Covid 19 Part XXXV-956,720 ROI (5,952 deaths) 452,946 NI (3,002 deaths) (08/01) Read OP

hmmm

AdamD wrote: »

But these are being used in other countries...

NPHET/The Government have consistently shown no appetite to try and make things work. Its too easy for them to just say no.

I agree with you. But even if the Government decided to over-rule NPHET in the morning, it would still take time to put the systems in place and get them tested - which antigen test do we allow, which test detects Delta etc.

If you think checking a vaccine card at the door is hard, wait until pubs and restaurants are told they need to check test results, "but only from the following list of vendors and with the following criteria".

Vaccination certs are the only short-term option I can see, other than over-ruling NPHET entirely and there is no government which is going to do this for a second time.

seamus

zackory wrote: »

What has insurance / health and safety got to do with it.

If the HSA finds out that the business is not engaging in necessary health measures - such as making a reasonable effort to ensure customers are vaccinated, then they can reprimanded or shut down.

If the pub has to close due to an outbreak, their business continuity insurance claim will check to see whether they were verifying vaccine status. If the insurer thinks the pub was ignoring the health guidelines they'll refuse to pay out, and may even cancel their policy.

If the pub is well known in the area for flaunting the public health guidelines, they might be shut down by the Gardai and lose their licence. Like D2.

zackory

seamus wrote: »

If the HSA finds out that the business is not engaging in necessary health measures - such as making a reasonable effort to ensure customers are vaccinated, then they can reprimanded or shut down.

If the pub has to close due to an outbreak, their business continuity insurance claim will check to see whether they were verifying vaccine status. If the insurer thinks the pub was ignoring the health guidelines they'll refuse to pay out, and may even cancel their policy.

If the pub is well known in the area for flaunting the public health guidelines, they might be shut down by the Gardai and lose their licence. Like D2.

Firstly we are talking about more than pubs, this applies to everything from McDonalds to the village takeaway to a supermarket with a few tables and chairs for people to drink a cup of coffee etc.

Secondly covid cover has been written out of every insurance policy so you won't be getting paid if its closed due to an outbreak.

I doubt the HSA will be in a position to enforce the vaccination requirement, and neither will the guards TBH.

Klonker

hmmm wrote: »

From a practical point of view evidence of vaccinations makes the most sense as a short-term measure if NPHET are adamant about indoor being unsafe.

We can argue for the next few months about antigen tests, or wearing an onion on your belt, or whatever other alternative people come up with, but that's of no use to businesses who otherwise will not be allowed open - they are being very badly led by those who think they can pressure the government into ignoring the health advice.

At the moment we have too many people who are being unrealistic about what the government can do in the face of clear medical advice, have too many random ideas about what they would do and think we should spend weeks debating this, and are rejecting all other alternatives.

Comparing antigen testing to onions on your belt, you can't actual believe what you're writing. You're right it's too late for antigen testing but that's on NPHET and to a smaller extent government. My point was you compared our vaccine cert to the ones in other countries and its not even close, ours is way stricter. Theirs only discriminates against positive covid people, ours discriminates against the half of the population least at risk to the virus. You've repeated this numerous times the last 2 days knowing it's not true to support your position.

Government can do lots of things, first being an independent review of NPHETs modelling.

seamus

zackory wrote: »

Firstly we are talking about more than pubs, this applies to everything from McDonalds to the village takeaway to a supermarket with a few tables and chairs for people to drink a cup of coffee etc.

Sure. It shouldn't. I've said before that once there's no alcohol involved, indoor business should be resuming. They've made an utter balls of this by pushing everything back when it's only pubs and restaurants they need to be looking at.

And when the dust settles, I'm expecting it to go that way.

I doubt the HSA will be in a position to enforce the vaccination requirement, and neither will the guards TBH.

Just like it's been impossible to enforce the mask requirement?

hmmm

Klonker wrote: »

Government can do lots of things, first being an independent review of NPHETs modelling.

One of the groups mentioned for a review was the ECDC. The ECDCs own modelling of Delta is even more extreme than NPHETs. We could also commission some other mathematicians and statisticians to to review it, we should have an answer in a few months - that's not going to get the pubs open in mid-July.

ShooterSF

seamus wrote: »

We can all invent stories that make our point for us.

If the business took a booking for 12 and didn't make the vaccine requirement clear at the time, and didn't take a deposit, then more fool them.

Sorry Seamus I've agreed with your points on many threads over the years on this site but this is just naive. Lets assume a business does all those things and yet the scenario happens.
How do you see a conversation with a group that turn up and some don't have certs and ID to prove they belong to them even after it was explained over the phone when booking that they need them and who have a reservation and lets say a 30 euro deposit (which again is still a huge hit for the business versus serving them) being refused and being told they're not getting the deposit back?
Best case they say ok thanks for explaining and stroll off and never come near your business again. And that case is as likely as NPHET's projected worst case for numbers.

is_that_so

Beanybabog wrote: »

Interesting they publish it the day after saying AZ and J&J will be given to young people. Reminds me of the take it or back of the queue attitude to the over 60s

It suggests a greater urgency to get to people who are prepared to sign up and show up. AZ/J&J decision is more related to the NPHET giant numbers puzzle. Next week at least on that.

Sweet.Science

seamus wrote: »

If the HSA finds out that the business is not engaging in necessary health measures - such as making a reasonable effort to ensure customers are vaccinated, then they can reprimanded or shut down.

If the pub has to close due to an outbreak, their business continuity insurance claim will check to see whether they were verifying vaccine status. If the insurer thinks the pub was ignoring the health guidelines they'll refuse to pay out, and may even cancel their policy.

If the pub is well known in the area for flaunting the public health guidelines, they might be shut down by the Gardai and lose their licence. Like D2.

No insurance company will cover covid BI claims . That ship has sailed and they will never be caught for it again

Very grey area to determine if someone is abiding by Public health measures when it comes to vaccination status

rm212

https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2021/0630/1232272-coronavirus-cmo/

CMO Tony Holohan
"He said that without vaccination certs, indoor dining and drinking could have remained shut beyond September."

Who does he think he is, to make comments like that? The government are definitely letting the power go to his head, as clearly he thinks he is the dictator of Ireland... you're lucky I'm allowing you to dine indoors if you've been vaccinated, otherwise it would have been at least September.

alentejo

452 new cases today. Welcome to the 4th wave.

ninebeanrows

alentejo wrote: »

452 new cases today. Welcome to the 4th wave.

Shock horror there was a case rise today after last few days.

Hard not to be skeptical of all this ****e now

MadYaker

marno21 wrote: »

Tony Holohan should not be rejecting ideas. Tony Holohan should be outlining advice (privately) to Government whose job it is to reject ideas.

This has gone beyond too far now. The Government are reliant on a doctor and are running the country on whatever he decides, whereby all his concerns are on one single issue which is the transmission of one virus. There appears to be no consideration for the financial side of things either, everything comes down to "Covid infections".

The main thing that worries me is how accepting of this the Irish public have become. This is absolutely outrageous.

Could you imagine the reception in 2018 if we had shut down indoor hospitality out of concern for flu infections.

I don't think people are that accepting of it to be honest. Everyone is going nuts as far as I can tell. The gov will be back tracking a week or two. They are so out of touch it's unreal.

amandstu

ninebeanrows wrote: »

Shock horror there was a case rise today after last few days.

Hard not to be skeptical of all this ****e now

Got any of that sand so we can all bury our heads?

Klonker

hmmm wrote: »

One of the groups mentioned for a review was the ECDC. The ECDCs own modelling of Delta is even more extreme than NPHETs. We could also commission some other mathematicians and statisticians to to review it, we should have an answer in a few months - that's not going to get the pubs open in mid-July.

Their projections were in terms of Europe, not Ireland. They mention about getting vulnerable fully vaxes. We have huge uptake in the vulnerable groups, all over 55s who want a vaccine are likely to have 2 doses by 19th July. Other countries are hitting headwinds in terms of take up, our uptake of vaccines is staying extremely high though obviously gets lower the lower the age group.

I really don't think it would take long to review the modelling. As well as that the government should ask NPHET for more details on their modelling. What's the probability of each scenario? How does it change with not opening until 19th July but opening fully then? What is the modelling like for opening 19th for vaccinated? It just feels like here is data which supports what we always wanted to do, take it or leave it. Thats not how modelling should be done, especially for something as important as this.

KrustyUCC

https://twitter.com/McConnellDaniel/status/1410272784127778816

Either Martin mislead cabinet or the info given to the cabinet subcommittee was wrong

Either way a monumental cock up

Completely unacceptable when NPHET advice and easing of restrictions directly affected by a faulty model

Messi19

Here's George...

ninebeanrows

There are weather models run every day

If government followed and placed their risk assessment against most extreme members we would literally have orange and red warnings every day of the year

NEPHET have washed their hands of interpretation of their data and let politicians freak out over the extreme cases

We need government to acknowledge their mistake here

Yes there is a 1% chance we’ll be in the crap in October but there’s a 80% chance we’ll be grand and a 19 odd percent chance things won’t be good but will be ok

TefalBrain

Somebody is lying and someone needs to be sacked. Completely unacceptable when so much for so many is at stake. If this was a private organisation the culprit would be gone before sundown. Then again a private organisation wouldn't hire any of these idiots.

iamwhoiam

14 in ICU . They wouldn’t even fill a mini bus .

is_that_so

iamwhoiam wrote: »

14 in ICU . They wouldn’t even fill a mini bus .

Two minibuses at present!

aziz

iamwhoiam wrote: »

14 in ICU . They wouldn’t even fill a mini bus .

There is nearly as many on the board of NPHET (38) than there is in hospital

Zebra3

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again.

Increase income tax now!!

Then let’s see how much the restrictions brigade want to keep businesses closed.

Coillte_Bhoy

seamus wrote: »

If the HSA finds out that the business is not engaging in necessary health measures - such as making a reasonable effort to ensure customers are vaccinated, then they can reprimanded or shut down.

If the pub has to close due to an outbreak, their business continuity insurance claim will check to see whether they were verifying vaccine status. If the insurer thinks the pub was ignoring the health guidelines they'll refuse to pay out, and may even cancel their policy.

If the pub is well known in the area for flaunting the public health guidelines, they might be shut down by the Gardai and lose their licence. Like D2.

Plenty of pubs and hotels blatantly ignoring the health measures now, nothing being done, no checks etc and im speaking from experience

Wolf359f

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

Plenty of pubs and hotels blatantly ignoring the health measures now, nothing being done, no checks etc and im speaking from experience

Pubs will be looking to see how they can get a hotel licence. Everyone becomes a resident but chooses not to sleep in the sleeping bag tossed in the corner with a sign 'community sleeping quarters'

alentejo

alentejo wrote: »

452 new cases today. Welcome to the 4th wave.

How many deaths or hospitalisations?

Let’s hope business is not forced closed because some young people have the sniffles.

zackory

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

Plenty of pubs and hotels blatantly ignoring the health measures now, nothing being done, no checks etc and im speaking from experience

Yeah it's rampant. The €9 meal and out afterc1hr 45minutes was widely ignored previously too.

MerlinSouthDub

KrustyUCC wrote: »

https://twitter.com/McConnellDaniel/status/1410272784127778816

Either Martin mislead cabinet or the info given to the cabinet subcommittee was wrong

Either way a monumental cock up

Completely unacceptable when NPHET advice and easing of restrictions directly affected by a faulty model

All of the cabinet sub committee would have met Tony. Unlikely they all got it wrong, more likely Tony did not disclose a pretty important fact

Hellrazer

MerlinSouthDub wrote: »

All of the cabinet sub committee would have met Tony. Unlikely they all got it wrong, more likely Tony did not disclose a pretty important fact

If that's the case he should either resign or be sacked - if it happened in any other country in the world there would be resignations or sackings.

But here in Ireland we don't really do resignations when in a position of power.

Zebra3

[Deleted User] wrote: »

How many deaths or hospitalisations?

Let’s hope business is not forced closed because some young people have the sniffles.

Deaths or hospitalisations??

Ah, come on!!

Why give facts when you can scaremonger and cost people their livelihoods?