Covid 19 Part XXXV-956,720 ROI (5,952 deaths) 452,946 NI (3,002 deaths) (08/01) Read OP

podgeandrodge

It's a bit confusing.

The tests themselves quote over 90% accuracy.

Holohan said the accuracy of these tests is "about 50 per cent in the hands of trained professionals".

Professor Mark Ferguson, director general of Science Foundation Ireland, and chief scientific advisor to the Government, said "taking the sample is very easy to do."

Who is wrong on the accuracy - does Holohan know something that isn't clear to me?
And even if Holohan is correct on accuracy (and the manufacturers are not being truthful, or being economic with the truth), why does Holohan suggest it should be done by trained professionals, whereas Ferguson (and plenty others in the medical field) say it's simple?

Martina1991 wrote: »

It hasn't been approved by the HSE or the government for use and people are wondering why health officials are concerned.

But the actual Lidl test it has been confirmed is "one of 16 antigen tests approved in February for use in the European Union. It is in widespread use in France, Germany, Belgium and Bulgaria".

Now, just because our own HSE haven't given it their stamp of approval wouldn't be high up the list of most people's concerns, if other EU countries have approved it?

Stormyteacup

Martina1991 wrote: »

If it was marketed saying this device is not for use on people with covid symptoms and not very good for those without symptoms, that wouldn't sound very appealing. I don't think supermarkets should be selling unapproved medical devices.


A supermarket is selling a diagnostic test for an infectious virus that people are doing it themselves.

It hasn't been approved by the HSE or the government for use and people are wondering why health officials are concerned.

Okay fair enough - from the pint of view of turning a good profit, it’s a compromised sales tactic, possibly preying on people’s fears.

But there’s no reason pharmacies couldn’t sell these tests with guidance on purchase. It should have been approved long ago by HSE for controlled sale/use.

A clear explanation of their benefits and drawbacks from government and NPHET would go a long way to ensure correct use of antigen tests.

Ficheall

podgeandrodge wrote: »

How are they "dangerous"? Why have other countries allowed (and encouraged) the sale of them? Or have I misunderstood? US FDA rolled them out for home use?

I don't know what the more recent numbers are, but in February

"In the United States, the Food and Drug Administration has granted emergency-use approval for 13 antigen tests, but only one — the Ellume COVID-19 Home Test — can be used in people without symptoms."

Klonker

Let's not test anyone. Let's just all lock ourselves in our rooms and assume we all have the virus and don't come out for 14 days. Once you come out you have to go back in again for 14 days incase you caught it then. I think it's the only safe thing to do as tests aren't 99.9999% accurate. We need to use an abundance of caution here.

Professor Moriarty

Klonker wrote: »

Let's not test anyone. Let's just all lock ourselves in our rooms and assume we all have the virus and don't come out for 14 days. Once you come out you have to go back in again for 14 days incase you caught it then. I think it's the only safe thing to do as tests aren't 99.9999% accurate. We need to use an abundance of caution here.

Fcuk that. That was my life for the past 12 months.

john why

Deeper Blue wrote: »

Selfish anti-vaxxers like you absolutely disgust me. Horrible attitude.

He and his people are the reason we are still in lockdown.

Martina1991

podgeandrodge wrote: »

How are they "dangerous"? Why have other countries allowed (and encouraged) the sale of them? Or have I misunderstood? US FDA rolled them out for home use?

People may think all antigen tests are the same.
They're not. They vary widely in performance.

Lidl are selling 5 for €25. Someone buys other ones off amazon or wish or whatever because they can get a better deal thinking they're all the same. They're not.

It's uncontrolled and undocumented. Using unreliable medical devices in these settings is an unsafe thing to do.

gctest50

Aldi will be selling PCRs next week .....

Meanwhile Covid keeps on giving, now with Mucormycosis



https://m.economictimes.com/news/india/mucormycosis-on-rise-how-this-deadly-black-fungal-infection-is-making-people-blind/amp_articleshow/82480231.cms

Klonker

Klonker wrote: »

Let's not test anyone. Let's just all lock ourselves in our rooms and assume we all have the virus and don't come out for 14 days. Once you come out you have to go back in again for 14 days incase you caught it then. I think it's the only safe thing to do as tests aren't 99.9999% accurate. We need to use an abundance of caution here.

And an abundance of whining from those who cannot hide their dismay that others might take the initiative and purchase a testing kit of their own. We've become a nation of shameless busybodies, miserable control freaks need to get a life.

podgeandrodge

podgeandrodge wrote: »

It's a bit confusing.

The tests themselves quote over 90% accuracy.

Holohan said the accuracy of these tests is "about 50 per cent in the hands of trained professionals".

Professor Mark Ferguson, director general of Science Foundation Ireland, and chief scientific advisor to the Government, said "taking the sample is very easy to do."

Who is wrong on the accuracy - does Holohan know something that isn't clear to me?
And even if Holohan is correct on accuracy (and the manufacturers are not being truthful, or being economic with the truth), why does Holohan suggest it should be done by trained professionals, whereas Ferguson (and plenty others in the medical field) say it's simple?

Martina1991 wrote: »

It hasn't been approved by the HSE or the government for use and people are wondering why health officials are concerned.

But the actual Lidl test it has been confirmed is "one of 16 antigen tests approved in February for use in the European Union. It is in widespread use in France, Germany, Belgium and Bulgaria".

Now, just because our own HSE haven't given it their stamp of approval wouldn't be high up the list of most people's concerns, if other EU countries have approved it?

Ficheall wrote: »

I don't know what the more recent numbers are, but in February

"In the United States, the Food and Drug Administration has granted emergency-use approval for 13 antigen tests, but only one — the Ellume COVID-19 Home Test — can be used in people without symptoms."

Well, I've gone and checked and it appears that the EU seem happy with it as they have listed it as approved at February 2021 - here is the "EU health preparedness: A common list of COVID-19 rapid antigen tests, including those of which their test results are mutually recognised, and a common standardised set of data to be included in COVID-19 test result certificates. Agreed by the Health Security Committee on 17 February 2021"

https://ec.europa.eu/health/sites/default/files/preparedness_response/docs/covid-19_rat_common-list_en.pdf


Based on this criterion, Member States agree that the results of the following rapid antigen tests will be mutually recognised for public health measures:
 Abbott Rapid Diagnostics, Panbio™ COVID-19 Ag Rapid Test
 AMEDA Labordiagnostik GmbH, AMP Rapid Test SARS-CoV-2 Ag
 Becton Dickinson, BD Veritor System for Rapid Deteciton os SARS-CoV-2
 Beijing Lepu Medical Technology, SARS-CoV-2 Antigen Rapid Test Kit (Colloidal
Gold immunochromatography)
 BIOSYNEX SWISS SA, BIOSYNEX COVID-19 Ag BSS
 CerTest Biotect S.L., CerTest SARS-CoV-2 CARD TEST
 Hangzhou Clongene Biotech, Clungene COVID-19 Antigen Rapid Test Kit
 Healgen Scientific Limited, Coronavirus Ag Rapid Test Cassette (Swab)
 LumiraDX UK LTd, LumiraDx SARS-CoV-2 Ag Test
 nal von minden GmbH, NADAL COVID -19 Ag Test
 Quidel Corporation, Sofia 2 SARS Antigen FIA
 SD BIOSENSOR, Inc.; Roche, STANDARD F COVID-19 Ag FIA
 SD BIOSENSOR, Inc.; Roche, STANDARD Q COVID-19 Ag Test
 Siemens Healthineers, CLINITEST Rapid COVID-19 Antigen Test
 Xiamen Boson Biotech Co, Rapid SARS-CoV-2 Antigen Test card



So I don't understand why Martina is saying it is a problem that it "hasn't been approved by the HSE or the government for use and people are wondering why health officials are concerned" as the above suggests the "Lidl" test is approved.


Edit:

Martina1991 wrote: »

People may think all antigen tests are the same.
They're not. They vary widely in performance.

Lidl are selling 5 for €25. Someone buys other ones off amazon or wish or whatever because they can get a better deal thinking they're all the same. They're not.

It's uncontrolled and undocumented. Using unreliable medical devices in these settings is an unsafe thing to do.

But if the Lidl test is EU approved, it's not unreliable? And not sure why, as you said, HSE won't approve it, when it's on the EU agreed approved list?
Sorry if I am misunderstanding.

WoollyRedHat

https://twitter.com/MallowNews/status/1390745838368935936?s=20

Martina1991

podgeandrodge wrote: »

Well, I've gone and checked and it appears that the EU seem happy with it as they have listed it as approved at February 2021 - here is the "EU health preparedness: A common list of COVID-19 rapid antigen tests, including those of which their test results are mutually recognised, and a common standardised set of data to be included in COVID-19 test result certificates. Agreed by the Health Security Committee on 17 February


Based on this criterion, Member States agree that the results of the following rapid antigen tests will be mutually recognised for public health measures:
 Abbott Rapid Diagnostics, Panbio™ COVID-19 Ag Rapid Test
 AMEDA Labordiagnostik GmbH, AMP Rapid Test SARS-CoV-2 Ag
 Becton Dickinson, BD Veritor System for Rapid Deteciton os SARS-CoV-2
 Beijing Lepu Medical Technology, SARS-CoV-2 Antigen Rapid Test Kit (Colloidal
Gold immunochromatography)
 BIOSYNEX SWISS SA, BIOSYNEX COVID-19 Ag BSS
 CerTest Biotect S.L., CerTest SARS-CoV-2 CARD TEST
 Hangzhou Clongene Biotech, Clungene COVID-19 Antigen Rapid Test Kit
 Healgen Scientific Limited, Coronavirus Ag Rapid Test Cassette (Swab)
 LumiraDX UK LTd, LumiraDx SARS-CoV-2 Ag Test
 nal von minden GmbH, NADAL COVID -19 Ag Test
 Quidel Corporation, Sofia 2 SARS Antigen FIA
 SD BIOSENSOR, Inc.; Roche, STANDARD F COVID-19 Ag FIA
 SD BIOSENSOR, Inc.; Roche, STANDARD Q COVID-19 Ag Test
 Siemens Healthineers, CLINITEST Rapid COVID-19 Antigen Test
 Xiamen Boson Biotech Co, Rapid SARS-CoV-2 Antigen Test card

But if the Lidl test is EU approved, it's not unreliable? And not sure why, as you said, HSE won't approve it, when it's on the EU agreed approved list?
Sorry if I am misunderstanding.

These devices will be approved for the purpose they were made for.

This is the product information from this company

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://cdn02.plentymarkets.com/8ufygep7ztd4/propertyItems/99_86_Boson_Biotech_Schnelltest.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiJkviwtr3wAhX5QhUIHXvvBBsQFjAFegQIBRAC&usg=AOvVaw2xNQ2yhuW5o9qOnbP5GMpj

Go to page 6 for its Instructions for use.

normanoffside

Regina Doherty has now publicly criticised Prof Nolan for his tweet.

I think he may have overstepped the mark on this one.

PhoneMain

normanoffside wrote: »

Regina Doherty has now publicly criticised Prof Nolan for his tweet.

I think he may have overstepped the mark on this one.

Regina, like Shane Ross have all the answers now they're out of power.....

NH2013

Martina1991 wrote: »

I don't think supermarkets should be selling unapproved medical devices.


A supermarket is selling a diagnostic test for an infectious virus that people are doing it themselves.

It hasn't been approved by the HSE or the government for use and people are wondering why health officials are concerned.

It has been approved by the EU and carries the CE quality mark on it.

I don't see the fuss with these tests, if they catch an extra 20-30 cases that wouldn't have been caught otherwise, great, break those links of transmission.

You're kidding yourself if you think people weren't going to socialise anyways even without these tests, they were anyways, this way at least you may have more of a chance of catching a rogue case before the event than with no testing at all.

Working class heroes

Martina1991 wrote: »

K
Replace the word antigen with HIV, influenza, hepatitis, glucose, thyroid etc etc.

IVDs shouldn't be in the hands of the public and on sale in supermarkets. Its dangerous.

Nonsense

Working class heroes

PhoneMain wrote: »

Regina, like Shane Ross have all the answers now they're out of power.....

Doesn’t make her wrong.

normanoffside

PhoneMain wrote: »

Regina, like Shane Ross have all the answers now they're out of power.....

Well she is still the leader of the Seanad so she is far from irrelevant like Ross

podgeandrodge

Martina1991 wrote: »

These devices will be approved for the purpose they were made for.

This is the product information from this company

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://cdn02.plentymarkets.com/8ufygep7ztd4/propertyItems/99_86_Boson_Biotech_Schnelltest.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiJkviwtr3wAhX5QhUIHXvvBBsQFjAFegQIBRAC&usg=AOvVaw2xNQ2yhuW5o9qOnbP5GMpj

Go to page 6 for its Instructions for use.

Thanks. I'm not totally following though - while the document says it's for use in healthcare settings, it's still HSE approved, not some crap off the internet that nobody knows anything about - but why is Holohan saying it's only 50% effective, and then only in the hands of trained professionals, when others are saying it's simple to use, and why are people on here saying it's dangerous to use?

hmmm

Martina1991 wrote: »

People may think all antigen tests are the same.
They're not. They vary widely in performance.

Lidl are selling 5 for €25. Someone buys other ones off amazon or wish or whatever because they can get a better deal thinking they're all the same. They're not.

It's uncontrolled and undocumented. Using unreliable medical devices in these settings is an unsafe thing to do.

Public health have lost this battle, they need to find a better answer now than "no". We've seen in the past few weeks that the public have moved well ahead of them and I admit that is dangerous - but snarky tweets aren't the way to win the public back.

It was interesting to hear Gottlieb in the US interviewed over the weekend. He has been a very measured and realistic commentator throughout this, and he shocked his interviewer by suggesting that many states in the US should consider lifting indoor mask requirements. His argument was that if public health officials could show that they would move aggressively to lift restrictions if they were no longer required, it would give the public more confidence in them if they had to reimpose restrictions later in the year. Something for us to consider.

podgeandrodge

It was stated on here that the Lidl tests "have not been approved by the HSE or the government for use and people are wondering why health officials are concerned".

But it does seem fair to say that they are approved for use. Unless I'm misunderanding what Martina has posted (and I could well be!) the only difference seems to be that they are designed for use by HCW's rather than at home. But if they are as simple to use as they appear to be, that's not much of a difference.

I still don't understand why they are EU accepted as over 90% accuracy but Holohan said the accuracy of these tests is "about 50 per cent in the hands of trained professionals".

Admit to being confused, but the public health service negativity against these does not seem to be balanced by facts.

normanoffside

podgeandrodge wrote: »

It was stated on here that the Lidl tests "have not been approved by the HSE or the government for use and people are wondering why health officials are concerned".

But it does seem fair to say that they are approved for use. Unless I'm misunderanding what Martina has posted (and I could well be!) the only difference seems to be that they are designed for use by HCW's rather than at home. But if they are as simple to use as they appear to be, that's not much of a difference.

I still don't understand why they are EU accepted as over 90% accuracy but Holohan said the accuracy of these tests is "about 50 per cent in the hands of trained professionals".

Admit to being confused, but the public health service negativity against these does not seem to be balanced by facts.

Yes they are approved by the European Commission and have 93.8% sensitivity and 100% specificity according to trials done in Germany.

https://ec.europa.eu/health/sites/default/files/preparedness_response/docs/covid-19_rat_common-list_en.pdf

JRant

I hope the irony of Nolan calling anything else "snake oil" isn't lost on the general public. Here's a man, who has repeatedly released utter garbage "projections" for well over a year now. The brass neck and sense of entitlement just drips from that tweet.

Here's an idea for the good professor, mind your own business with what people are doing with their own lives and money.

Was also great to see Michael Mina call out his nonsense.

Wolf359f

podgeandrodge wrote: »

It was stated on here that the Lidl tests "have not been approved by the HSE or the government for use and people are wondering why health officials are concerned".

But it does seem fair to say that they are approved for use. Unless I'm misunderanding what Martina has posted (and I could well be!) the only difference seems to be that they are designed for use by HCW's rather than at home. But if they are as simple to use as they appear to be, that's not much of a difference.

I still don't understand why they are EU accepted as over 90% accuracy but Holohan said the accuracy of these tests is "about 50 per cent in the hands of trained professionals".

Admit to being confused, but the public health service negativity against these does not seem to be balanced by facts.

From my understanding, they are approved in the EU for 'public health measures' so not in the private home as such.

When %'s start getting thrown around, you really need to know the exact details. 90% accuracy vs 50% is that symptomatic vs asymptomatic, self administered vs HCW administered etc...

There are reports, remember was it Liverpool doing mass antigen testing and it failed to pickup a high % of positive cases, could have been over 40%.
England has been offering a few free antigen tests a week to the population, yet they still record ~2k cases a day (obviously nobody is using them)
Then you have Slovakia doing mass testing the entire population with antigen tests, yet it didn't curb their infection.

There's a lot more to it than that. But I really believe the CMO and Nolan were just concerned the public would rely on antigen tests too much and assume a negative test meant they were negative. PCR results state something like no Covid detected, they don't say negative. the Antigen tests actually say it's negative. If people used antigen test results correctly, as in a positive is a positive, so they know what to do and a negative result doesn't change the fact. So going to a BBQ with a negative antigen test or without taking one, the person would act the same. There's a worry with a negative antigen test, people may let their guard down.

normanoffside

Wolf359f wrote: »

There's a lot more to it than that. But I really believe the CMO and Nolan were just concerned the public would rely on antigen tests too much and assume a negative test meant they were negative......So going to a BBQ with a negative antigen test or without taking one, the person would act the same. There's a worry with a negative antigen test, people may let their guard down.

He made the exact same argument against wearing masks a year ago

https://twitter.com/rtenews/status/1248683715733131264?s=21

podgeandrodge

Wolf359f wrote: »

From my understanding, they are approved in the EU for 'public health measures' so not in the private home as such.

When %'s start getting thrown around, you really need to know the exact details. 90% accuracy vs 50% is that symptomatic vs asymptomatic, self administered vs HCW administered etc...

There are reports, remember was it Liverpool doing mass antigen testing and it failed to pickup a high % of positive cases, could have been over 40%.
England has been offering a few free antigen tests a week to the population, yet they still record ~2k cases a day (obviously nobody is using them)
Then you have Slovakia doing mass testing the entire population with antigen tests, yet it didn't curb their infection.

There's a lot more to it than that. But I really believe the CMO and Nolan were just concerned the public would rely on antigen tests too much and assume a negative test meant they were negative. PCR results state something like no Covid detected, they don't say negative. the Antigen tests actually say it's negative. If people used antigen test results correctly, as in a positive is a positive, so they know what to do and a negative result doesn't change the fact. So going to a BBQ with a negative antigen test or without taking one, the person would act the same. There's a worry with a negative antigen test, people may let their guard down.

Yep, that's fair enough, and there would be the risk of letting guard down there is no doubt. But that would apply regardless of whether the test was administered by you yourself or by a HCW. Holohan threw out 50% without any context, and this, in tandem with Nolan suggesting the kits were shíte, suggests emotional (for whatever reason) rather than scientific response.

I do believe that Martina (with all due respect) saying they "have not been approved by the HSE or the government for use and people are wondering why health officials are concerned" suggests they are crap as well in a similar manner, at least without context.

Wolf359f

normanoffside wrote: »

He made the exact same argument against wearing masks a year ago

https://twitter.com/rtenews/status/1248683715733131264?s=21

I won't get into a mask debate. We've all seen people wear them wrong or be stuffing them into pockets and taken them back out etc... The issue now is antigen testing.
I can swab my cat and get a negative result (yes I know some cats have tested positive) but I can then show that result to a friend and he would assume I'm covid free.

The same antigen tests are used for travel, but by christ, you don't just turn up with the little swab thing showing a negative result. It's administered by someone else.

The original Lidl tweet had all the hallmarks of a PaddyPower advert. They were promoting to have a BBQ. Which is fine but why the antigen testing? we're not supposed to be mixing outdoors, why have an antigen test for a BBQ with people from the same household?

Widdensushi

Wolf359f wrote: »

I won't get into a mask debate. We've all seen people wear them wrong or be stuffing them into pockets and taken them back out etc... The issue now is antigen testing.
I can swab my cat and get a negative result (yes I know some cats have tested positive) but I can then show that result to a friend and he would assume I'm covid free.

The same antigen tests are used for travel, but by christ, you don't just turn up with the little swab thing showing a negative result. It's administered by someone else.

The original Lidl tweet had all the hallmarks of a PaddyPower advert. They were promoting to have a BBQ. Which is fine but why the antigen testing? we're not supposed to be mixing outdoors, why have an antigen test for a BBQ with people from the same household?

6 people from 3 households can meet outdoors from today.

Wolf359f

Widdensushi wrote: »

6 people from 3 households can meet outdoors from today.

3 days after Lidl was selling their tests, they could have at least waited for Monday for optics.

FintanMcluskey

normanoffside wrote: »

He made the exact same argument against wearing masks a year ago

https://twitter.com/rtenews/status/1248683715733131264?s=21

:pac:

That is laughable stuff, I’m sure antigen tests will become a legal requirement in Ireland yet

How these guys still have credibility with even a minority of the population baffling

At least healthcare professionals/scientists around the globe are calling them out now

NPHET do seem to follow different science to every other nation across the globe