitality sector is “a very high one”.

Jesus christ, when will this spineless coward remember that he is supposed to be in charge and not the ****ing advisory group. :mad:

Lumen

lucernarian wrote: »

No worries. There's hundreds of thousands of people, my friends and family included, like everyone here has I bet, and they've been told you can work inside a bar but not go to a pub through no fault of their own. As Seamus rightly said, the current model was already proven to be inaccurate for the past month, and introducing discriminatory legislation (imo) is the response?

Agreed. For the avoidance of doubt, I've no issue with a covid pass for indoor dining and pubs, as long as it includes cheap or free antigen testing.

Bsharp

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MerlinSouthDub wrote: »

Well, there's no right answer to this stuff. 67% of people have a first dose, 44% 2 doses. These numbers will be 80% and 70% by end of July, that's a big difference. I think it makes sense to wait a few weeks. I think it would be hugely dispiriting to reopen and then have to bring restrictions back, like they are doing in Portugal right now.

I know people are sick of hearing just a another few weeks. But another few weeks at this stage makes a big difference at the rate we are vaccinating.

I take your point and largely agree. My position centred around getting the right people vaccinated as part of any strategy. However, what you've described above is not what was presented, discussed or agreed between NPHET and the government; from what I can gather anyway.

funnydoggy

MerlinSouthDub wrote: »

These numbers will be 80% and 70% by end of July, that's a big difference.

Wasn't this revised downwards with the lower delivery volume?

ShooterSF

seamus wrote: »

Can anyone point to any similar scenario that fell on its face because Irish people are culturally special?

Take a shift in a, I'd wager just about any, local pub this weekend and tell me how blue in the face you are from telling people they have to wait for someone to come to them to take a drinks order and bring it out. Something that works all over the world. People don't like change, that's not an Irish phenomenon. Heck I'm sure there are plenty in this thread who broke one or more of the guidelines in the pubs.